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Yes realgains, gotta keep those wheels turning, otherwise boards like this would die a death of staleness and all we would need is a couple of stickies for newbies to read!
I've been thinking (and reading) about this over the last few days. At the front of my mind is that this is a WOMEN'S discussion board and I honestly don't care what your average male megajuicer thinks or does because it has no relevance to this board. But for the sake of completeness, I thought I would post a follow up of some interesting discussions and other research in this area on lower dose androgens in males (200-600mg range). I guess it's possible (though darned unlikely) that somehow the opposite is true as the dose of AAS increases above a certain threshold. This makes no biological sense but it has yet to be proven or unproven. Here are a couple of more insights from some folks that have done a lot of research in this area just for our consideration. I have highlighted the most relevant bits to make it easier to scan.
First a chunk of discussion section of the Sheffield-Moore et al 2000 article:
"We examined the response of muscle protein kinetics to an acute amino acid infusion before and after oxandrolone-induced anabolism. We demonstrated that both the model-derived value for muscle protein synthesis and the traditionally derived value of the FSR of muscle protein increased with infusion of amino acids both before and after oxandrolone-induced anabolism in young men. WE DID NOT, HOWEVER, SHOW A STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN THE FSR OF MUSCLE PROTEIN WHEN COMPARING AMINO ACIDS ALONE WITH THE COMBINATION OF OXANDROLONE AND AMINO ACIDS…………………………….. Muscle anabolism during amino acid infusion occurred by stimulation of protein synthesis, because protein breakdown was unchanged. Moreover, protein synthetic efficiency was UNCHANGED WITH AMINO ACID INFUSION FROM CONTROL TO OXANDROLONE, INDICATING THAT NO GREATER FRACTION OF THE AVAILABLE INTRACELLULAR AMINO ACIDS WAS INCORPORATED INTO MUSCLE PROTEINS.
We recently reported that 5 days of oxandrolone administration increased skeletal muscle anabolism, because protein breakdown was unchanged (15). Also, we reported a significant decrease in outward amino acid transport (FV,M), along with a calculated INCREASE IN PROTEIN SYNTHETIC EFFICIENCY, TOGETHER INDICATING INCREASED INTRACELLULAR REUTILIZATION OF AMINO ACIDS (15). These findings demonstrated the anabolic potential of oxandrolone in the skeletal muscle of normal fasted young men with only 5 days of administration. However, an individual is only postabsorptive for part of the day. The overall effectiveness of oxandrolone is thus dependent on the response during food intake as well. We, as well as others, have shown that increased availability of amino acids is a primary stimulus for muscle anabolism in the fed state. Data from our own studies in both young (8) and elderly (17) volunteers indicate that the stimulation of inward amino acid transport to the leg is the mechanism whereby the intravenous infusion of amino acids stimulates net muscle protein synthesis (8, 17). In agreement with our previous findings (8, 17), results from the present study indicate that protein synthesis efficiency did not change during amino acid infusion in the fasted state. In combination, these results identify amino acid availability as the rate-limiting factor in muscle protein synthesis in the fasted state. In contrast to the action of amino acids, anabolic hormones such as insulin (6), testosterone (11), and oxandrolone (15) INCREASE THE EFFICIENCY OF PROTEIN SYNTHESIS WHILE NOT AFFECTING AMINO ACID AVAILABILITY.
Several investigations have examined the in vivo response of skeletal muscle to insulin by utilizing the arteriovenous balance method (1, 6, 10, 12, 22). From these results, we can deduce that, whereas insulin has the potential to stimulate muscle protein synthesis, this can only be reflected in an increased rate of synthesis if an adequate availability of amino acids is maintained. Thus systematically administered insulin can only stimulate muscle protein synthesis if amino acids are administered simultaneously. IN CONTRAST, THE STIMULATION OF MUSCLE PROTEIN SYNTHESIS BY OXANDROLONE DOES NOT REQUIRE EXOGENOUS AMINO ACIDS (15)………. "
TESTOSTERONE INJECTION STIMULATES NET PROTEIN SYNTHESIS BUT NOT TISSUE AMINO ACID TRANSPORT.
