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Poll _How often do you train to failure??

How often do you train to failure??

  • Total voters
    254
So far im the only guy that voted "Never"... cause I train solo and it would suck trying to get 350 pounds off of my chest if I got pinned, lol. :chomp:
 
mr.nitro said:
on every set always. ill lift till I can't get another rep, lower the weight rest a little and do it again.
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Instead you should try to start with lower wiehgt (warmup) and end with a weight you can manage on your own (working set), always increase the working set and your muscles will grow to adapt.
 
immortalis said:
So far im the only guy that voted "Never"... cause I train solo and it would suck trying to get 350 pounds off of my chest if I got pinned, lol. :chomp:
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You dont need to attain muscle failure with heavy weights. I recently started doing my usual routine of lifting heavy weights. Then the last two sets with bench press for example I lighten the weight and do twenty five reps then immediately take off that weight and do 50 reps with just the bar. You will laugh at how funny you probably look struggling with a 45 bar but you will feel it for sure. The pumps you get are crazy the results of this I will report back later but I am hopeful and have a good feeling with this method. I always lift by myself too.
 
CO B-man said:
You dont need to attain muscle failure with heavy weights. I recently started doing my usual routine of lifting heavy weights. Then the last two sets with bench press for example I lighten the weight and do twenty five reps then immediately take off that weight and do 50 reps with just the bar. You will laugh at how funny you probably look struggling with a 45 bar but you will feel it for sure. The pumps you get are crazy the results of this I will report back later but I am hopeful and have a good feeling with this method. I always lift by myself too.
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I've been doin 5x5 for about 4 months now. I should change it up. I usually do 275, 275, 295, 305 and 315. Lately since I have been cutting I've lost some strength and sometimes I have to rack it after the 4th rep on the last set :worried:
 
immortalis said:
I've been doin 5x5 for about 4 months now. I should change it up. I usually do 275, 275, 295, 305 and 315. Lately since I have been cutting I've lost some strength and sometimes I have to rack it after the 4th rep on the last set :worried:
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I started doing that same thing about 5 weeks ago. No different only now at the end the last two I do one set of 25 and immediately one of 50. Like I said I can barely lift the bar when I am done. Try it one time and see what you think. My muscles on the 5x5 were rarely sore the next day since I changed and combined the two I can feel it again. I believe it is because 5x5 is moreso targetting your slow twitch muscles and by doing the light weight high reps at the end targetts your fast twitch muscles. getting both types of muscle fibers. I just started it and love it but like I said I will report back on the results some other time when I have had enough time with it if you want to know.
 
usually wide grip pulldowns, close grip, some kind of row and then super set straigh arm pulldowns with db shrugs.

3 or 4 things for chest

1 or 2 for shoulders

3 for biceps

3 for legs, sometimes ill throw in hacks


usually 2 things for tris
 
galaxy said:
usually wide grip pulldowns, close grip, some kind of row and then super set straigh arm pulldowns with db shrugs.

3 or 4 things for chest

1 or 2 for shoulders

3 for biceps

3 for legs, sometimes ill throw in hacks


usually 2 things for tris
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really?
shit you must do 8 sets , i dont understand that workout at ALL, how can you increase each week?
 
im sorry , i fucked that up. I do 3 or 4 sets per excersize and 3 or 4 excersizes per bodypart. Last set of each excersize is to failure. No with squats i will just do warm up sets until i get to my main work set. Same for behind the neck, and bench. Everything else i do is sets of 8 and pyramid up in weight until my last set. I do back/bis on mon, chest/should/tris on wed and legs on fri.
 
Last workset for each bodypart is usually close.

training to failure on every set is a good way to spin your wheels imo
 
galaxy said:
im sorry , i fucked that up. I do 3 or 4 sets per excersize and 3 or 4 excersizes per bodypart. Last set of each excersize is to failure. No with squats i will just do warm up sets until i get to my main work set. Same for behind the neck, and bench. Everything else i do is sets of 8 and pyramid up in weight until my last set. I do back/bis on mon, chest/should/tris on wed and legs on fri.
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That's cool man, basically my workout right there. Chest,Tri/Off/Back,Bi/off/Legs,Shoulders/Off, repeat

