Need brand new training regimen

looking to go from........ muscular to huge. im about 6 foot 170 and i am muscular but its time to add some serious size. will be reworking my regimen for college. which way should i go? i've tried 5x5 and liked it but would like to try soething else...... what do u think?

Boardin, did you do needsize's 5x5 or the other 5x5?

Anyway, we began on this board at about the same time, there's no reason at 6'1 and the way you eat, to my knowledge, that you should still be 170. How have your strength levels faired? You haven't posted here in a while so I have no idea - or maybe you did but I missed it...

BTW, maybe you should consider a lighter cycle as school starts? That's my plan, as the workload will take a while to get used to.

i lost 15 lbs when i got sick and got my wisdom teeth out. I have leaned out a TON since i began here. i have definately changed my physique immensely. but working 60 hours a week sincei got sick has actually made me lose another 3 lbs the imporatnt thing is im going to college and need to get into good habits there. a light cycle i think would be looked down on by alot of peeps here becuz of our age but i would consider it....

Boardin087 said:

i lost 15 lbs when i got sick and got my wisdom teeth out. I have leaned out a TON since i began here. i have definately changed my physique immensely. but working 60 hours a week sincei got sick has actually made me lose another 3 lbs the imporatnt thing is im going to college and need to get into good habits there. a light cycle i think would be looked down on by alot of peeps here becuz of our age but i would consider it....

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boardin... by "cycle" I do not mean drugs. That's the problem with people in our age group. I'm talking about your training. Look up the single factor 5x5 threads, they should help.

super_rice said:

That's the problem with people in our age group. .

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super rice you make my dad seem fun

j/k bro.

Boardin like he said- check out the bill starr 5x5 variant (VERY different from the needsize one). You are unlikely to find anything more appropriate for your situation/goal.

Eheh, I'm becomming more and more like my dad as the days go by. I'm not sure whether or not that's a good thing.

i'm not worreid about strengh and that seems to be what that 5x5 is about.........

Boardin087 said:

i'm not worreid about strengh and that seems to be what that 5x5 is about.........

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WHat gave you that idea? Besides, size and strength go together.

Boardin087

Consider using the 5x5. It will provide mass to an extent. Perhaps the 1-6 might be to your liking (look up Poliquin over on t-mag.com)? Ian King also some interesting programs that address balance, size, and strength.

There are really too many to name or try. What exactly are you looking to commit to?

Guinness5.0 said:

WHat gave you that idea? Besides, size and strength go together.

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Be careful using blanket statements like this. After all - are "bodybuilders" stronger than Olympic lifters or powerlifters half their size?

mekannik said:

Be careful using blanket statements like this. After all - are "bodybuilders" stronger than Olympic lifters or powerlifters half their size?

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Perhaps a better way to put it would be:
Increasing strength in the core compound lifts in a hypertrophy-oriented rep range will result in increased hypertrophy in the trainee, assuming diet (more specifically caloric excess) and rest are adequate.

Beyond that, increased strength in a lower rep range carries over into the higher rep ranges as well. Since a pl has minimal use for pure hypertrophy, their efforts revolve around lower reps for the most part.

I'm not trying to start an argument (from what I can tell we agree so far ), but it's tough to compare elite bb'ers with elite pl's if for no other reason than the vast role drugs play in both endeavors. As madcow has said repeatedly, bb'ers are big in spite of their training rather than because of it. If someone were to run 6 IU's a day of HgH, 2 grams of test/week, a gram of deca and some tren, they could probably grow 20 inch arms with intense masterbation

Muscles hypertrophy in an effort to adapt to increased capacity. You can only add reps for a bit as the ranges here are fairly narrow. Strength must increase and it should be strength in the most stimulative lifts that drive adaptation in the organism.

If you lift weights, you are doing strength training. Maybe it's not for a single but it is to increase your capacity. BBing is not some different voodoo - they are simply increasing capacity in a slightly different range with less neural focus and feeding their body enough to put on muscle in response to the stimulus. Think of BBing as running the 45 rather than the 40. Instead of trying to hypothesize all kinds of garbage about the uniqueness of running the 45 and how a 45 sprinter is so different, they would benefit vastly from taking a look at the massive amount of knowledge accumulated regarding running the 40 and start applying it to get fast at the 45.