Ferrando AA, Tipton KD, Doyle D, Phillips SM, Cortiella J, Wolfe RR.
.
Testosterone administration (T) increases lean body mass and muscle protein synthesis. We investigated the effects of short-term T on leg muscle protein kinetics and transport of selected amino acids by use of a model based on arteriovenous sampling and muscle biopsy. Fractional synthesis (FSR) and breakdown (FBR) rates of skeletal muscle protein were also directly calculated. Seven healthy men were studied before and 5 days after intramuscular injection of 200 mg of testosterone enanthate. Protein synthesis increased
twofold after injection , whereas protein breakdown was unchanged. FSR and FBR calculations were in accordance, because FSR increased twofold without a concomitant change in FBR. Net balance between synthesis and breakdown became more positive with both methodologies and was not different from zero. T injection increased arteriovenous essential and nonessential nitrogen balance across the LEG IN THE FASTED STATE, WITHOUT INCREASING AMINO ACID TRANSPORT. Thus T ADMINISTRATION LEADS TO AN INCREASED NET PROTEIN SYNTHESIS AND REUTILIZATION OF INTRACELLULAR AMINO ACIDS IN SKELETAL MUSCLE.
In both cases (and in total agreement with all of the other research done in livestock and burned or sick humans) these researchers conclude in no uncertain terms that the administration of androgens leads to an increase in efficiency of amino acid uptake via recycling and reduced protein breakdown, and that additional amino acids (above what a 'natty' needs for good anabolism) are not required for this increased anabolism. Realgains, your statement that you have not (and apparently would not) try any other approach to mass gains while on AAS was exactly what I was referring to when I said I have never tried it on a juicing male. The idea that you need grossly large amounts of protein 24/7/365 is so deeply ingrained in your psyche that you would not believe me even if I presented a study that involved 6000 young males on 2 grams of gear a week for 16 weeks that showed otherwise. You would find holes in the research to support your beliefs IMHO. Bottom line, just to reiterate, is that large amounts of protein will work. It is one way to achieve your goals. I merely assert that they are not necessary and that there are some viable alternatives that might even get you BETTER mass gains (on or off cycle). It works in females which is all that really matters to this board.
I've been thinking (and reading) about this over the last few days. At the front of my mind is that this is a WOMEN'S discussion board and I honestly don't care what your average male megajuicer thinks or does because it has no relevance to this board. But for the sake of completeness, I thought I would post a follow up of some interesting discussions and other research in this area on lower dose androgens in males (200-600mg range). I guess it's possible (though darned unlikely) that somehow the opposite is true as the dose of AAS increases above a certain threshold. This makes no biological sense but it has yet to be proven or unproven. Here are a couple of more insights from some folks that have done a lot of research in this area just for our consideration. I have highlighted the most relevant bits to make it easier to scan.
First a chunk of discussion section of the Sheffield-Moore et al 2000 article:
"We examined the response of muscle protein kinetics to an acute amino acid infusion before and after oxandrolone-induced anabolism. We demonstrated that both the model-derived value for muscle protein synthesis and the traditionally derived value of the FSR of muscle protein increased with infusion of amino acids both before and after oxandrolone-induced anabolism in young men. WE DID NOT, HOWEVER, SHOW A STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN THE FSR OF MUSCLE PROTEIN WHEN COMPARING AMINO ACIDS ALONE WITH THE COMBINATION OF OXANDROLONE AND AMINO ACIDS…………………………….. Muscle anabolism during amino acid infusion occurred by stimulation of protein synthesis, because protein breakdown was unchanged. Moreover, protein synthetic efficiency was UNCHANGED WITH AMINO ACID INFUSION FROM CONTROL TO OXANDROLONE, INDICATING THAT NO GREATER FRACTION OF THE AVAILABLE INTRACELLULAR AMINO ACIDS WAS INCORPORATED INTO MUSCLE PROTEINS.
