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Today's 5 x 5 workout and some fun facts

Jim Ouini

Jim Ouini

New member
So today I did Wk 6 Day 1 of 5 x 5. (3 x 3) It went pretty well.

Squat:

330 x 3 x 3. I'd like to say ATF but there might've been room to slide a sheet or two of paper ;) I mean when I just hold onto the squat rack (like an ole' sissy squat) and go hams in full contact with the calves, that's ATF to me. I'm not that low.

Anyway I'm satisfied with the current depth below parallel and will continue to work on it in my next DFHT/5 x 5 cycle.

Bench and BB row:

240 x 1 x 3

All in all pretty good workout. The only concern I have is that I may be approaching my 1/3 x 3 max too soon. I guess my 3 rep max isn't much higher than my 5 rep max from the volume phase; let's just say I'm getting to know the 2.5lb plates very well :p

Fun facts to know and tell:

- I slammed a 35lb plate on my finger trying to rack it. I have a big bruise on my fingernail now. Stupid Bally's and their messy gym (well it was my fault but I felt like blaming them).

- a couple knuckleheads were doing chest while I was working out. The short(er) muscular types with the muscle shirts, sun tattoos on the shoulder and suchlike. Screaming and exhorting eachother with primeval screams of 'CMON BITCH' and 'TOO LIGHT BABY'. Sprinting back and forth from the flat bench to the hammer strength bench while doing supersets, and debating proper form for incline fly's for the whole gym to hear. Plus inbetween sets the louder one would wail away to the song playing on his MP3 player (I assume). It souned like 'Working for the Weekend' by Loverboy but I can't be sure.

-I don't mean to be mean but some really obese guy showered next to me (it's like a prison shower, just a big pit with showerheads) and his shower water started splashing on me, so I hustled out of there pronto, came home and felt like immersing myself in boiling water. It was really gross.
 
what a disturbing story. :evil: Every part, but especially the end with fat guy water run-off. I can't wait to see the movie with Johnnie Depp. :lmao: K for ya.
 
Tom Treutlein said:
How much weight have you gained thus far?
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About 4-5lbs as of today. Started at 178 now about 183. So not an appreciable amount to date.

I understand the majority of the gains come in the intensity (my current) phase; I hope this is the case and being pretty careful about keeping volume down now.

I also have to calculate my daily calories. 80% of the time I eat the following (on weekends I eat whatever), but this is unchanged from how I used to eat so this isn't a variable I don't think:

Meal 1: coffee, oatmeal with protein powder and milk
Meal 2: 3 egg whites + ham + cheese breakfast sandwich
Meal 3: Fruit (banana, orange, berries) + yogurt + protein powder + grapenuts (:)) smoothie. I also had fish oil here.
Meal 4: Preworkout shake + apple
Meal 5: Postworkout shake
Meal 6: Turkey/ham lunchmeat/tomato/cucumber sandwich w/chips (sometimes I miss this meal)
Meal 7: Fish, chicken or spaghetti with meat sauce, veggies
Meal 8: P&B toast + grapenuts
Meal 9: Protein shake

I also try to drink the requisite amount of water during the day.

I finally have a food scale so I'm going to see if my diet supports my weight gain goals.
 
Tom Treutlein said:
You should be eating 3600+ calories a day. I doubt what you're eating adds up to that amount. Care to add it for us?
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Did a rough estimate based on food packaging labels. I can't figure out how to use my damn electronic scale :( (it has preprogrammed food codes and nutrional amounts)

Meal 1: coffee, oatmeal with protein powder and milk = 270
Meal 2: 3 egg whites + ham + cheese breakfast sandwich = 250
Meal 3: Fruit (banana, orange, berries) + yogurt + protein powder + grapenuts () smoothie. I also had fish oil here. = 400
Meal 4: Preworkout shake + apple = 300
Meal 5: Postworkout shake = 340
Meal 6: Turkey/ham lunchmeat/tomato/cucumber sandwich w/chips (sometimes I miss this meal) = 400
Meal 7: Fish, chicken or spaghetti with meat sauce, veggies = 500
Meal 8: P&B toast + grapenuts = 240
Meal 9: Protein shake = 280

So that gets me to roughly 3000. You're right I could use another high calorie meal or two (critical that I don't miss any of the above, too)

