argument with my dad about squats led to an interesting phone call

[JDid23]

So today my dad and i were at dicks getting some crap and we met a guy who had been lifting for 7 years. I was talking to him about my routine, and he said it looked good. My dad and i had been debating about squatting below parallel, and every single trainer at the YMCA told me not to do it. After this guy told me not to do it, my dad was convinced. As we were debating, i brought up Rippetoes name about 4 times, so he looked him up.

He wasn't convinced that Rippetoe was legit, so he decided to call the place where he works. Rippetoe answered the phone, told my dad that what i was telling him was correct, and to make a long story short, they have dinner plans the next time he comes up to NJ. This post is pretty pointless, but it just shocked the hell out of me when my dad asked if it was Mark on the phone, and when rippetoe said "the douche bag at the health spa" about 5 times (not wanting to refer to it as a gym)

 

[SpyWizard]

hahaha..

perceived value and value to a person's health and well being.. training to get on stage or strength training

all are different..

I'd never allow myself or a client to go below parallel.. science even teaches us that when contraction of a muscle ends, and the weight or effort is continued, the weight is transferred to the skeletal system.. tendons and ligaments are part of that system and puts unsafe stress on them..

 

[LucSulla]

hahaha..

perceived value and value to a person's health and well being.. training to get on stage or strength training

all are different..

I'd never allow myself or a client to go below parallel.. science even teaches us that when contraction of a muscle ends, and the weight or effort is continued, the weight is transferred to the skeletal system.. tendons and ligaments are part of that system and puts unsafe stress on them..

So what of the several in-depth studies that show a proper squat done past parallel puts less shear force on the knees than stopping above? Plus, it's not as if once you pass parallel no muscles are involved. Deep squats have added size, strength, and flexibility to my posterior chain.

 

[bblazer]

hahaha..

perceived value and value to a person's health and well being.. training to get on stage or strength training

all are different..

I'd never allow myself or a client to go below parallel.. science even teaches us that when contraction of a muscle ends, and the weight or effort is continued, the weight is transferred to the skeletal system.. tendons and ligaments are part of that system and puts unsafe stress on them..

Are you being serious?

I don't mean to come off ass, nor am I trying to start some flame war.

A properly done (meaning form is correct) full deep below parallel squat is perfectly safe. When you go deep, the quads stop (well not entirely), and the glutes and hams take over.

Not doing a below parallel squat thinking you are over stressing some part of the body is like saying your bench should only be no more than from the sternum up 3-4" so you don't tear a pec.

B-

 

[joe d]

Are you being serious?

I don't mean to come off ass, nor am I trying to start some flame war.

A properly done (meaning form is correct) full deep below parallel squat is perfectly safe. When you go deep, the quads stop (well not entirely), and the glutes and hams take over.

Not doing a below parallel squat thinking you are over stressing some part of the body is like saying your bench should only be no more than from the sternum up 3-4" so you don't tear a pec.

B-

there is a common situation that a lot of people seem to practice. i see it a lot. they go deep and rest for a second in the hole. that is where spy's theory would be correct. if you relax your muscles at any time in a lift something else is bearing the weight (tendons and joints). but that is in any lift. the heavier the load the more taxing it is.

 

[resonator]

I'd never allow myself or a client to go below parallel.. science even teaches us that when contraction of a muscle ends, and the weight or effort is continued, the weight is transferred to the skeletal system.. tendons and ligaments are part of that system and puts unsafe stress on them..

This is impossible. Your weight doesn't transfer anywhere. The stress is always on your muscles through the entire range of motion. Do you understand how muscles work???

 

[resonator]

In studies of muscle activation comparisons between half and full squats, The rectus femoris muscle of the front of the thigh gets hammered twice as hard in the ATG squat as the parallel squat. The main butt muscle, the gluteus maximus, is involved slightly more in the full squat. The main hamstring muscle, the biceps femoris, is involved almost equally in full or half squats.

 

[SpyWizard]

Are you being serious?

I don't mean to come off ass, nor am I trying to start some flame war.

A properly done (meaning form is correct) full deep below parallel squat is perfectly safe. When you go deep, the quads stop (well not entirely), and the glutes and hams take over.

Not doing a below parallel squat thinking you are over stressing some part of the body is like saying your bench should only be no more than from the sternum up 3-4" so you don't tear a pec.

B-

so?? I should write a letter to the sports med doc that both wrote the book and certified me regarding the information pertaining to muscle contraction and effects of supporting heavy weight with the skeletal and supportive systems rather than the muscles that are being used to move the weight??

See?? the same thing goes for benching.. whenever during a movement the plane of motion should never allow the muscle to release the contraction allowing for blood to flood the muscle, at the point where the muscle releases the contraction, thus releasing stress to the muscle the weight is still being moved and or supported.. if not by the muscle, then by the skeletal system..

but that's just his opinion, you've stated yours... I've trained both ways... currently using the afore mentioned information as a guide and am very happy with the results.. both in strength, growth, and recovery..

I'm sure your highschool, or college coach will be happy that you squat in that manner, perhaps when you are 48 yr old you'll still be able to do military press for reps at 315 lbs.. that's where i'm at right now.. but i don't do a lot of squats.. I prefer hip sled as it protects my back better..

see, a simple exchange of ideas.. wait, i supported my statements, you simply said they were wrong and stated the opposite..

 

[SpyWizard]

This is impossible. Your weight doesn't transfer anywhere. The stress is always on your muscles through the entire range of motion. Do you understand how muscles work???

I think so, ever lockout in a bench press??? that's when the muscle releases and the skeletal system is supporting the weight.

Don't believe me ??

try this.. don't lock out at the top or the bottom of a bench, keeping the muscle contracted.. then come say what you think..

 

[djeclipse]

hahaha..

perceived value and value to a person's health and well being.. training to get on stage or strength training

all are different..

I'd never allow myself or a client to go below parallel.. science even teaches us that when contraction of a muscle ends, and the weight or effort is continued, the weight is transferred to the skeletal system.. tendons and ligaments are part of that system and puts unsafe stress on them..