Flatbench-65x12, 95, 125, 165/170/ 135/175/ 180/ 185 (4x12)
Incline DB- 40, 45, 50, 55/ 50, 60/ 50, 60 (4x8)
Dips- 5x6, 15, 25, 35/ 40/ 45/ 50/ 55 (4x6)
Closegrip- 65x10, 85, 105, 125/ 130/ 135/ 140 (4x10)
Tricep Extension- 4x8 10, 15, 20, 25 (4x8)
Ropedown-10, 20, 30x12 // x6 20, 30, 40 (3x6)
Triceo Dips- (1xmax)
And I just added cable crossovers, standing flystyle. (4x8) 20,25,30,35

Deadlift- 185, 225, 275, 355 x6/ 365x3, 405x1/ 365x5/ 315x6, 365x6/
135, 225, 315, 370x5 (4x6)
Bentover Row- 65, 85, 105, 125x8/ 130/ 135/ 140/ 145 (4x8)
PullUp- 3x8/ 4x8/ 4x8/ 4x8/ 4x8
Seated Row- 160x8/165/ 170/ 175 // Chainsaw-50,55,60,65 x6 (4x6)
BarbellCurl-50,55,60 x8 45,50,55,60 (4x6)
Standing Dumbbell- 12.5, 15, 17.5, 20/x6 15, 20, 25 30/ * (4x6)
Seated Hammer- 15, 17.5, 20, 25,/x6 15, 20, 25 30/ * (4x6)
Shrugs-10x 85, 90, 95, 100/ 105/ 85, 90, 95, 100, 105, 110/ * (6x10)


Squat- 65, 95, 135, 185x 16/ 17/ 18/ 19 (4x * )
Leg press-180, 230, 270, 350/ 360/ 370/ 380 (4x8)
Stifflegged-65, 95, 135, 185x6/ 190/ 195/ 200 (4x6)
Leg extension-4x10 100, 130, 160, 190/ 195/ 200 (4x10)
Leg Curl-4x10 55, 70, 80, 95/ 100 (4x10)
Barbell Military-4x6 60, 80, 100, 120/ 125/ 130/ 135 (4x6)
Front Raise4x6 15, 20, 25, 30 (4x6)
Lateral Raise4x6- 15, 20, 25, 30(x7) (4x6)
Rear Delt Raise3x8 10,15,20/20(x10) (3x8)
Calves a few different ones)
 
on tren things are a different story.

depends on the mood too I guess
 
In everything I do, I go until I fail. Then I quit.

It's my secret to success.

Seriously, though. I have traditionaly done every set until failure with the exception of the warm up set. After reading this thread, I am reconsidering that.

Well, it's good to switch it up every now and then. Keep them muscles guessing.
 
you train to failure if you can't train high frequency.
training to failure is not possible every day or even every other day.
 
Training to failure is a great idea BUT doing negative reps past failure is the way to go. Pumps ae crazy and size and strength gains are fast.
 
This study seems to suggest that not training to failure is at least as effective as training to failure (though personally I nearly always train to failure):


Differential effects of strength training leading to failure versus not to failure on hormonal responses, strength, and muscle power gains.

Izquierdo M, Ibanez J, Gonzalez-Badillo JJ, Hakkinen K, Ratamess NA, Kraemer WJ, French DN, Eslava J, Altadill A, Asiain X, Gorostiaga EM.

Studies, Research and Sport Medicine Center, Government of Navarra, Spain. [email protected]

The purpose of this study was to examine the efficacy of 11 wk of resistance training to failure vs. nonfailure, followed by an identical 5-wk peaking period of maximal strength and power training for both groups as well as to examine the underlying physiological changes in basal circulating anabolic and catabolic hormones. Forty-two physically active men were matched and then randomly assigned to either a training to failure (RF; n = 14), nonfailure (NRF; n = 15), or control groups (C; n = 13). Muscular and power testing and blood draws to determine basal hormonal concentrations were conducted before the initiation of training (T0), after 6 wk of training (T1), after 11 wk of training (T2), and after 16 wk of training (T3). Both RF and NRF resulted in similar gains in 1-repetition maximum bench press (23 and 23%) and parallel squat (22 and 23%), muscle power output of the arm (27 and 28%) and leg extensor muscles (26 and 29%), and maximal number of repetitions performed during parallel squat (66 and 69%). RF group experienced larger gains in the maximal number of repetitions performed during the bench press. The peaking phase (T2 to T3) after NRF resulted in larger gains in muscle power output of the lower extremities, whereas after RF it resulted in larger gains in the maximal number of repetitions performed during the bench press. Strength training leading to RF resulted in reductions in resting concentrations of IGF-1 and elevations in IGFBP-3, whereas NRF resulted in reduced resting cortisol concentrations and an elevation in resting serum total testosterone concentration. This investigation demonstrated a potential beneficial stimulus of NRF for improving strength and power, especially during the subsequent peaking training period, whereas performing sets to failure resulted in greater gains in local muscular endurance. Elevation in IGFBP-3 after resistance training may have been compensatory to accommodate the reduction in IGF-1 to preserve IGF availability.
 