Time to add that Big Mac :p
 
Jim Ouini said:
So that gets me to roughly 3000. You're right I could use another high calorie meal or two (critical that I don't miss any of the above, too)

Time to add that Big Mac :p
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You already have a lot of meals, you might try adding more food to what you already eat rather than putting in more meals which can be problematic from scheduling. For instance - keep in the egg yokes in your morning meal. Add several whole eggs to each of your shakes. When you have a shake, eat a tuna sandwhich too or some other standard food. Those shakes supply protein but are relatively low on calories and you aren't exactly eating a lot of regular food either so this is more of a factor. In college I used to live on eggs and ground beef/turkey. I'd brown the ground beef and then throw the eggs in - have that on 2 sandwiches or with a vegtables and rice. Very cheap with a lot of protein and cals.
 
Madcow2 said:
You already have a lot of meals, you might try adding more food to what you already eat rather than putting in more meals which can be problematic from scheduling. For instance - keep in the egg yokes in your morning meal. Add several whole eggs to each of your shakes. When you have a shake, eat a tuna sandwhich too or some other standard food. Those shakes supply protein but are relatively low on calories and you aren't exactly eating a lot of regular food either so this is more of a factor. In college I used to live on eggs and ground beef/turkey. I'd brown the ground beef and then throw the eggs in - have that on 2 sandwiches or with a vegtables and rice. Very cheap with a lot of protein and cals.
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You are right it's already hard to get all my meals in and I'm not a big eater to start with.

Since I do like ground beef quite a bit I think I'll make my morning sammich a bit bigger and add some calories to my shakes, like maybe peanut butter.

Re: adding egg, are you talking raw? I read here http://www.eggwhitesint.com/healthfacts.htm that you have to cook it to make the protein available (although I know we're just talking calories here). Or did I fall for some marketing BS? ;)
 
Jim Ouini said:
Re: adding egg, are you talking raw? I read here http://www.eggwhitesint.com/healthfacts.htm that you have to cook it to make the protein available (although I know we're just talking calories here). Or did I fall for some marketing BS? ;)
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There are other issues with unpasteurized raw eggs but availability of protein isn't one to worry about. That said, I still do the raw egg thing from time to time (do as I say not as I do sort of thing - I keep my fingers crossed). You could always buy the pasteurized stuff in a carton and pour it in or cook a bunch up and put some scoops into the blender with your other shake stuff. The most important thing though is to get more cals into yourself on a consistent basis.
 
Madcow2 said:
There are other issues with unpasteurized raw eggs but availability of protein isn't one to worry about. That said, I still do the raw egg thing from time to time (do as I say not as I do sort of thing - I keep my fingers crossed). You could always buy the pasteurized stuff in a carton and pour it in or cook a bunch up and put some scoops into the blender with your other shake stuff. The most important thing though is to get more cals into yourself on a consistent basis.
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Yeah I have the pasteurized stuff in a carton that I use.

I think I'll make some taco meat out of ground beef and add some egg for a breakfast burrito and maybe at lunch too. Now that I can eat.
 
Try blending in 2 tbsp (1 serving) of ANPB per shake. Do that for two shakes and you hit 420 extra calories.

I use 16 oz. milk, 2 scoops ON 100% Whey protein, and 1 cup (2 servings) of oats in my shakes. I have three a day, plus three solid meals. Puts me close to the 4000 calorie mark, if not over it.

If you can, try to have a tuna sandwich. Tuna, 2 tbsp mayo, and 2 slices of whole wheat potato bread (my personal favorite). If you don't want to deal with the mayo, since some are critical of it, you could try relish or mixing it into a salad.
 
Tom Treutlein said:
Try blending in 2 tbsp (1 serving) of ANPB per shake. Do that for two shakes and you hit 420 extra calories.

I use 16 oz. milk, 2 scoops ON 100% Whey protein, and 1 cup (2 servings) of oats in my shakes. I have three a day, plus three solid meals. Puts me close to the 4000 calorie mark, if not over it.

If you can, try to have a tuna sandwich. Tuna, 2 tbsp mayo, and 2 slices of whole wheat potato bread (my personal favorite). If you don't want to deal with the mayo, since some are critical of it, you could try relish or mixing it into a salad.
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Thanks for the suggestions, I'll definitely add those in some form.