OMG, you are one of the thousands of personal trainers that go around teaching clients bad form, spreading misinformation about what really is proper form.

I feel sorry for anyone that pays for that kind of service.

 

[SouthernLord]

Military press 315? A military press is a standing overhead press with the heals together. Is this what you mean by militay press? I'm not trying to nitpick or be an ass, but people calling anything but a Military press a military press is one of my biggest pet peeves lol. A 315 press in any manner is impressive

so?? I should write a letter to the sports med doc that both wrote the book and certified me regarding the information pertaining to muscle contraction and effects of supporting heavy weight with the skeletal and supportive systems rather than the muscles that are being used to move the weight??

See?? the same thing goes for benching.. whenever during a movement the plane of motion should never allow the muscle to release the contraction allowing for blood to flood the muscle, at the point where the muscle releases the contraction, thus releasing stress to the muscle the weight is still being moved and or supported.. if not by the muscle, then by the skeletal system..

but that's just his opinion, you've stated yours... I've trained both ways... currently using the afore mentioned information as a guide and am very happy with the results.. both in strength, growth, and recovery..

I'm sure your highschool, or college coach will be happy that you squat in that manner, perhaps when you are 48 yr old you'll still be able to do military press for reps at 315 lbs.. that's where i'm at right now.. but i don't do a lot of squats.. I prefer hip sled as it protects my back better..

see, a simple exchange of ideas.. wait, i supported my statements, you simply said they were wrong and stated the opposite..

 

[joe d]

OMG, you are one of the thousands of personal trainers that go around teaching clients bad form, spreading misinformation about what really is proper form.

I feel sorry for anyone that pays for that kind of service.

ef would be an even better place wethout these kind of disrespectful posts. your opinion could have been stated in a much better way.

 

[bblazer]

so?? I should write a letter to the sports med doc that both wrote the book and certified me regarding the information pertaining to muscle contraction and effects of supporting heavy weight with the skeletal and supportive systems rather than the muscles that are being used to move the weight??

See?? the same thing goes for benching.. whenever during a movement the plane of motion should never allow the muscle to release the contraction allowing for blood to flood the muscle, at the point where the muscle releases the contraction, thus releasing stress to the muscle the weight is still being moved and or supported.. if not by the muscle, then by the skeletal system..

but that's just his opinion, you've stated yours... I've trained both ways... currently using the afore mentioned information as a guide and am very happy with the results.. both in strength, growth, and recovery..

I'm sure your highschool, or college coach will be happy that you squat in that manner, perhaps when you are 48 yr old you'll still be able to do military press for reps at 315 lbs.. that's where i'm at right now.. but i don't do a lot of squats.. I prefer hip sled as it protects my back better..

see, a simple exchange of ideas.. wait, i supported my statements, you simply said they were wrong and stated the opposite..

Wow.

You obviously know nothing about me.

Lets start with the facts.

1) I am WAY older than 48
2) I have been powerlifting since I was 20
3) I have 2 masters degrees. One in Nutritional Biochemistry with an emphasis in the transfer of nutrients between the blood/brain barrier, and one in Exercise Physiology.
4) Until 2 years ago I held M2 records in the squat and deadlift
5) I have consulted for 2 NFL strength programs specifically for lineman
6) I have never had any injury due to my workouts or competition
7) I have trained with Rippetoe, Simmons, Bergman, and had the opportunity to get a day with Ed Coan.

All that is just off the top of my head....

You read a book and took a class. Yeee haw.

Don't get into a dick measuring contest with me. I do not know everything, but you have a long way to go to be able to sit at my table and get sarcastic, condescending and patronizing, with me.

I would be happy to discuss why a deep squat is perfectly OK, but I suggest you buy Starting Strength by Rippetoe and read that first. Until then, please let me quote him.

"Anyone who says that full squats are "bad for the knees" has, with that statement, demonstrated conclusively that they are not entitled to an opinion about the matter. People who know nothing about a topic, especially a very technical one that requires specific training, knowledge, and experience, are not due an opinion about that topic and are better served by being quiet when it is asked about or discussed. For example, when brain surgery, or string theory, or the NFL draft, or women's dress sizes, or white wine is being discussed, I remain quiet, odd though that may seem. But seldom is this the case when orthopedic surgeons, athletic trainers, physical therapists, or nurses are asked about full squats. "

In the meantime, I would be happy to pass along to all the people I mentioned above how you believe they are wrong, and you one doc and one book are right.

B-

 

[djeclipse]

ef would be an even better place wethout these kind of disrespectful posts. your opinion could have been stated in a much better way.

Have you seen any of my other posts here? that was cleaned up.

 

[djeclipse]

but i don't do a lot of squats.. I prefer hip sled as it protects my back better..

I find it extremely ironic that you are telling us you know how to squat, your way is "prooven" to be right, and in the same post you tell us that you don't do squats to "protect your back"....

If you were squatting with proper form, your back won't need "protecting".

That alone tells us that you have no clue what a proper squat looks like.

see, a simple exchange of ideas.. wait, i supported my statements, you simply said they were wrong and stated the opposite..

What I see is that you attempted to throw a bunch of bull shit words around, mentioning "medical doctors" to make it seem like you know what you are talking about. When in reality the final statement tells us the true story, you don't know what a proper squat is.

 

[SouthernLord]

Wow.

You obviously know nothing about me.

Lets start with the facts.

1) I am WAY older than 48
2) I have been powerlifting since I was 20
3) I have 2 masters degrees. One in Nutritional Biochemistry with an emphasis in the transfer of nutrients between the blood/brain barrier, and one in Exercise Physiology.
4) Until 2 years ago I held M2 records in the squat and deadlift
5) I have consulted for 2 NFL strength programs specifically for lineman
6) I have never had any injury due to my workouts or competition
7) I have trained with Rippetoe, Simmons, Bergman, and had the opportunity to get a day with Ed Coan.

All that is just off the top of my head....

You read a book and took a class. Yeee haw.