heavy_duty said:
dont forget assisted reps and static holds too but this is not for the novice and also you now need 7 days rest.
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This is the truth. After reading an article in MD, I focused on the negatives more than the up side, and DAMN!

Start slow... I blasted my chest so hard I was still sore a week and a half later. I could only do half the reps and took it right to the cusp of failure, not even all the way. This was right in the middle of my cycle, too.

I really think there's a lot of truth to more hypertrophy being triggered on the controlled descent than the lift.
 
on the 5x5 so every third workout and on some exercises on the first day of the week. Not cause im trying to just to meet the requirements ive gota give every thing I can. Sometimes i fail or flail(strugle), usualy when im home due to lack of food. Sometimes I power through the workouts, usualy when im at work (can eat as much as I like).
Work 2 weeks on 2 weeks off at a mine site fly in fly out.
Its almost as if im on a 2 week bulk then 2 week cutting cycle. Can realy tell the diference in workout due to food intake.
 
Never, it is the worst way to train and the best way to get injured.
 
only in the last set of my main movement

and even then it with a slower then normal rep pace.........

but full range
 
I'm not sure I understand the terminology here. Does "failure" mean you need help to complete the rep? Or does "failure" simply mean you can't do anymore safely by yourself?

Yeah, I know. You'd think I'd know this by now.
 
This thread has changed my mind, and I didn't expect that. I had done extensive reading on strength training.
This also explains why someone I know has very good biceps and forearms and he curls only with 40 pounds. I don't know if he had juiced.
There are some vocal fans of that 70's football strength-coach'a 5-5 method ('mad cow' and his followers).

On the other hand, majority of the experienced body builders on this board usually workout one body part once a week. If it takes you that long to recover, then you are going to failure.

Prevention of injury is an important issue to consider because I had done that more than once.
Still, if your objective is not mass but strength and endurance then sets to failure are important. Right now, my last set is with the weight that I know will cause me to fail in not more than 2-3 reps. I have been making good strength and endurance progress but not the muscle mass to my satisfaction.

The real answer probably lies in neither yes or no, but in the middle.
 
LoneTree said:
This thread has changed my mind, and I didn't expect that. I had done extensive reading on strength training.
This also explains why someone I know has very good biceps and forearms and he curls only with 40 pounds. I don't know if he had juiced.
There are some vocal fans of that 70's football strength-coach'a 5-5 method ('mad cow' and his followers).

On the other hand, majority of the experienced body builders on this board usually workout one body part once a week. If it takes you that long to recover, then you are going to failure.

Prevention of injury is an important issue to consider because I had done that more than once.
Still, if your objective is not mass but strength and endurance then sets to failure are important. Right now, my last set is with the weight that I know will cause me to fail in not more than 2-3 reps. I have been making good strength and endurance progress but not the muscle mass to my satisfaction.

The real answer probably lies in neither yes or no, but in the middle.
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If you're gaining the strength and eating exessive calories you will grow.
 
Hammer is very god for failure training but does not even come close to MedX, no matter how big and strong you are.

My trainers back machine cost him $10,000 USD and it is the only one in Canada.
not many gyms can spend 5-10K per machine.
 