The good thing about tuna and ground beef is I can make a bunch at beginning of the week and dip into it each day.

And ANPB is all natural peanut butter?
 
Yep, that's exactly what it is. I recommend either the Trader Joe's brand, or Skippy's new natural peanut butter. It doesn't need to be mixed, the oil stays in the peanut butter. The only thing is, they use a bit of sugar and palm oil as an emulsifier. I don't think that's too harmful, though, and it tastes damn good!
 
Jim Ouini said:
Bench and BB row:

240 x 1 x 3

All in all pretty good workout. The only concern I have is that I may be approaching my 1/3 x 3 max too soon. I guess my 3 rep max isn't much higher than my 5 rep max from the volume phase; let's just say I'm getting to know the 2.5lb plates very well :p
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I was the same in weeks 6,7 and 8. I just added 1.25Kg each side of the bar each week and felt very pleased to make the three reps. It seemed almost silly to be adding those little weights but they add up as the weeks pass and I didn't think I'd make the lifts if I added more.
 
majutsu said:
what a disturbing story. :evil: Every part, but especially the end with fat guy water run-off. I can't wait to see the movie with Johnnie Depp. :lmao: K for ya.
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It was just one of those strange days at the gym. Makes it interesting I suppose :)

Yep, that's exactly what it is. I recommend either the Trader Joe's brand, or Skippy's new natural peanut butter. It doesn't need to be mixed, the oil stays in the peanut butter. The only thing is, they use a bit of sugar and palm oil as an emulsifier. I don't think that's too harmful, though, and it tastes damn good!
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Headed to Costco and TJ today, in fact. Will check it out.

I was the same in weeks 6,7 and 8. I just added 1.25Kg each side of the bar each week and felt very pleased to make the three reps. It seemed almost silly to be adding those little weights but they add up as the weeks pass and I didn't think I'd make the lifts if I added more.
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Yep I used to laugh at the 2.5's before this program. But now I'm learning what the Japanese mean by 'Kaizen'.
 
They also have smaller weight increments that can be attached. When you have a program that relies on percents, this really helps you make the jumps correctly. Percents are without doubt the best way to train - I do not include them in the 5x5 simply because of the wide breadth of people implementing the program. It's better for them to go by feel because a percentage scheme would have everyone following it to the letter and for some it wouldn't be enough and for others it would bury them.
 
Jim Ouini said:
Headed to Costco and TJ today, in fact. Will check it out.

QUOTE]

costco is my fav store!

10# sirlion
10# chicken breast
8# turkey burger
24 pack of kirkland sport drink (cheap gatorade)
2 12pack of tuna
case of ramen
case of tomato soup
and the 3# bags of salad mix
Click to expand...
 
Madcow2 said:
They also have smaller weight increments that can be attached. When you have a program that relies on percents, this really helps you make the jumps correctly. Percents are without doubt the best way to train - I do not include them in the 5x5 simply because of the wide breadth of people implementing the program. It's better for them to go by feel because a percentage scheme would have everyone following it to the letter and for some it wouldn't be enough and for others it would bury them.
Click to expand...

Those magenetic Platemates? Hmm, since I'm planning on continuing this type of program, maybe I'll invest in some.

costco is my fav store!

10# sirlion
10# chicken breast
8# turkey burger
24 pack of kirkland sport drink (cheap gatorade)
2 12pack of tuna
case of ramen
case of tomato soup
and the 3# bags of salad mix
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Our staples there are frozen berries, the individually frozen chicken breasts and frozen ground beef chubs (9% fat). Very handy.

Oh and the 48 pack of toilet paper ;)
 
Has anyone tried Costco's pork chops (boneless and huge)? They are really cheap - almost ground beef price and super quality. They sell them in a large flat pack. We love them.
 
Madcow2 said:
Has anyone tried Costco's pork chops (boneless and huge)? They are really cheap - almost ground beef price and super quality. They sell them in a large flat pack. We love them.
Click to expand...

Never tried 'em. We usually get frozen meat there since it's only my wife and I.