Don't get into a dick measuring contest with me. I do not know everything, but you have a long way to go to be able to sit at my table and get sarcastic, condescending and patronizing, with me.

I would be happy to discuss why a deep squat is perfectly OK, but I suggest you buy Starting Strength by Rippetoe and read that first. Until then, please let me quote him.

"Anyone who says that full squats are "bad for the knees" has, with that statement, demonstrated conclusively that they are not entitled to an opinion about the matter. People who know nothing about a topic, especially a very technical one that requires specific training, knowledge, and experience, are not due an opinion about that topic and are better served by being quiet when it is asked about or discussed. For example, when brain surgery, or string theory, or the NFL draft, or women's dress sizes, or white wine is being discussed, I remain quiet, odd though that may seem. But seldom is this the case when orthopedic surgeons, athletic trainers, physical therapists, or nurses are asked about full squats. "

In the meantime, I would be happy to pass along to all the people I mentioned above how you believe they are wrong, and you one doc and one book are right.

B-

Will you go out with me?

 

[djeclipse]

Will you go out with me?

lol, ya,

That is an impressive list of credentials bblazer, any one of them on their own would be impressive (well except for #1, lol), but combined they are truly amazing.

 

[joe d]

Have you seen any of my other posts here? that was cleaned up.

 

[joe d]

Wow.

You obviously know nothing about me.

Lets start with the facts.

1) I am WAY older than 48
2) I have been powerlifting since I was 20
3) I have 2 masters degrees. One in Nutritional Biochemistry with an emphasis in the transfer of nutrients between the blood/brain barrier, and one in Exercise Physiology.
4) Until 2 years ago I held M2 records in the squat and deadlift
5) I have consulted for 2 NFL strength programs specifically for lineman
6) I have never had any injury due to my workouts or competition
7) I have trained with Rippetoe, Simmons, Bergman, and had the opportunity to get a day with Ed Coan.

All that is just off the top of my head....

You read a book and took a class. Yeee haw.

Don't get into a dick measuring contest with me. I do not know everything, but you have a long way to go to be able to sit at my table and get sarcastic, condescending and patronizing, with me.

I would be happy to discuss why a deep squat is perfectly OK, but I suggest you buy Starting Strength by Rippetoe and read that first. Until then, please let me quote him.

"Anyone who says that full squats are "bad for the knees" has, with that statement, demonstrated conclusively that they are not entitled to an opinion about the matter. People who know nothing about a topic, especially a very technical one that requires specific training, knowledge, and experience, are not due an opinion about that topic and are better served by being quiet when it is asked about or discussed. For example, when brain surgery, or string theory, or the NFL draft, or women's dress sizes, or white wine is being discussed, I remain quiet, odd though that may seem. But seldom is this the case when orthopedic surgeons, athletic trainers, physical therapists, or nurses are asked about full squats. "

In the meantime, I would be happy to pass along to all the people I mentioned above how you believe they are wrong, and you one doc and one book are right.

B-

 

[bblazer]

Will you go out with me?

I thought you would never ask. I've been throwing myself at you!

B-

 

[FunFun]

lol, ya,

That is an impressive list of credentials bblazer, any one of them on their own would be impressive (well except for #1, lol), but combined they are truly amazing.

I think #1 adds 10 fold to his impressiveness.

 

[bblazer]

I think #1 adds 10 fold to his impressiveness.

No, it just makes me old, cranky and in need of viagra.

B-

 

[djeclipse]

I think #1 adds 10 fold to his impressiveness.

Alone, it means he is just old.

But as I said, combined with everything else = amazing.

 

[LucSulla]

In Internet parlance, "Thread delivers!"

 

[Synpax]

Anyone got some peer-reviewed published stuff to throw around or is this continuing to be a dick measuring contest?

 

[bblazer]

Anyone got some peer-reviewed published stuff to throw around or is this continuing to be a dick measuring contest?

I don't know, when you used google, or in your own readings what did you find?

If you haven't done that yet, in Rippetoe's Starting Strength, he lists several independent, peer-reviewed studies done here in the US, and a few others done in Soviet Block countries. I am on vacation right now, so I can't look at my copy and cite them exactly for you.

B-

 

[SpyWizard]

OMG, you are one of the thousands of personal trainers that go around teaching clients bad form, spreading misinformation about what really is proper form.

I feel sorry for anyone that pays for that kind of service.

no, actually i am one of the trainers that teach correct form and make clients happy to give me money..

but you are???

 

[SpyWizard]

Military press 315? A military press is a standing overhead press with the heals together. Is this what you mean by militay press? I'm not trying to nitpick or be an ass, but people calling anything but a Military press a military press is one of my biggest pet peeves lol. A 315 press in any manner is impressive

true enough, i should have said a seated military press, or a modified Arnold press with flat bar

And thanks, it's one of my more impressive moves one i've been working on all winter...

What i like most about it in the seated position is the isolation to the muscle and the support given to the back..

 

[SpyWizard]

Wow.

You obviously know nothing about me.

Lets start with the facts.

1) I am WAY older than 48
2) I have been powerlifting since I was 20
3) I have 2 masters degrees. One in Nutritional Biochemistry with an emphasis in the transfer of nutrients between the blood/brain barrier, and one in Exercise Physiology.
4) Until 2 years ago I held M2 records in the squat and deadlift
5) I have consulted for 2 NFL strength programs specifically for lineman
6) I have never had any injury due to my workouts or competition
7) I have trained with Rippetoe, Simmons, Bergman, and had the opportunity to get a day with Ed Coan.

All that is just off the top of my head....

You read a book and took a class. Yeee haw.

Don't get into a dick measuring contest with me. I do not know everything, but you have a long way to go to be able to sit at my table and get sarcastic, condescending and patronizing, with me.

I would be happy to discuss why a deep squat is perfectly OK, but I suggest you buy Starting Strength by Rippetoe and read that first. Until then, please let me quote him.