I've been training to failure, but I'm not making the gains I'd like to be. I think I might try the drop set superset thing for a few weeks to see what kind of difference that makes
 
littleguy289 said:
I've been training to failure, but I'm not making the gains I'd like to be. I think I might try the drop set superset thing for a few weeks to see what kind of difference that makes
Click to expand...
I almost never train to failure. Listen closely, PROGRESSIVE OVERLOAD, meaning, if your muscle is getting just a TINY bit more stimulus then the workout before, you'll grow. Example 195x12 reps, next week do one more rep, or 5 more pounds.
 
youngguns said:
I almost never train to failure. Listen closely, PROGRESSIVE OVERLOAD, meaning, if your muscle is getting just a TINY bit more stimulus then the workout before, you'll grow. Example 195x12 reps, next week do one more rep, or 5 more pounds.
Click to expand...
Good advice.

It's surprising to me how we lose sight of the basics so frequently and need to be reminded to be put back on course. I guess I've been reading too many magazines.
 
Some good reading on switching things up...Charles poliquin's Poliquins Principles "Successful Methods for Strength and Mass Development". He is an Olympic trainer. Most of you probably know him but for the beginners out there I feel his book is the pot of gold when it comes to putting on mass. Its about 35 US dollars on his website. He now write alot for Ironman magazine too.
 
i wish I could do a couple of sets to failure, or even some negatives or something, but i train alone too. I think I would be a whole lot stronger if I could have a spotter help with those last few reps, those last ones that you barely get are where the glory is, those dig down in your balls make you wanna puke reps. Sometimes i'll ask a passer by to spot me, but I work out at 24 and there's usually not anyone in the gym when i go.
 
I usually do 3 exercises per body part and 4-5 sets per exercise. On the last 1-2 sets per exercise I will train to failure everytime. I lift w/ a partner and usually will do 2-3 reps w/ his assistence after I can't do any more on my own.
 
So far im the only guy that voted "Never"... cause I train solo and it would suck trying to get 350 pounds off of my chest if I got pinned, lol.
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I call Bullshit on 50+ percent of you always training to failure
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When I am on Fina or D-bol I train to failure at least once or twice a week.


I have to force myself to leave the gym, telling myself it is counterproductive to over train.

Seriously, I drink a redline an pop some d-bol an within an hour I can only see the weights,
 
immortalis said:
So far im the only guy that voted "Never"... cause I train solo and it would suck trying to get 350 pounds off of my chest if I got pinned, lol. :chomp:
Click to expand...


I would say the same, but there are body parts that you can go to failure on without a spotter IE. Biceps
 
i do on the last set of every exercise. I also do a drop set for that same set. example. for bench, my last set i'll do 365 to failure, then drop it to 225 then to 135 - each set to failure. great burn
 
23CALIBRO said:
does it differ for you guys if on aas or off. do you go to failure when not on?
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going to failure when you're off is counterproductive in some way because it increases the chance of overtraining.
 
I train to failure about half the time,not every set.
but admittedly I do go to failure pretty often especially when working arms.
 
Since I've been studying for my NSCA Exam, I've switched to still using a low volume, but only going to failure on single joint movements and only on the last set for multi-joint movements. I also hit each muscle twice a week now, but with a lighter load for the multi-joint movements for the 2nd workout of the week. I'll let you know how it goes. Gettin some small strength increases here and there4 so far, now if I can just keep up on the calories.
 
If you go to actual failure on your first working set, you'll never get as big as you can be. You need to end each exercise with the highest weight, even if you only get a few reps in or else your muscles never grow to adapt to heavier weight. Going to failure on every set is more of a cutting/carido exercise than a mass building one. Also, if I'm starting my chest exercise with the incline barbell and I go to failure on my last set there, my flat bench won't be too good, and those fibers won't get a comparable workout as the incline fibers.

The only time I do til failure is after I do my 5 sets of incline, 4 sets of flat bench and some fly's, I'll go to the dumbell incline, take 90-100s and go til I can't move anymore each set. Then your workout is done. Or when I isolate tris or bi's i'll go til failure.

But going to failure on exercise 1, set 1, you will never get equal building of your muscles because the other muscles won't get the same workout
 
snower6 said:
If you go to actual failure on your first working set, you'll never get as big as you can be. You need to end each exercise with the highest weight, even if you only get a few reps in or else your muscles never grow to adapt to heavier weight. Going to failure on every set is more of a cutting/carido exercise than a mass building one. Also, if I'm starting my chest exercise with the incline barbell and I go to failure on my last set there, my flat bench won't be too good, and those fibers won't get a comparable workout as the incline fibers.