We do enjoy their fresh meat for family get togethers, like their NY strip :chomp:

Funny story, my sister lives in the Bay Area and a few years back she saw a basketball player who played for the NBA team at Costco. He'd just joined the team from the Soviet Union and she said he had a cart loaded with nothing but meat, just loaded to the brim.

I guess in America we take it for granted we can get meat anytime anywhere.
 
Madcow2 said:
Has anyone tried Costco's pork chops (boneless and huge)? They are really cheap - almost ground beef price and super quality. They sell them in a large flat pack. We love them.
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my pops loves those
actually, i'm a big seafood fan
so the giant packages of oysters and crab legs are hard to pass up.....
 
Dammit! I just wokeup and due to this program and work I've been so hungry lately. Now I see posts about pork chops, oysters, and crab legs. I hold no quarter. I'll eat seafood or...land...food. Anything to satisfy my stomach.

I'm going to Costco this Wednesday or Friday, madcow. I'll check out the pork chops.

By the by, I've flucuated between 186-188 since I've been on the program. I routinely eat 4400 calories a day. As of this morning (had my first record week session yesterday), I weigh 190. Even still I hit 190 a week ago at a random point. I weigh myself daily, just to keep a steady log of where I'm at. Anyway, I multiply my bodyweight by 20 and I come off needing 3800 a day. My job, which you may remember, requires a lot of lifting and moving for three hours a night. Now, I may even jump past that 4400 calorie mark daily, yet I feel as if I might not be eating enough still.

What do you think? Is it just too early in the program to see anything yet, or do I maybe need a few hundred more calories?
 
I had thought you had put it on hold for a bit. It's impossible to say because you have a new very labor intensive job as well as this program. If you continue to get stronger in the rep/set ranges required you are on the right track. In reality, an experienced lifter will not see the bulk of the gains showing up until after the volume phase. People here are just not used to the stimulation of this style program hence they've gotten gains throughout - this will normalize for them over time (like taking an all machine trained person and putting them in the rack doing squats and deads for the first time, the program design won't mean all that much because they are going to gain regardless). I can't make the call on your diet. More activity = more calories so with all your new work it's concievable your requirements are up very significantly. How long have you been running it and have you made any changes to accomodate the job?
 
No changes. Doing the full program, and planning to hit the 3x deloading, unless by the time it comes around I feel the need for otherwise.

I was going to put it on hold, then I just decided to bite the bullet. My lower back hasn't bothered me from all the volume at all, aside from last night when I tweaked it by twisting and tossing a bunch of 65 lb. boxes - I wanted to get the hell out of there, and I was just in a sort've rounded position. I knew it was stupid to do at the time, yet I still did it. :rolleyes: Luckily it was only hurting for about half an hour. I feel fine again today.

I've been running it for two full weeks. Yesterday was the first day of the third week, the first record week, of the volume phase.
 
I referred to 'Power Eating' by Kleiner, and according to her at 185lbs I need 4200 calories per day for building.

So I need another grand or so.

I made the following changes yesterday/today:

1. Add 2 tbsp panut butter and 1/2 cup oatmeal to my pre/post workout and bedtime protein shakes = at least 800 cals additonal per day

2. Add ground beef and egg breakfast burrito to eat with my morning fruit smoothie = 300 cals? or so I figure

I bought those uncooked tortillas at Costco and they are incredible. You put them on a frying pan for 3 mins/side and you have fresh warm tortillas. Highly recommended.

3. Made a bowl of my famous 3 bean and beef chili. Will eat as a snack or maybe with my afternoon sandwich = 300 cals?

I tried all these and it seems doable. I feel kind of weighted down after the shakes now, though. And chugging the the them with oatmeal isn't bad at all, a bit thick but I'll play around with the liquid ratio (I have a very good blender)

With me being right in the throes of the intensity phase, I'm hoping these additional calories will fit right in with the adaptation.

EDIT: I've never been a big eater so 4200 cals is pretty difficult. I can only eat 2 small slices of pizza in one sitting. Some of my friends can eat an entire pizza!
 
Good to see you like the protein shakes with oatmeal. I usually water them down a bit in my thermos and sip on it at work. I shake it lightly before each sip so the oats get stirred into each little bit, rather than them sinking to the bottom and me having to chew threw them at the end.

When I used to use a cup, I'd use a spoon to stir between sips. I usually finished one off in 3-5 minutes, though.
 
