Winstrol is one of the safe anabolics,right?Wrong!!Actually it is one of the most dan

[macrophage69alpha]

Mr. Lewellyn

I dont find your personal experiences objectionable.. merely that to project them generally unto others is inappropriate. The fact that the studies were done with women is important, However men with estrogenic fat patterns have, in their experience gained fat due to nolva in those areas. The number of men with estrogenic fat and or general estrogenic fat patterns increases every year due to exposure to environmental estrogens, and in the case of many on this board pro-hormone and aromatic steroid use.

as to you other comments, of course I have never used nolvadex.. that would be illegal.. however, my wayward "twin" who cant keep his hands of various chemicals and tends to randomly experiment on himself... did experience some localized fat gain (as have others) while using nolva and clomid mostly in the lower body(luckily none in the chest)( which was promptly "cured" through the use of topical yohimbine... at that time applied with aloe and aspercreme.. and a wee bit of DNP)... which is why he reccomends arimidex.. (used to be a big fan of clomid) ... was never a big fan of nolva.. though it does have its place.

Note- while HDL is important there are other ways to increase it without estrogen (anti-oxident use has also been shown to increase hepatic lipase.. there are some other things.. when I get a chance I will post them)... and HDL is of less importance to younger men... and with proper cycling periods of high HDL should be of less consequence.. though understandably it is a BIG concern for some.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Stew, I think he's got you bro....but WTF do I know

Is there nobody else on the entire forum but me here!

I really dont see a lot of similarity between the names STEW MEAT and MACROPHAGE69ALPHA... but maybe you are more insightful

 

[Sleepy]

Macro......this is a little off topic, but if i use nolvadex(in case of gyno)during a sust and winstrol cycle, are you saying that I may actually gain fat rather than lose it? i hope not.
thanks

 

[Realgains]

Okay I screwed up...but you know who I meant....now can you see that I am NOT Bill Unless thst was a very smart tactic.he He he NOT!!

 

[macrophage69alpha]

fatter.. .. but there are potential caveats

Appl Radiat Isot 1998 May-Jun;49(5-6):643-5 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


Body composition measurements using DXA and other techniques in tamoxifen-treated patients.

Ali PA, al-Ghorabie FH, Evans CJ, el-Sharkawi AM, Hancock DA.

Department of Medical Physics and Radiotherapy, Singleton Hospital, Swansea, U.K.

Tamoxifen is an anti-oestrogenic drug which is widely used in the treatment of patients with breast cancer. There is increasing interest in using the drug both for benign breast disease and as a chemo-preventative agent of the drug in women at high risk of breast cancer. Despite the fact that the acute side-effects of the drug are few, its agonistic and antagonistic oestrogenic effects are not fully known and may have some undesirable effects for patients treated with the drug for several years. A number of studies carried out recently indicate a varying degree of change in bone mineral content following treatment with tamoxifen. These studies concentrated mainly on bone mineral density measurements only and non of them reported the effects of tamoxifen on lean body mass and fat mass. In this study we measured lean body mass and fat mass in tamoxifen-treated females and a comparison group to determine the difference between the two groups. Twenty-six women receiving tamoxifen (20 mg/d) have participated in this study. The control group comprised 31 healthy women of a similar age. Total body bone mineral (TBBM) was measured using a dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry (DXA) (Hologic INV., Waltham, U.S.A.). Similarly, regional and total body soft tissue (lean and fat tissue) were measured using the DXA system. In addition to DXA measurements, percentage body fat (%BF) was measured using total body potassium counting (TBK), skinfold anthropometry (SF), infrared interactance (i.r.) and bioelectric impedance analysis (BIA). Results from DXA alone showed that there were no significant differences between the two groups for TBBM, regional and total body lean tissue mass. However, there was a significant difference between the two groups (P < 0.05) for %BF measurement. Similarly there was a significant difference between the two groups (P < 0.05) for %BF measured by other body composition techniques. Although there is no other research reported on the effects of tamoxifen on %BF, this retrospective study indicates that tamoxifen may lead to increase in fact content in women who are subjected to this treatment. We conclude that this observation is probably related to the agonistic oestrogenic effect of Tamoxifen on body fat. To our knowledge this deleterious effect has not been reported before and it should be taken into considerable when comprising different types of anti-oestrogenic drugs. Furthermore, patients should be warned about this side-effect when they are prescribed Tamoxifen therapy.


at least fatter than with arimidex..

Am J Physiol 1993 Jun;264(6 Pt 2):R1219-23 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


Tamoxifen mimics the effects of estradiol on food intake, body weight, and body composition in rats.

Wade GN, Heller HW.

Department of Psychology, University of Massachusetts, Amherst 01003.

Treatment of ovariectomized rats with the nonsteroidal antiestrogen tamoxifen mimicked the effects of estradiol and caused significant decreases in food intake and body weight. The decreases in body weight were reflected mainly in a decreased body fat content, although tamoxifen treatment did suppress linear growth too. Similar to the effects of estradiol, tamoxifen decreased parametrial white adipose tissue wet weight and lipoprotein lipase activity. When given concurrently with estradiol, tamoxifen showed no evidence of antiestrogenic activity on any of these measures. As reported previously, tamoxifen acted as a partial agonist/antagonist for uterine weight. The effective dose of tamoxifen for suppression of food intake, body weight, and body fat content fell between 10 and 50 micrograms/day. Therefore, tamoxifen behaves like other nonsteroidal antiestrogens and mimics but fails to antagonize the actions of estradiol on many aspects of physiological and behavioral regulation of energy balance.

IT MAY BE THAT YOUR EXPERIENCE IS MORE LIKELY THAN NOT TO BE REPLICATED WITH THOSE USING DECA AND NOLVA.. HOWEVER THE ADDITION OF EITHER TEST OR DBOL.. WILL PRECLUDE NOLVA AS THE CHOICE... one must also be aware of the NEGATIVE CNS effects that many experience with NOLVA.

However... the second study which may somewhat affirm the nolva deca stack.. was done on rats... it is unclear if this will project to humans..

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Macro......this is a little off topic, but if i use nolvadex(in case of gyno)during a sust and winstrol cycle, are you saying that I may actually gain fat rather than lose it? i hope not.
thanks

PROBABLY only in areas where you have high A2 density... see my post above... but I am not completely sure of the second studies applicability.. if you are cutting it may be merely that you will lose less fat from those areas

best solution-- use arimidex, femara or aromasin.

peace

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

... and HDL is of less importance to younger men... and with proper cycling periods of high HDL should be of less consequence.. though understandably it is a BIG concern for some.

Shit macro, you had to go there! Yes, you are making me feel old. I'm not 22 anymore, and when I think about how much on time I had spent in years past with low HDL levels, I cringe. Us OLD folk (I didn't hit 30 yet for the record though!) are concerned with this BIG time, whereas you young punks still think you'll live forever and prob don't even bother testing cholesterol... Oh, to be 22 again with no worries!

- Bill Llewellyn

 

[Realgains]

22!!!!!!!!!! I wish I was 30 again.

 

[Realgains]

Okay Macro...how old are you bro. You guys make me laugh...heck 30 is physical peak

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Yeah but shit.. At 22, you are NEVER going to get old, by 30 you start to notice those little things that remind you, you sure as hell are, and sooner than you think..

- Bill Llewellyn