The bottom line is that what makes one fast in the 40 will carry you to very high levels in running the 45. Once you are at a fairly high level, understand your body, and have a solid foundation in training. Maybe then try to adapt your technique to give you that 2% edge in the 45.

I liked this quote - it is heavily sarcastic:

What a lot of strength athletes don't understand is that bodybuilding is totally different. A whole different type of hypertophy that requires vastly different exotic training methods that rarely get results and generally require anabolics to break 200lbs. Let me tell you all that building significant muscle mass on a Yoda-esque program using exotic rep schemes on cables and machines, days of dedicated biceps training, with an overbearing focus on trace mineral balance and insufficient caloric intake makes it really hard to put on muscle. These guys have to have it all together to show any appreciable gains.

Guys that eat and are able to rely on basic programs to increase their weights in squats, pulls, and presses doing basic exercises that strengthen the body and force it to adapt with increased muscle have it easy. They will never know what it's like to fight through moronic inefficiency to needlessly differentiate your training and alleviate worry that when you eventually do start gaining weight someday, it will be in perfect symmetry and proportion - all at 2lbs a year.

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super_rice said:

boardin... by "cycle" I do not mean drugs. That's the problem with people in our age group. I'm talking about your training. Look up the single factor 5x5 threads, they should help.

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lol!!!! i cought that in his post, and i was like, woah bro i dont think he meant that.

anyway, i like madcowx 5x5 and everybody else does too

Yeah, you juice-monster.


It's no wonder that many people in the gym equate any muscles out of the ordinary with drugs when we can't even discuss simple training without confusion.

Guinness5.0 said:

If someone were to run 6 IU's a day of HgH, 2 grams of test/week, a gram of deca and some tren, they could probably grow 20 inch arms with intense masterbation

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posted by someone who obviously knows nothing about drugs, and has never run any themselves...or maybe you are onto something, I can achieve my dreams of a pro card just by taking a ton of drugs, and nothing else, its just that easy

Guinness5.0 said:

I'm not trying to start an argument (from what I can tell we agree so far ), but it's tough to compare elite bb'ers with elite pl's if for no other reason than the vast role drugs play in both endeavors. As madcow has said repeatedly, bb'ers are big in spite of their training rather than because of it. If someone were to run 6 IU's a day of HgH, 2 grams of test/week, a gram of deca and some tren, they could probably grow 20 inch arms with intense masterbation

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I agree - not trying to argue. My concern is that while the 5x5 program is valid for strength and size - it is by no means the end all of strength programs. Plateaus will be met in all programs, along with some mental stagnation, not to mention that eventually - goals may change or another stimulus will be needed to elicit a response. A year or two ago it was HIT'ers all over this board espousing Mike Mentzer and blasting ANY other concept offered up. Now the board is in the 5x5 phase - which is a very valid system - but, again, is not the end all.

I mention Poliquin because I like the programs and results he has offered up in the past. Ian King is a favorite because of his programs addressing balance (front to back, top to bottom, left to right) and stabilizers. This is where my main question about 5x5 comes in - and no, I have not read each and every variation out there: How are issues of balance addressed? At some point unilateral excercises need to be brought in to ensure the body is not compensating for a weak limb or joint.

mekannik said:

This is where my main question about 5x5 comes in - and no, I have not read each and every variation out there: How are issues of balance addressed? At some point unilateral excercises need to be brought in to ensure the body is not compensating for a weak limb or joint.

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I think you have the wrong idea about programming and the Starr 5x5. The issue is that people are looking for "THE PROGRAM" when in fact all programs, even the best, are merely "A PROGRAM". You can't do the same thing forever. For a program to be the best choice at the time it has to address the individual's experience, tolerance, previous training, weak points, goal for the period, and still fit into the longer term goal. What is the best program for someone today might be a poor 8 weeks from now after they've acclimated to it or achieved whatever it was they were looking for.

If you look at the Starr 5x5 thread, the bulk of the TOC and everything added recently and waiting to be indexed doesn't concern that program but revolves around basic training and programing. The Starr 5x5 program is basically a foundation style program. Is it good at making you big and strong? Sure. Will it work forever if you just constantly run it as laid out again and again? Definitely not and diminishing returns will set it.

