Rows & Deadlifts vs. Power Cleans & High Pulls (Olylifters? Glenn or CCJ, perchance?)

I know Bill Starr's single-factor 5x5 program calls for an exchange of rows & deadlifts for cleans and high pulls. This is for those unfamiliar with the latter lifts.

I was wondering, though: would cleans and high pulls develop the lats/back like rows and deadlifts would? I know explosive pulling seems to be adored by the back, and many olylifters have great back development, but I'm not sure whether cleans & high pulls would give the back the width it'd need for aesthetic fulfillment.

Input from anyone who has experience with these lifts?

No, the time under tension is too short with Oly lifts. The muscle isn't stressed long enough. That is how Oly lifters are able to train 2-4 times a day.

I'd just do 'em all. Use explosive lifts for a training cycle, then use rows/deads for a cycle. Best of both worlds.

Re: Rows & Deadlifts vs. Power Cleans & High Pulls (Olylifters? Glenn or CCJ, perchan

Well considering what passes for bent rows in most gyms is a hell of a lot closer to a butchered light clean pull cut short and armed into the body - I'm pretty sure you'll get quite a bit of lat development . I think Glenn mentioned the other day a lot of lifters have developed some mean lats with just the OL pulls and variants. Granted you might not get maximal lat activation like a 90 degree row but they play a big part in the pull (sort of like the pecs in the flat bench). As far as the aesthetic "width". I'd worry about that later. If you have some big lats and powerful back it will be a snap to add in "width" exercises and get great results over a short period. Meaning you needn't obcess about always including something special for "width" as this is fairly easy to deal with. If you are including some type of rowing and pullups or somesuch somewhere in your macro plan and don't ignore them totally for long continuous periods - it likely won't ever be an issue. I guess the main idea is that you needn't worry about having everything and the kitchen sink in every training cycle. Just train smart and improve on your lifts. Deal with any issues as they arrise and don't try to obcessively cover everything in advance.

do both when in doubt

depends on the person I guess, I never noticed too much difference when I did or didn't do any olys. Deads and olys are all sorta Isometric type back tension anyway

do rows and chins an you can't go wrong, those blow up my back like bat...
But back width is largely genetic, your back never gets wider, the muscles just get bigger.

I agree with the other in saying do all of them but for me doing cleans from the hang seem to develop my lats better than any exercise.

kilo- i agree, cleans from hang position develop my shoulders and traps better then anything, for me at least

Re: Rows & Deadlifts vs. Power Cleans & High Pulls (Olylifters? Glenn or CCJ, perchan

different lifts DO affect people in different ways... for instance, you see some world class OLers with huge, fantastic traps, and some with very little trap development... some just dont use the traps that much, its all legs extension then under the bar for them.

personally, id say that if you are not trying to be good at any certain thing, just want to get bigger, then deadlifts, rows, and chinups, things like that, should be your starting point. at some point you are going to try powercleans, romanian deadlifts, dumbell rows, etc. if they seem to work great.

I think the best starting point for back is doing rows twice a week, and deadlifts once, OR, doing rows, chinups, and deadlifts each one time per week on 3 different days. at some point experiment with switching from deadlifts to powercleans or high pulls, or something like that.

one last thing about the olympic lifts, if you absolutely suck at them, and dont have anyone to teach you... they might not be as effective. the guy deadlifting 500 or 600lbs and trying to do a "reverse curl" clean with 200lbs will probably not get much from the clean. if you know how to clean, use enough weight to stress the back, get a good shrug at the top, etc, then the clean is a good exercise. i think cleans definately made my back way bigger than it was before i started OLing, but then i knew how to clean, and was able to clean 463lbs... it was VERY stressfull to the back, erectors, lats, traps, EVERYTHING. i did clean high pulls 500+ pounds frequently, and 600lbs once or twice, and my lats contracted so hard it felt like they were going to cramp from the effort of keeping the bar close to the body. but like i said, had i had crappy form, and been using 150lbs or 200lbs less at the same strength level, i probably wouldnt have gotten anything out of them.

kiloamp said:

I agree with the other in saying do all of them but for me, doing cleans from the hang seem to develop my lats better than any exercise.

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Re: Rows & Deadlifts vs. Power Cleans & High Pulls (Olylifters? Glenn or CCJ, perchan

glennpendlay said:

... (I) was able to clean 463lbs... QUOTE]

Wow, awesome clean Glenn! Did you do that in a contest?

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I remember on my second run of the 5x5 I put in power cleans for the rows. I had some good posterior delt growth and my back continued to grow. Being self-taught, though, what I call power cleans may vary a lot from anyone else's idea of them.