The only time I do til failure is after I do my 5 sets of incline, 4 sets of flat bench and some fly's, I'll go to the dumbell incline, take 90-100s and go til I can't move anymore each set. Then your workout is done. Or when I isolate tris or bi's i'll go til failure.

But going to failure on exercise 1, set 1, you will never get equal building of your muscles because the other muscles won't get the same workout
Click to expand...
I go by the same set of principles.
 
I totally believe in the Mike Mentzer theory. Dorian proved that to be extremely effective, he also added that rest/pause principle.
 
Failure is more of a nervous system event than a muscular one -- the nervous system (which causes the muscles to contract via signals from the brain) cuts you off before the muscles are truly 'done'. The real problem with going to failure with regularity is that the nervous system takes longer to recover than the muscles. You can train much more frequently (i.e. squattng 2-3x/week instead of once) by doing more sets short of failure. More frequency = more workload = more stimulus.

I wouldn't say that one should never go to failure, but to do so at nearly every workout is counterproductive. I almost never squat less than twice per week, and I use heavy weight and decent volume. I have made the best gains of my life by avoiding failure for the most part (unless really pushing for a PR or something) and relying on constant, incremental improvements on the big lifts.

Failure is less detrimental on smaller lifts by nature, as there is far less nervous sytem activity involved in a curl than a deadlift or squat.
 
I try and get 3 x 10 reps on all my lifts. it usually results in going til failure. if i get 3 x 10 on all sets i move up in weight.
 
There's no such thing as "failure" unless you drop dead.

There are many ways to stress a muscle -- repping until you can't complete another full rep with a similar weight is just one of them and not necesarily the most exhausting or growth inducing.
 
Nelson Montana said:
There's no such thing as "failure" unless you drop dead.

There are many ways to stress a muscle -- repping until you can't complete another full rep with a similar weight is just one of them and not necesarily the most exhausting or growth inducing.
Click to expand...

I'd consider a muscle failing if it tore in half.

You checking out EF again Nelson?
 
only certain days i cant do legs or chest to failure cause i dont have a spot.. but arms shoulders and back is all done to failure..
 
i have been lifting and coaching for over 23 years, and i now believe that going to failure is counterproductive, and going close but leaving some gas in the tank for the next training session is better.
 
If you're doing a squat or deadlift then a lot of muscles are involved, so when we speak of failure we're talking about exhausting a particular muscle, because not all the muscles involved in a compound exercise fail at once.

Who on this board can say to me that their quads fail first, or their lower back or hips during a squat? When you say your legs fail, which part of your legs? If your supporting tissue goes first, sure you can carry on a less-than-perfect set, working through exhaustion, but is there any good reason to do this?

Training in-the-red is a sure way to need more recovery than you should. Failure means diminishing returns, because the cost in recovery outweighs the benefit of hitting all available supporting muscle tissue. To push past your physical limit you can still stop short of your limit while putting more work into a set while you're at 100%. If you have false limits or don't know your true potential as a lifter, that is a different matter.

On the other hand if you want to drive with four flat tyres running on metal with sparks flying from the wheels, go for it.
 
bigthrower said:
i have been lifting and coaching for over 23 years, and i now believe that going to failure is counterproductive, and going close but leaving some gas in the tank for the next training session is better.
Click to expand...

I agree with you. Most of my tripples I know I can rep them for 5, but I keep adding weight every week little by little.
 
Guinness5.0 said:
Failure is more of a nervous system event than a muscular one -- the nervous system (which causes the muscles to contract via signals from the brain) cuts you off before the muscles are truly 'done'. The real problem with going to failure with regularity is that the nervous system takes longer to recover than the muscles. You can train much more frequently (i.e. squattng 2-3x/week instead of once) by doing more sets short of failure. More frequency = more workload = more stimulus.

I wouldn't say that one should never go to failure, but to do so at nearly every workout is counterproductive. I almost never squat less than twice per week, and I use heavy weight and decent volume. I have made the best gains of my life by avoiding failure for the most part (unless really pushing for a PR or something) and relying on constant, incremental improvements on the big lifts.

Failure is less detrimental on smaller lifts by nature, as there is far less nervous sytem activity involved in a curl than a deadlift or squat.
Click to expand...

^^^^
I second the " I have made the best gains of my life by avoiding failure for the most part (unless really pushing for a PR or something) and relying on constant, incremental improvements on the big lifts."