"Anyone who says that full squats are "bad for the knees" has, with that statement, demonstrated conclusively that they are not entitled to an opinion about the matter. People who know nothing about a topic, especially a very technical one that requires specific training, knowledge, and experience, are not due an opinion about that topic and are better served by being quiet when it is asked about or discussed. For example, when brain surgery, or string theory, or the NFL draft, or women's dress sizes, or white wine is being discussed, I remain quiet, odd though that may seem. But seldom is this the case when orthopedic surgeons, athletic trainers, physical therapists, or nurses are asked about full squats. "
In the meantime, I would be happy to pass along to all the people I mentioned above how you believe they are wrong, and you one doc and one book are right.

B-

Well, congrats on those accomplishment..

1) my degrees are in criminal justice and computer science
2) been working out since i was 20 yrs old
3) sold my business 2 yrs ago and am semi retired, (still do some consulting) wife got tired of me being at home all the time and since i spend so much time at the gym it was a natural progression.

You'll have to excuse me as I no longer do strong man training, it's just too difficult on the ligaments and tendons, quality of life and life extension is more in line with my interests..

being able to copy paste from a book of someone else opinions means that you can read and believe in what that person says..

I do not train, nor train others to do strong man competitions, you do, and you did and that's great, sport specific training once again is not what I am interested in, nor will i train to it.

just like technology, medical information and what we know of the human body changes at an exponential rate, that which was good and accepted yesterday isn't what is desirable today.

And to finish with this subject, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they usually stink..

 

[resonator]

Analysis of variance (ANOVA) and Tukey post hoc tests indicated a significant difference (p < 0.001*, p = 0.056**) in the relative contribution of the GM during the concentric phases among the partial- (16.9%*), parallel- (28.0%**), and full-depth (35.4%*) squats.
There were no significant differences between the relative contributions of the BF, the VMO, and the VL at different squatting depths during this phase.

This means the weight wasn't transferred anywhere. The weight remained on the muscles throughout the entire range of motion, except for the gluteus maximus which actually increased activity the lower you went...

http://apt.allenpress.com/perlserv/?request=get-abstract&doi=10.1519%2F1533-4287(2002)016[0428%3ATEOBSD]2.0.CO%3B2&ct=1

 

[SpyWizard]

Analysis of variance (ANOVA) and Tukey post hoc tests indicated a significant difference (p < 0.001*, p = 0.056**) in the relative contribution of the GM during the concentric phases among the partial- (16.9%*), parallel- (28.0%**), and full-depth (35.4%*) squats.
There were no significant differences between the relative contributions of the BF, the VMO, and the VL at different squatting depths during this phase.

This means the weight wasn't transferred anywhere. The weight remained on the muscles throughout the entire range of motion, except for the gluteus maximus which actually increased activity the lower you went...

http://apt.allenpress.com/perlserv/?request=get-abstract&doi=10.1519%2F1533-4287(2002)016[0428%3ATEOBSD]2.0.CO%3B2&ct=1

so there ya go.. going deeper activates the glutes..

 

[the_alcatraz]

Guys, please play nice. I would really hate to start handing over timeouts over bs because some people like to be smartasses and are disrespectful to other posters.

I won't say this again.

Thanks.

 

[the_alcatraz]

Djeclipse, I thought my post was very clear.

Providing evidence and argumentation is good....saying someone knows nothing and everything he teaches is bad and that people shouldn't train under him because he will "harm" them is NOT respectful and just means you are harming him.

You both have different opinions...deal with it. It doesn't mean either of you are right or wrong for that matter, it just means you think differently and have different approaches to training.

Last warning.

 

[resonator]

SpyWizard, how do you feel about the study demonstrating that the force remains on the muscle throughout the entire range? Ready to repent?! You can still be saved!

 

[the_alcatraz]

Anyone got some peer-reviewed published stuff to throw around or is this continuing to be a dick measuring contest?

I like this post.

 

[mattu3743]

this thread is very very intresting. me personally i've done a few different types of squats through my short life on this earth. from half ass squats that most people do to parallel squats and to below parallel squats. Going below parellel does put more pressure on ya glutes and hammys. going parallel puts more pressure on your quads and some bootimus maximus lol. and we all know what half ass squats to is to help boost some men's egos.

If im training some one and i know that your joints and ligament in your new arent that quite strong yet you can bet your ass off i'm not letting you go past parallel

if you're bodybuilding and need to get your quads bigger we're going parallel and we're keeping most of the pressure on your quads. Acourse we would go heavy so i wouldnt want to go below parellel because we dont want to bring you're bootymaximus in there.

I dont know if this helps but this is what I think about before i would train a client or myself.

 

[bentoverrow]

So what of the several in-depth studies that show a proper squat done past parallel puts less shear force on the knees than stopping above? Plus, it's not as if once you pass parallel no muscles are involved. Deep squats have added size, strength, and flexibility to my posterior chain.

Even if you squat below parallel, you are still putting the same shear force on the knees as you make the descent to the hole and on the way out of the hole.

 

[djeclipse]

Even if you squat below parallel, you are still putting the same shear force on the knees as you make the descent to the hole and on the way out of the hole.

No, the load is transferred to your hips when you go below parallel (not the knees). Your hips are much better suited for carrying the load than your knees.

 

[LucSulla]

Even if you squat below parallel, you are still putting the same shear force on the knees as you make the descent to the hole and on the way out of the hole.

There was a pretty large, in depth UK study that demonstrated that stopping above parallel put nearly twice as much sheer on the knee as descending below parallel. If I can find it later, I will post it.

 

[ceo]

If im training some one and i know that your joints and ligament in your new arent that quite strong yet you can bet your ass off i'm not letting you go past parallel

Really? I'd just have them start off with a weight they could handle going below parallel with and teach them the correct way to squat.

if you're bodybuilding and need to get your quads bigger we're going parallel and we're keeping most of the pressure on your quads. Acourse we would go heavy so i wouldnt want to go below parellel because we dont want to bring you're bootymaximus in there.

Ah, well! Again, I would just have them use a weight they could handle doing a real squat with. A guy who needs bigger quads most likely could use bigger hams too, as hams are usually an area that needs to be brought up to balance out the upper leg. Not like squatting below parallel doesn't build up quads anyway...lol @ the thought of that.

