All knowledgeable bros - in here please.

[rich_89]

Good evening all,

Please re assure me i am not a fucking idiot on this one, because i seem to be getting outnumbered on a discussion about prolactin based side effects from 19nor-testosterones (tren/Deca).

Here is the post from a forum that i was debating in. Are we all incorrect here at Elite fitness, or is there some flaw in this logic?

Number one- Deca DOES AROMATISE to a very potent oestrogen:

"...19-nortestosterone derivatives (norethisterone, norethynodrel, tibolone) can readily be aromatized in the adult human liver. This leads to the formation of the potent estrogens ethinylestradiol from norethisterone"

from: Can 19-nortestosterone derivatives be aromatized... [Climacteric. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI

as I noted above... but lets explore the actions of oestrogen, progesterone and prolactin further:

There is some pretty basic misunderstanding out there, with people repeating "bro science" and saying they have "prolactin" gyno from deca or tren, which is physically impossible:

Prolactin "...stimulates the mammary glands to produce milk (lactation): Increased serum concentrations of prolactin during pregnancy cause enlargement of the mammary glands of the breasts and prepare for the production of milk. However, the high levels of progesterone during pregnancy suppress the production of milk. Milk production normally starts when the levels of progesterone fall by the end of pregnancy and a suckling stimulus is present

thats from: Prolactin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You should note that, HIGH progesterone INHIBITS prolactin!!

Then, 19-nortestosterones , are classed as progestins:

"Clinical studies have shown" Deca Durabolin..." (a 19-nortestosterone derivative) "... to be effective in treating anaemia, osteoporosis and some forms of neoplasia including breast cancer, and also acts as a progestin-based contraceptive... Estrogenic effects resulting from reaction with aromatase are also mitigated as a result of the drug being a progestin."

from: Nandrolone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


And if you read this, 19-nortest has MINOR activity in aromatisation in men:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...39128X66910129

Now what DOES cause breast development?

"While estrogens are present in both men and women, they are usually present at significantly higher levels in women of reproductive age. They promote the development of female secondary sexual characteristics, such as breasts, and are also involved in the thickening of the endometrium and other aspects of regulating the menstrual cycle. In males, estrogen regulates certain functions of the reproductive system important to the maturation of sperm[10][11][12] and may be necessary for a healthy libido.[13][14]"
from: Estrogen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now progesterone:
"...Progesterone has a number of physiological effects that are amplified in the presence of estrogen. Estrogen through estrogen receptors upregulates the expression of progesterone receptors.[26] ."

also:

"Progesterone is sometimes called the "hormone of pregnancy",[35] and it has many roles relating to the development of the fetus...In addition progesterone inhibits lactation during pregnancy. The fall in progesterone levels following delivery is one of the triggers for milk production." (folks please not, as noted above in prolactin- high progesterone INHIBITS prolactin, low progesterone lets prolactin rise).

both the above from: Progesterone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So to summarise that:
1. 19-nortest derivatives (deca & tren) are progestins
2. High levels of progesterone INHIBIT prolactin
3. Progesterone only exerts the majority of its effects in a high oestrogen environment.

So, where the F**K do people get of saying take CABER to suppress prolactin when taking 19-nor steroids??? Taking a 19-nor steriod AUTOMATICALLY INHIBITS PROLACTIN!!!

Now this is contrary to all my research and what i believed to be true.

Regards to you all,

Rich

 

[stevesmi]

even if this is true imagine the rebound effect if you do not have your prolactin under control going into pct.

i have found that with deca.. running an AI, caber, and hcgenerate during cycle makes for a much faster recovery
i have found with tren the same thing except you don't need an AI of course.

so take that for what its worth.. i can only go by my own personal experience. and with the horror stories out there about recovery from tren I have had absolutely zero issues with recovery using this strategy. i have bloods from my tren cycle from last year up along with the entire log.

 

[dylangemelli]

i wonder if all the people that use wikipedia for research realize that ANYONE can put whatever the fuck they want on there... theres a reason that professors in college will not allow you to use wikipedia as a source for research papers... it is not credible...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy

 

[bluetoolpaul]

Here's my 'bro-ology'....when i take deca or tren....my nips itch and grow! when i don't use them, gyno is a lot more controllable. It is worse on deca, but tren still brings the puff.

Any idiot can post whatever they want and say science backs it up. Look in any muscle and fitness magazine and note the supplement advertisements....

 

[rich_89]

I hear you guys, and i agree about the wikipedia references being far from credible. However, the logic seems to be sound, and i cant help but want to delve into this. Because, if it's not the 19nor's that cause the prolactin build up, then what does? Bros dont have prolactin issues when not using 19nors do they?? (If you do and read this then speak up) so it must be some link to the 19nors that triggers the prolactin buildup.

 

[Judo Tom]

i would need to see more proof on "You should note that, HIGH progesterone INHIBITS prolactin!!"

then if that is true.. in adult males.. on steroids.. i would look into other reasons why things like caber/prami prevent boobs.. cause i KNOW that deca/tren can cause boobs in certain adults males on steroids when they do not use caber/prami

 

[doublebicep]

i wonder if all the people that use wikipedia for research realize that ANYONE can put whatever the fuck they want on there... theres a reason that professors in college will not allow you to use wikipedia as a source for research papers... it is not credible...

Interesting, I did not know that profs will not allow wiki as a source for research papers. Makes sense...

 

[KillaBig]

Man,I have heard this one debated back and fourth and would really like some good info since I have a little tren I wanna use in my next cycle.I figured I would just have some caber on hand regardless and I don't know if this true but will Winstrol lower progesterone I heard it could also be used if nothing else was on hand.

 

[Judo Tom]

always have caber/prami on hand.. just in case...

winny may be enough... deca/winny works well for many people.. but still have it on hand