I know tons of guys that train to failure a couple times a week and they're not progressing even close to as fast I am on the 3x5 program.

:D
 
I used to train to failure on every set. Thought it was what I was supposed to do. Not for me. The last set I now go to failure, such as the 5x5, and this is MUCH better. I am setting personal records and gaining weight. I think training to failure on EVER set is pointless if you are trying to bulk. It is just going to hinder your results IMO
 
going to failure isn't nec always about muscle growth sometimes it's just good for the mind... ie mental toughness
 
every set every time. incorporate negatives and forced reps once or twice a month. we can and do disagree on all most everything but success in training is 100% dependent on INTENSITY.
 
The better my understanding of fitness/fatigue theory and periodization the more lifting makes sense to me.

I used to be a huge fan of training to failure and Mentzer/Arthur Jones.

Now that I have learned more I realize there are major issues with those theories.

It's been documented that training at I believe 55-80% of your 1 rep max uses all your fibers, but that you need enough reps and sets to ensure that you damage them enough to get a positive response.

1-2 all out to failure sets may damage the muscles enough, but it will also exact a heavier than necessary toll on your nervous system.

This is pretty much why you can do a Heavy Duty program with like 4-6 exercises balls out crazy hard for long periods of time, but only if the workout is like once a week to every 9-10 days. It's because you absolutely thrashed your nervous system.

So now what you got is less than optimal frequency, volume and stimulus to your muscles because you're terrorizing your nervous system rather than strengthening it and increasing it's capacity.

This is probably why so many people even with decent physique's can't make it to a really advanced level. They are pounding away their muscles with excessive and redundant volume while at the same time hammering their nervous system by going to failure every set of every exercise.

This is classic over-training.

While HIT and Heavy Duty attempt to address this they go about it the wrong way using a flawed and simplified view of the bodies handling and adaptation to stress.
 
It puts alot of stress in the Central Nervous System. So I train to failure once a week then I start a deload week so my CNS recovers. I have only been lifting for 5 months so my CNS wont take alot of stress.
 
That article is incredibly simplified and doesn't do a very good job at what it's trying to say and even that is questionable.

Let's just say that from my own lifting experiences and having observed others lifting off and on for past 17 years I can say that overtraining is indeed pretty easy to do while training and that training to failure on every set is a great way to bring that about.

True overtraining is something that most lifter's won't ever experience, but reduction in gains from the gym and outright stalled progress for long periods of time is an incredibly common occurance in gyms throughout the world and many, many times it's not related to how hard the lifter is training.

It see lifters all the time that routinely go to failure on all their sets and guess what? Not much has changed in the past 8 months with them.

I'm rapidly approaching the point I am going to surpass a guy at the gym on the bench press because he trains 5x a week using your typical bodybuilder style program and goes to failure on every set. He hasn't leaned out any more than when I first met him. He just told me yesterday that he took 3 days off from the gym and to him that was a looong time and he couldn't wait to get back into the gym. I looked at the guy and said I don't think twice about taking a week off from the gym every now and then or going 3-5 days between lifting sessions. Guess what, I'm still getting stronger.

This kinda shocked the guy. And it's not like he's not trying to get stronger. His body is constantly in a state of fatigue and it's pretty obvious to me what his problem is. I know because I went through the same thing in highschool for the better part of 2 years. I didn't do leg or lowerback work at all for the most part, but I did pretty much all the upperbody exercises and I never got past benching 160lbs for 5 reps at a bodyweight of around 168lbs. I busted my fuckin ass on the exercises I did do. Every set to momentary muscular failure. Pushing each set to the limit was not hard for me to accomplish. I ate alot for my bodyweight at the time. Even though I didn't do direct leg work I still should have gained more bodyweight and gotten stronger than I was. Being in a constant state of physical disrepair from overtraining will literally halt weight gain and strength gain.

Then I got into Mentzer's stuff and bought into his flawed ideas for a looong time. Thankfully a guy by the name of madcow2 posted on this forum years ago and shed light on the subject which drastically changed my training forever and many others, for the better.

Hard work is required to get stronger and bigger, but forcing it is not the way to go. Listening to your body while doing your best to apply known and quantifiable lifting principles is the way to go.

Eh, getting tired of talking about this. Basically I think that article sucked.
 
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