 

[ceo]

so?? I should write a letter to the sports med doc that both wrote the book and certified me regarding the information pertaining to muscle contraction and effects of supporting heavy weight with the skeletal and supportive systems rather than the muscles that are being used to move the weight??

See?? the same thing goes for benching.. whenever during a movement the plane of motion should never allow the muscle to release the contraction allowing for blood to flood the muscle, at the point where the muscle releases the contraction, thus releasing stress to the muscle the weight is still being moved and or supported.. if not by the muscle, then by the skeletal system..

but that's just his opinion, you've stated yours... I've trained both ways... currently using the afore mentioned information as a guide and am very happy with the results.. both in strength, growth, and recovery..

I'm sure your highschool, or college coach will be happy that you squat in that manner, perhaps when you are 48 yr old you'll still be able to do military press for reps at 315 lbs.. that's where i'm at right now.. but i don't do a lot of squats.. I prefer hip sled as it protects my back better..

see, a simple exchange of ideas.. wait, i supported my statements, you simply said they were wrong and stated the opposite..

you've trained both ways. So, you've locked out at the top of a bench press? Dunno about you, but I find it impossible to lockout with...oh, say 300 lbs., and NOT have my muscles still contracting to control the weight.

If someone were to lockout and manage to overcome their instincts and simply "release" their contracted muscles, that 300 lbs. is going to come crashing down on them. Believing otherwise is ridiculous.

 

[bentoverrow]

No, the load is transferred to your hips when you go below parallel (not the knees). Your hips are much better suited for carrying the load than your knees.

once on the way up you will be at parallel, once on the way down you will be at parallel,

doesnt matter where you stop the movement...you are passing throught that positon twice going below parrael..

dont want to argue.. It doesnt really matter which one you do. if your legs grow and you are not in pain, super.

 

[ceo]

dont want to argue.. It doesnt really matter which one you do. if your legs grow and you are not in pain, (YET!) super.

Yeah, the pain usually comes later, when you're older. But hey, who gives a fuck what happens then, right?? Yeah!!!!1@

 

[bentoverrow]

Yeah, the pain usually comes later, when you're older. But hey, who gives a fuck what happens then, right?? Yeah!!!!1@

its been ten years ...how long shall I wait....

 

[UA_Iron]

What was the conclusion on the relaxing in hole with weight on your back? I have a tendency to do this. I never get any pains from squats, my form is excellent...isn't this essentially similar to a box squat?

 

[DaveTSI]

ugh... i take a short break and have to come back to another thread on this subject.. im not even going to touch this one
i thought u guys would have had everyone on the same (the right) page by now damnit.. u guys know who u are lol

 

[Synpax]

I don't know, when you used google, or in your own readings what did you find?

If you haven't done that yet, in Rippetoe's Starting Strength, he lists several independent, peer-reviewed studies done here in the US, and a few others done in Soviet Block countries. I am on vacation right now, so I can't look at my copy and cite them exactly for you.

B-

Ok, yeah, that's what I'm looking for. Never heard of Rippeto.

 

[djeclipse]

What was the conclusion on the relaxing in hole with weight on your back? I have a tendency to do this. I never get any pains from squats, my form is excellent...isn't this essentially similar to a box squat?

Never relax in the hole!

Powerlifters will pause in the hole as it is a requirement for the lift, but they are never relaxing in the hole. There is a muscle reflex that some lifters can keep for up to 2 seconds, they use this reflex while in the hole waiting to go back up. But in order to keep this muscle reflex you have to keep everything tight, relaxing in the hole is not good.

 

[djeclipse]

once on the way up you will be at parallel, once on the way down you will be at parallel,

doesnt matter where you stop the movement...you are passing throught that positon twice going below parrael..

Have you ever taken a physics class?

Passing through that point and stopping, reversing direction at that point are 2 completely different things.

Going through that position the weight is already moving, at that moment in time you only have to keep the weight moving.

When stopping, reverse direction and then go back up at parallel you are putting a tremendous amount of sheer force on the knees (which are not meant to take that kind of stress). Going below parallel puts all that load on the hips which are better suited for carrying that load.

 

[djeclipse]

ugh... i take a short break and have to come back to another thread on this subject.. im not even going to touch this one
i thought u guys would have had everyone on the same (the right) page by now damnit.. u guys know who u are lol

It is a never ending battle of weightlifting myth, gym rumors and simple ignorance compounded by so called personal trainers with improper training and no desire to actually think for themselves vs proper lifting... there is no end in sight.

 

[artificialaspirations]

mythbusters?

 

[djeclipse]

mythbusters?

ha, ya! I would love to see how they would incorporate some kind of explosives to help bust the squatting myth, lol

 

[bentoverrow]

Have you ever taken a physics class?

Passing through that point and stopping, reversing direction at that point are 2 completely different things.

Going through that position the weight is already moving, at that moment in time you only have to keep the weight moving.

When stopping, reverse direction and then go back up at parallel you are putting a tremendous amount of sheer force on the knees (which are not meant to take that kind of stress). Going below parallel puts all that load on the hips which are better suited for carrying that load.

Im not gonna do this...good luck on your quest!

 

[Big_BK]

It is a never ending battle of weightlifting myth, gym rumors and simple ignorance compounded by so called personal trainers with improper training and no desire to actually think for themselves vs proper lifting... there is no end in sight.

I think the reason 90% of the trainers out there suck is becuase they don't care about the clients becuase they don't care about them selves. The ones that do, do it on their own they don't need to pay someone to hound them to do simple shit.

 

[artificialaspirations]

I've squated both ways and my body tells me below parallel is right. That and I believe those guys in the olympics know what their doing more than a few internet rack curlers.

 

[djeclipse]

I think the reason 90% of the trainers out there suck is becuase they don't care about the clients becuase they don't care about them selves. The ones that do, do it on their own they don't need to pay someone to hound them to do simple shit.

So true, but there are those that truly don't know any better and look to these so called "trainers" for guidance, to be taught proper form. These people simply assume the personal trainer (that charged them money) knows what they are talking about and will teach them proper form. After all they took a course and have some lame "certificate", they must know what is right.