We recently reported that 5 days of oxandrolone administration increased skeletal muscle anabolism, because protein breakdown was unchanged (15). Also, we reported a significant decrease in outward amino acid transport (FV,M), along with a calculated INCREASE IN PROTEIN SYNTHETIC EFFICIENCY, TOGETHER INDICATING INCREASED INTRACELLULAR REUTILIZATION OF AMINO ACIDS (15). These findings demonstrated the anabolic potential of oxandrolone in the skeletal muscle of normal fasted young men with only 5 days of administration. However, an individual is only postabsorptive for part of the day. The overall effectiveness of oxandrolone is thus dependent on the response during food intake as well. We, as well as others, have shown that increased availability of amino acids is a primary stimulus for muscle anabolism in the fed state. Data from our own studies in both young (8) and elderly (17) volunteers indicate that the stimulation of inward amino acid transport to the leg is the mechanism whereby the intravenous infusion of amino acids stimulates net muscle protein synthesis (8, 17). In agreement with our previous findings (8, 17), results from the present study indicate that protein synthesis efficiency did not change during amino acid infusion in the fasted state. In combination, these results identify amino acid availability as the rate-limiting factor in muscle protein synthesis in the fasted state. In contrast to the action of amino acids, anabolic hormones such as insulin (6), testosterone (11), and oxandrolone (15) INCREASE THE EFFICIENCY OF PROTEIN SYNTHESIS WHILE NOT AFFECTING AMINO ACID AVAILABILITY.
Several investigations have examined the in vivo response of skeletal muscle to insulin by utilizing the arteriovenous balance method (1, 6, 10, 12, 22). From these results, we can deduce that, whereas insulin has the potential to stimulate muscle protein synthesis, this can only be reflected in an increased rate of synthesis if an adequate availability of amino acids is maintained. Thus systematically administered insulin can only stimulate muscle protein synthesis if amino acids are administered simultaneously. IN CONTRAST, THE STIMULATION OF MUSCLE PROTEIN SYNTHESIS BY OXANDROLONE DOES NOT REQUIRE EXOGENOUS AMINO ACIDS (15)………. "
TESTOSTERONE INJECTION STIMULATES NET PROTEIN SYNTHESIS BUT NOT TISSUE AMINO ACID TRANSPORT.
Ferrando AA, Tipton KD, Doyle D, Phillips SM, Cortiella J, Wolfe RR.
.
Testosterone administration (T) increases lean body mass and muscle protein synthesis. We investigated the effects of short-term T on leg muscle protein kinetics and transport of selected amino acids by use of a model based on arteriovenous sampling and muscle biopsy. Fractional synthesis (FSR) and breakdown (FBR) rates of skeletal muscle protein were also directly calculated. Seven healthy men were studied before and 5 days after intramuscular injection of 200 mg of testosterone enanthate. Protein synthesis increased
twofold after injection , whereas protein breakdown was unchanged. FSR and FBR calculations were in accordance, because FSR increased twofold without a concomitant change in FBR. Net balance between synthesis and breakdown became more positive with both methodologies and was not different from zero. T injection increased arteriovenous essential and nonessential nitrogen balance across the LEG IN THE FASTED STATE, WITHOUT INCREASING AMINO ACID TRANSPORT. Thus T ADMINISTRATION LEADS TO AN INCREASED NET PROTEIN SYNTHESIS AND REUTILIZATION OF INTRACELLULAR AMINO ACIDS IN SKELETAL MUSCLE.
In both cases (and in total agreement with all of the other research done in livestock and burned or sick humans) these researchers conclude in no uncertain terms that the administration of androgens leads to an increase in efficiency of amino acid uptake via recycling and reduced protein breakdown, and that additional amino acids (above what a 'natty' needs for good anabolism) are not required for this increased anabolism. Realgains, your statement that you have not (and apparently would not) try any other approach to mass gains while on AAS was exactly what I was referring to when I said I have never tried it on a juicing male. The idea that you need grossly large amounts of protein 24/7/365 is so deeply ingrained in your psyche that you would not believe me even if I presented a study that involved 6000 young males on 2 grams of gear a week for 16 weeks that showed otherwise. You would find holes in the research to support your beliefs IMHO. Bottom line, just to reiterate, is that large amounts of protein will work. It is one way to achieve your goals. I merely assert that they are not necessary and that there are some viable alternatives that might even get you BETTER mass gains (on or off cycle). It works in females which is all that really matters to this board.