So where's the utility value? In addition to packing muscle on at a good rate by drastically increasing capacity in the core lifts, it serves to teach and illustrate. It allows people to easily grasp the nature of dual factor theory, breaks the BBing taboo of needing 7 days between bodyparts, and introduces the concepts of managing volume, intensity (%1RM), and frequency (all these coming together in wordload over a period). This doesn't mean that it only works once, or that it might not be the absolute best choice in a year for someone, or that they might not benefit from an extended period on such a program specifically if they've spent 90% of their time on a shotgun array of untargeted assistance work and not really focused on the core lifts for a long period.

Essentially what this does is get people thinking about planning a longer training cycle, or a macro style cycle that is tailored to their needs and managing it properly. It's just not enough to pick some exercises, lay them out by bodypart, and go in and work hard. Yeah, beginners and novices will do okay if the exercises are good but this is about taking intermediate and advanced lifters and making sure all 5 steps are forward - not 3 to the side, 1 back, and 1 forward.

Anyway, in this macro plan, ideally people will be constantly evaluating their needs and goals. A foudation style workout like the 5x5 might be run for 2 months; afterwhich a period of 4 weeks is devoted to targeted assistance work and a set of alternative exercises while maintaining the base; after that maybe a period of higher rep range work; and then followed by a series of concentrated and scaling cycles for a period; maybe some rest or speed work or whatever; then maybe the 5x5 or a derrivative again. Of course, all this time they are tailoring the macro layout to their needs as well as balancing the different meso/micro cycles to their own parameters.

This is training. Training is not some single program run linearly forever or changing up splits when they get stale. Training is a constant formula of optimization for an individual whether that be for a competition 8 months out or simply putting on as much muscle over the year as possible. Hell diet would be considered in all of these phases and if someone was drugged that would be accounted for too.

Anyway, most people come here looking to get big. Most come here spending far too much time on the little bullshit anyway that while alleviating their concern over growing out of symmetry certainly hasn't provided for much progress to where such measures would be needed. Most have never put serious time in the core lifts. The Starr 5x5 becomes a viable alternative - maybe the ideal one because we are pulling from a population that doesn't train anything like this so it tends to really work. It won't work forever and for optimum progress, they will have to learn to plan training. Maybe they do this. It seems quite a number have been down this path, are doing it now, and are making very steady consistent progress as they address their needs. Maybe it's HST, DFHT, WSB, BS5x5, even a HIT based program (just a period nothing crazy) or better yet, pulling from these and learning how to manage it on their own.

That is training and that is the goal. The BS 5x5 is just an introductory program to get them moving.

Lift for strength at the beginning of your workout (1 compound exercise w/ incremental progression, 3-5 sets and 5-8 reps), then progress to endurance (2-3 compound+isolation exercises for 2-5 sets and 8-12 reps). Aim to achieve conditioning in both areas.

Madcow2 said:

... You can't do the same thing forever. For a program to be the best choice at the time it has to address the individual's experience, tolerance, previous training, weak points, goal for the period, and still fit into the longer term goal. What is the best program for someone today might be a poor 8 weeks from now after they've acclimated to it or achieved whatever it was they were looking for.

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That is the first time I have read this response (and no - I did not or will not go back and search past threads for this explanation). I concur completely that you can not run "a program" indefinately. Part of the body growing is adapting to different stimuli.

The point from my last post was to make sure the idea of balance is kept in mind to avoid long term injury and to promote a better quality physique. That and strength is not dependent on muscle size alone.


Oh, and Ian King and Poliquin also note that their programs are meant for one or two "cycles" per year at the most. So the idea of continuous back to back runnings of the same program is addressed.

I think we are on the same page. A few times lately people have got it into their heads that I am out there saying the Starr 5x5 is "the program" or the only way to train - when in fact that's never been my contention and that's kind of the antithesis of what I've been trying to do. It was more of a general rant than directed at you.