This is why I said I feel sorry for the clients of these personal trainers that truly don't know what proper form is. They are paying for someone to show them and teach them improper form that is actually detrimental to their body.

What is even worse is that the original poster the "personal trainer" that is teaching bad form tells us that he himself doesn't squat to "protect his back". This alone should tell him that something is wrong with the way he is squatting. If your squat form is good as well as the rest of your training, you won't have to worry about "protecting your back"...

And apparently some of the mods don't like hearing things like this as my posts got deleted.

 

[the_alcatraz]

I've squated both ways and my body tells me below parallel is right. That and I believe those guys in the olympics know what their doing more than a few internet rack curlers.

I like this post.

 

[oso0960]

here's an excerpt from Rippetoe's book "Strong Enough?"

"The quadriceps are not the only muscles that are supposed to be involved in the exercise. The hamstring muscles on the back of the thigh attach at the front of the tibia, at the bottom of the knee, wrap around it on both sides and pull back on the knee from below it as they get tight. The adductors connect the groin area of the pelvis to the medial aspect of the femur, and these muscles also pull back on the knee when they tighten, but from above the knee and toward the inside. Both of these muscle groups tighten from behind the knee as the torso leans forward, the knees travel out to stay parallel to the feet, and the hips reach back for correct depth, balancing the forward-pulling stress from the quadriceps and the patellar tendon around the front of the knee. But they only exert this, in the full squat position. At the bottom of the squat, where the hamstrings and adductors are fully stretched there is as much pull on the knee from the posterior as from the anterior. In this position, the quadriceps' knee extension force is balanced by the hamstrings' knee flexion force. At the same time, the adductors have stretched too, and if the knees stay parallel to the feet, as they should, the adductors will get tight and pull on the femurs. This knee-out position anchors the femur so that adductor contraction and hamstring contraction produce hip extension."
"Because the hamstrings attach to the pelvis at the ischial tuberosity, and forward tilting of the top of the pelvis will stretch the hamstrings away from their insertion points at the knee. When the pelvis and the back are properly locked in a flat rigid unit by the back muscles, the forward angle of the torso and pelvis tightens up the hamstrings. At the same time, if the knees are shoved out to the sides at the bottom of the squat, not forward over - or, god forbid, inside - the toes, the adductors are tightened as well. If this is done correctly, there is a slight "bounce" or muscular "rebound" off the hamstrings and adductors at the bottom of the squat, which initiates the upward drive out of the hole. This hip extension is accomplished much more efficiently and much, much more safely for the knee when it occurs frmo this correct position - A POSITION THAT CANNOT BE ACHIEVED UNLESS THE SQUAT IS DEEP.

This is what happens in a half ass squat:

"The only muscles under any stress are the quads, since the hamstrings, glutes, and adductors are not involved due to the limited range of motion. The spine is invariably loaded too heavily, since it is incredibly easy to "squat" big weights if you have to move them only a few inches. The knees are disproportionately subjected to anterior stress, since the lack of depth does not engage the hamstrings and activate their posterior balancing effect. The lower back muscles, used in the full squat to maintain spinal alignment and the back and pelvis angle, get little work in the half squat because it is not deep enough to ever put the low back at much of an angle."

*sorry for mispelled words I typed it as I read it through the book and didn't proofread it.

I could also pull exerpts out of Bill Starr's "The strongest Shall Survive" because he states the same exact thing that full squats are proper. Bill Starr says there is a reason for the "quarter squat" since it overloads the body to be able to handle the heavier weight but strongly cautions that it only be used by an advanced trainee since novices haven't built the supporting strength to handle it.

 

[SouthernLord]

Rip on full squats.......

"The full squat is a perfectly natural position for the leg to occupy. That's why there's a joint in the middle of it, and why humans have been occupying this position, both unloaded and loaded, for millions of years. Much longer, in fact, than quasi-intellectual morons have been telling us that it's "bad" for the knees."

"Anyone who says that full squats are "bad for the knees" has, with that statement, demonstrated conclusively that they are not entitled to an opinion about the matter. People who know nothing about a topic, especially a very technical one that requires specific training, knowledge, and experience, are not due an opinion about that topic and are better served by being quiet when it is asked about or discussed. For example, when brain surgery, or string theory, or the NFL draft, or women's dress sizes, or white wine is being discussed, I remain quiet, odd though that may seem. But seldom is this the case when orthopedic surgeons, athletic trainers, physical therapists, or nurses are asked about full squats"

 

[oso0960]

Rip on full squats.......

"The full squat is a perfectly natural position for the leg to occupy. That's why there's a joint in the middle of it, and why humans have been occupying this position, both unloaded and loaded, for millions of years. Much longer, in fact, than quasi-intellectual morons have been telling us that it's "bad" for the knees."

"Anyone who says that full squats are "bad for the knees" has, with that statement, demonstrated conclusively that they are not entitled to an opinion about the matter. People who know nothing about a topic, especially a very technical one that requires specific training, knowledge, and experience, are not due an opinion about that topic and are better served by being quiet when it is asked about or discussed. For example, when brain surgery, or string theory, or the NFL draft, or women's dress sizes, or white wine is being discussed, I remain quiet, odd though that may seem. But seldom is this the case when orthopedic surgeons, athletic trainers, physical therapists, or nurses are asked about full squats"

lol I remember reading that.

Also, check out a 2 year old when they pick something up from the ground. What do they do? A perfect squat below parallel! It's funny to see that most people actually lose the ability to perform a squat correctly once they get older. I believe it's from sitting and improper posture?

 

[djeclipse]

lol I remember reading that.

Also, check out a 2 year old when they pick something up from the ground. What do they do? A perfect squat below parallel! It's funny to see that most people actually lose the ability to perform a squat correctly once they get older. I believe it's from sitting and improper posture?

It's due to inflexibility as you get older. Most babies can pull their feet over their head like it is nothing. As we get older things get tight, and if we don't stretch we loose all that flexibility.

 

[oso0960]

It's due to inflexibility as you get older. Most babies can pull their feet over their head like it is nothing. As we get older things get tight, and if we don't stretch we loose all that flexibility.

Yes, but people should never have stopped squatting to pick things up. We get lazy and bend over because it's less effort lol

 

[FunFun]

Yes, but people should never have stopped squatting to pick things up. We get lazy and bend over because it's less effort lol

Squatting to pick things up is far too inefficient. I think the only people who squat to pick things up are people who have read somewhere that this is how it should be done. They say it's to protect the back, but the back will eventually become inflexible if it is never flexed.

Damned if I'm going to squat my bodyweight (260 lbs) to pick up a light object from the floor when a quick bend forward can achieve that at a fraction of the energy expenditure (and the resultant wear and tear on bodyparts).

 

[oso0960]

Squatting to pick things up is far too inefficient. I think the only people who squat to pick things up are people who have read somewhere that this is how it should be done. They say it's to protect the back, but the back will eventually become inflexible if it is never flexed.

Damned if I'm going to squat my bodyweight (260 lbs) to pick up a light object from the floor when a quick bend forward can achieve that at a fraction of the energy expenditure (and the resultant wear and tear on bodyparts).

How do you know squatting has more wear and tear on bodyparts than bending over? We both don't have evidence to back up our claim, so both of our opinions are just that..opinions. My opinion comes from this: it just seems that why would a baby have ingraved in their brain to squat to pick something up. It's their instinct, like it should be that way and that's why they do it. It's instinct to cry, etc. Humans weren't supposed to sit around for 8 hours a day and grow to have inactive glutes with tight hip flexors, we were supposed to be up and around searching for food for our family. That's the way I think of it. Our bodies evolve to become the fittest it possibly can be to our environment.

Yes it may be easier to bend over, and you may only use a fraction of the energy to bend over, but the "easier" way is not always the best way... for example.. Why squat below parallel when you can squat above parallel since it takes less effort? But then the easier way puts more stress on the knees unlike the safer, "harder" full squat.

Also, think of it as repetition. Do body weight squats to continually pick something up. then bend over to continually pick something up. Your back will start to hurt from the bending over. I can relate to this because I used to have a job where I had to pick things up all day. You can only bend over so much but squat all day.

 

[SaiBoT]

To me doing squats and taking a dump in the wild it's the same, if I don't go ass to the grass on both it doesn't feel right...

Now to JDid, I live on NJ too, maybe we could all go and have lunch together, take pics and stuff. You caused quite a stir up in here uh?

 

[moya]

How do you know squatting has more wear and tear on bodyparts than bending over? We both don't have evidence to back up our claim, so both of our opinions are just that..opinions. My opinion comes from this: it just seems that why would a baby have ingraved in their brain to squat to pick something up. It's their instinct, like it should be that way and that's why they do it. It's instinct to cry, etc. Humans weren't supposed to sit around for 8 hours a day and grow to have inactive glutes with tight hip flexors, we were supposed to be up and around searching for food for our family. That's the way I think of it. Our bodies evolve to become the fittest it possibly can be to our environment.

Yes it may be easier to bend over, and you may only use a fraction of the energy to bend over, but the "easier" way is not always the best way... for example.. Why squat below parallel when you can squat above parallel since it takes less effort? But then the easier way puts more stress on the knees unlike the safer, "harder" full squat.

Also, think of it as repetition. Do body weight squats to continually pick something up. then bend over to continually pick something up. Your back will start to hurt from the bending over. I can relate to this because I used to have a job where I had to pick things up all day. You can only bend over so much but squat all day.

great post... i agree with your view on the subject...

 

[JDid23]

To me doing squats and taking a dump in the wild it's the same, if I don't go ass to the grass on both it doesn't feel right...

Now to JDid, I live on NJ too, maybe we could all go and have lunch together, take pics and stuff. You caused quite a stir up in here uh?

haha my bad i didn't mean to

I live in bergen county and i think my dad was planning on meeting him in montclair if you have any idea where that is... My dad actually went to school in Newark (Rutgers) but yeah it'd be cool (funny/weird, and a lot of other shit too).

 

[FunFun]

How do you know squatting has more wear and tear on bodyparts than bending over? We both don't have evidence to back up our claim, so both of our opinions are just that..opinions. My opinion comes from this: it just seems that why would a baby have ingraved in their brain to squat to pick something up. It's their instinct, like it should be that way and that's why they do it. It's instinct to cry, etc. Humans weren't supposed to sit around for 8 hours a day and grow to have inactive glutes with tight hip flexors, we were supposed to be up and around searching for food for our family. That's the way I think of it. Our bodies evolve to become the fittest it possibly can be to our environment.

Yes it may be easier to bend over, and you may only use a fraction of the energy to bend over, but the "easier" way is not always the best way... for example.. Why squat below parallel when you can squat above parallel since it takes less effort? But then the easier way puts more stress on the knees unlike the safer, "harder" full squat.

Also, think of it as repetition. Do body weight squats to continually pick something up. then bend over to continually pick something up. Your back will start to hurt from the bending over. I can relate to this because I used to have a job where I had to pick things up all day. You can only bend over so much but squat all day.

Mine is a bit more than opinion. I always bend over to pick stuff up, including 20 kg plates at the gym. I'm 50 years old and back is rock solid. Never have any hint of a back ache and it's strong.

I've noticed that my Asian gf (20 years old) and all her young family also pick stuff up by bending over too. They don't live in the US and have never read any books on how they are supposed to pick stuff up. They do everything instinctually, and instinct dictates that bending over is the way to go. It's so obviously the way to do it I cannot believe anyone started squatting to pick stuff off the floor.

I haven't watched babies pick stuff up, but do a study on kids who haven't been brainwashed yet and I'm sure you'll find they all bend over.

The back is designed to bend and the problem is westerners are constantly brainwashed into believing that they should keep their back straight and not bend. If nature dictated squatting to pick stuff up, then why did humans evolve with a very flexible back? A flexible back is something you will never have if you keep it straight all the time.