Being one of the first on here to run the madcow/Starr 5x5 I think it's worth my chipping in that I never gained any impression that I was taking out a lifetime subscription to the program. I always took it as madcow just described: an alternative way of looking at training to the standard once-a-week-to-repeated-failure method that I was using and starting to feel disillusionment with. I've not seen the program presented as anything else.

needsize said:

posted by someone who obviously knows nothing about drugs, and has never run any themselves...or maybe you are onto something, I can achieve my dreams of a pro card just by taking a ton of drugs, and nothing else, its just that easy

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Probably not my best post ever, but my point was that lots of people jump on sauce and then because they get big, they think they know how to train. I was one of those people. I "peaked" (ran out of newbie gains from a less-than-adequate program) and thought to progress i'd need drugs. First cycle was prop and eq, second was prop and tren. First was ten weeks, second was 7. The first one got me to 240 net (from 225- and by net I mean after pct and water loss) and the second took me from 235 to 265. After the second one, my weight steadily dropped until I got to 245. It was then that I decided I didn't want to have to rely on gear to make progress. I've been reading lots of what madcow writes and the stuff he links to and realized there's a lot more to training than what magazines and most gym rats seem to know. That where I'm at now.

In some cases (yours in particular) drugs are justified/necessary IMO. It doesn't matter how good your training/diet is- to be a pro you gotta run gear. Again this is my opinion and it ain't worth shit to anyone but me. I just wanted to make it clear that I'm not as much of a know-it-all as it appears from what I posted above.

Guinness5.0 said:

You are unlikely to find anything more appropriate for your situation/goal.

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This was my advice before I bit off more than I could chew
and I stand by it.

Guinness5.0 said:

Probably not my best post ever, but my point was that lots of people jump on sauce and then because they get big, they think they know how to train. I was one of those people. I "peaked" (ran out of newbie gains from a less-than-adequate program) and thought to progress i'd need drugs. First cycle was prop and eq, second was prop and tren. First was ten weeks, second was 7. The first one got me to 240 net (from 225- and by net I mean after pct and water loss) and the second took me from 235 to 265. After the second one, my weight steadily dropped until I got to 245. It was then that I decided I didn't want to have to rely on gear to make progress. I've been reading lots of what madcow writes and the stuff he links to and realized there's a lot more to training than what magazines and most gym rats seem to know. That where I'm at now.

In some cases (yours in particular) drugs are justified/necessary IMO. It doesn't matter how good your training/diet is- to be a pro you gotta run gear. Again this is my opinion and it ain't worth shit to anyone but me. I just wanted to make it clear that I'm not as much of a know-it-all as it appears from what I posted above.

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okay, that makes a little more sense, and is a little less offensive. Many do jump on the juice way too early, long before they have any business doing so. Personally, I trained for over 10 years first, tried every diet and training approach I could find, and even made some up that happened to be decently effective. but in the end, I couldnt get anywhere near where I wanted to without turning to juice, but it sure isnt the wonder that many think it is, especially to get to where I am trying to.
Dont know if anyone from this forum saw these, but here are some pics I posted of me before hitting the juice
pre-juice pics

Cool. I think that because I've been learning a lot lately, I've been thinking I'm smarter than I really am . Plus I am a sarcastic bastard, which often translates poorly in writing.

Anywho, definitely some nice progress. I wish you luck with your professional endeavor. I have a friend who is training w/ an aspiring pro and I am vaguely aware of the type of desire/discipline/dedication you must posess. As they relate to high level BBers/PLs I see drugs as part of the equation, not a cop out as they are in MOST users' overall programs. I certainly haven't pursued anything with such focus (yet ).

Besides, how could I not like a guy w/ simpsons' quotes in his sig? One of my favs:
Homer- "Quick! What's the number for 911?!"

Guinness5.0 said:

Cool. I think that because I've been learning a lot lately, I've been thinking I'm smarter than I really am . Plus I am a sarcastic bastard, which often translates poorly in writing.

Anywho, definitely some nice progress. I wish you luck with your professional endeavor. I have a friend who is training w/ an aspiring pro and I am vaguely aware of the type of desire/discipline/dedication you must posess. As they relate to high level BBers/PLs I see drugs as part of the equation, not a cop out as they are in MOST users' overall programs. I certainly haven't pursued anything with such focus (yet ).

Besides, how could I not like a guy w/ simpsons' quotes in his sig? One of my favs:
Homer- "Quick! What's the number for 911?!"

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its funny, getting huge takes crazy dedication, but its nothing compared to this contest stuff. My trainer who is an IFBB pro(first time I've ever had a trainer) has me eating 2600 calories a day, do 45 minutes of cardio 2x daily, as well as training 2x a day, all for 20 goddamn weeks...makes me wish I was a bowler instead of a bodybuilder
And all this, so I can take at least another year to add enough size to tackle the provincials and nationals.....