You'll end up being the old man with a sore back, not me. It's better you start using commonsense now before it's too late.

 

[ready2rumble]

my brother has a snake...

 

[SaiBoT]

Mine is a bit more than opinion. I always bend over to pick stuff up, including 20 kg plates at the gym. I'm 50 years old and back is rock solid. Never have any hint of a back ache and it's strong.

I've noticed that my Asian gf (20 years old) and all her young family also pick stuff up by bending over too. They don't live in the US and have never read any books on how they are supposed to pick stuff up. They do everything instinctually, and instinct dictates that bending over is the way to go. It's so obviously the way to do it I cannot believe anyone started squatting to pick stuff off the floor.

I haven't watched babies pick stuff up, but do a study on kids who haven't been brainwashed yet and I'm sure you'll find they all bend over.

The back is designed to bend and the problem is westerners are constantly brainwashed into believing that they should keep their back straight and not bend. If nature dictated squatting to pick stuff up, then why did humans evolve with a very flexible back? A flexible back is something you will never have if you keep it straight all the time.

You'll end up being the old man with a sore back, not me. It's better you start using commonsense now before it's too late.

What about sumo wrestlers? Do they squat or bend? They squat until hams touch the calves that's what they do... that's a comfortable position for these superheavyweights in fact their matches start with a deep squat, does it mess their knees? Apparently no... Powerlifters, oly lifters, the most successful weightlifters apparently are all wrong, why? Because some jackass who doesn't even know what a barbell is said so, but it doesn't really matter because the ones of us who do ATG squats won't stop doing them. And those who do half-assed squats will always feel embarrassed near us. And me... I will just make sure that these guys will feel bad everytime I'm under the squat bar.

 

[djeclipse]

Mine is a bit more than opinion. I always bend over to pick stuff up, including 20 kg plates at the gym. I'm 50 years old and back is rock solid. Never have any hint of a back ache and it's strong.

I've noticed that my Asian gf (20 years old) and all her young family also pick stuff up by bending over too. They don't live in the US and have never read any books on how they are supposed to pick stuff up. They do everything instinctually, and instinct dictates that bending over is the way to go. It's so obviously the way to do it I cannot believe anyone started squatting to pick stuff off the floor.

I haven't watched babies pick stuff up, but do a study on kids who haven't been brainwashed yet and I'm sure you'll find they all bend over.

The back is designed to bend and the problem is westerners are constantly brainwashed into believing that they should keep their back straight and not bend. If nature dictated squatting to pick stuff up, then why did humans evolve with a very flexible back? A flexible back is something you will never have if you keep it straight all the time.

You'll end up being the old man with a sore back, not me. It's better you start using commonsense now before it's too late.

This has the be the biggest load of crap I have ever read on this site.

This is a joke right? Who is the alter here?

 

[dabuffguy]

Mine is a bit more than opinion. I always bend over to pick stuff up, including 20 kg plates at the gym. I'm 50 years old and back is rock solid. Never have any hint of a back ache and it's strong.

I've noticed that my Asian gf (20 years old) and all her young family also pick stuff up by bending over too. They don't live in the US and have never read any books on how they are supposed to pick stuff up. They do everything instinctually, and instinct dictates that bending over is the way to go. It's so obviously the way to do it I cannot believe anyone started squatting to pick stuff off the floor.

I haven't watched babies pick stuff up, but do a study on kids who haven't been brainwashed yet and I'm sure you'll find they all bend over.

The back is designed to bend and the problem is westerners are constantly brainwashed into believing that they should keep their back straight and not bend. If nature dictated squatting to pick stuff up, then why did humans evolve with a very flexible back? A flexible back is something you will never have if you keep it straight all the time.

You'll end up being the old man with a sore back, not me. It's better you start using commonsense now before it's too late.

Every PHd doctor who specializes in the back and spine will disagree with you.

Picking up weight with a bent over back is the EASIEST way to injure yourself.

Having an injured lower back, I was specfically told NOT to ever lift anything of significant weight with a curved back.

Come on bro, really?

 

[the_alcatraz]

It's due to inflexibility as you get older. Most babies can pull their feet over their head like it is nothing. As we get older things get tight, and if we don't stretch we loose all that flexibility.

+1

you lose flexibility with age

 

[bblazer]

+1

you lose flexibility with age

My wife's flexibility has gotten much better with age.

B-

 

[SaiBoT]

My wife's flexibility has gotten much better with age.

B-

My soon to be wife it's way more flexible than when we first met

 

[bblazer]

My soon to be wife it's way more flexible than when we first met

Its amazing what a good stretching program (that we provide) can do for them...

B-

 

[FunFun]

Every PHd doctor who specializes in the back and spine will disagree with you.

Picking up weight with a bent over back is the EASIEST way to injure yourself.

Having an injured lower back, I was specfically told NOT to ever lift anything of significant weight with a curved back.

Come on bro, really?

Yes bro, really!

You make no valid counter arguments (other than your educated doctor told you so) to what I stated about natural behaviour in native people who don't visit PhD back specialists yet bend to pick stuff up instinctually.

Even in deadlifts there is a limited amount of leg involvement. Watch the videos of guys picking up 900 lbs plus in competition. There is no full squat involved in those lifts, yet you believe I should full squat to pick up a light object off the floor.

Check out Andy Bolton's world record deadlift http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5groVHlMkRE. A quarter squat at the most - not much more than a slight dip of the knees. That's exactly how I bend over to pick anything off the floor - with a bend at the knees, but there no squatting going on.

 

[FunFun]

This has the be the biggest load of crap I have ever read on this site.

This is a joke right? Who is the alter here?

Since when has it become ok to flame here? There have been some posts by moderators about flaming just this week. I'd like to tell you where to stick it, but I'll be banned if I do.

You're flame reply is a joke because there are many points made in my post which cannot be refuted (my age, my own back health, the way native people I've observed pick up objects etc). Others points are obviously debatable (that's what we do here) but if you're too lazy to make any counter arguments then just cool it and keep the abuse to yourself.