Tom Treutlein said:
Good to see you like the protein shakes with oatmeal. I usually water them down a bit in my thermos and sip on it at work. I shake it lightly before each sip so the oats get stirred into each little bit, rather than them sinking to the bottom and me having to chew threw them at the end.

When I used to use a cup, I'd use a spoon to stir between sips. I usually finished one off in 3-5 minutes, though.
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Yep my blender whirrs the oatmeal into nothingness, so it's not half bad at all and a damn easy way to get the extra cals.

Today's workout Wk 6 Day 2
BW after workout: 185.5

Deadlift:
135 x 5
185 x 2
225 x 1
275 x 1 (sumo and conventional ea.)
315 x 1 (s & c ea.)
330 x 3 x 3 (sumo)

First time ditching the touch and go. I reset my hands after each rep. Holy shit it makes it harder :mix: I felt a twinge in my left buttock after the second set; the other thing is that I need to practice my mindset when doing this since I do all my checks on the first rep and feel kind of rushed in the 2nd and 3rd. Need to practice.

I also deaded the weight back up to the rack to take the weights off, conventional :)

Military
95 x 3
115 x 1
130 x 3 x 3

I really suck at these. I'm messing around with my grip and elbow positioning. I tried to do these with elbows facing forward. Last rep was more of a push press

Pullups
40 x 3 x 3

Used semi-wide grip to hopefully take some stress of my elbow. Pretty easy. Have some room to spare here.

I also messed around with pullthroughs for the first time. 3 x 10-10-8 at 80, 100 and 110.

I did them to see if I'd feel anything in my glute since I thought I might've pulled something doing deads. Plus I just wanted to try them :) I think I like them, despite all the crazy looks from the beautiful people.
 
You don't need to take your hands off (even though some people will stand back up and completely reset). Just let the weight settle on the floor and reset your position to your starting point for the initial pull (most people aren't in perfect pulling position after the weight is lowered).
 
Yeah I'm still working on my tempo. I wanted to be absolutely sure the weight was dead which is why I reset my hands, temptation was there to semi-touch and go.

Sets definitely felt more intense, which is good.

BTW, any problem doing adding pullthroughs on Wed during this phase? I can always wait til this cycle is over.
 
The quesiton becomes, how much excess capacity do you have? I don't know and unless you are used to similar volume/intensity/frequency programs it's going to be tough to hazard a guess. The safe thing to do would be not add them. If you feel like you have a lot of gas you could add 2-3 sets for reps and keep it light for conditioning rather than strength.
 
I want to work on hamstring strength, so I'll wait for my next cycle.

I don't want to add variables even though I had some left in the tank, at least this week.

Thanks.
 
Tom Treutlein said:
No responses to post #24, madcow?
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No - screw that guy. :)

It seemed just a status report with a back tweak thrown in. I'm guessing it's going okay? You didn't really provide much outside where you were, that you mildly tweaked your back, and that you were opting for the 3x deload schedule. Nothing sounds off. Do you like it so far? How are you feeling one it?
 
Love it, thus far. Squatting thrice a week is intense. I'm actually about to go train in a few minutes. I usually feel a bit tired in the morning, even with 7-8 hours of sleep, but I think it's more of me taking a while to get going in the AM, rather than an overload issue.

I just want to make sure I grow off this, and my job is very unforgiving sometimes, so I'm hoping to just throw in some more calories.
 
Jim Ouini said:
First time ditching the touch and go. I reset my hands after each rep. Holy shit it makes it harder
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I guess I'm one of the lucky ones but I always feel that when I've lowered the bar back to the ground that it has gone back down precisely in my groove. As such I just give a half-second pause to feel that I've relaxed the bar on the ground and then pull again. Like you mentioned for yourself, I like to mess around for a few seconds being sure that hands and the like are just right before that first lift.

Jim Ouini said:
I also deaded the weight back up to the rack to take the weights off, conventional :)

I also messed around with pullthroughs for the first time. 3 x 10-10-8 at 80, 100 and 110.
Click to expand...
You're reminding me of my week 6. It felt like there just wasn't enough volume and I kept wanting to do more. I was doing abs work already and added in grip work to burn some of the extra time I felt I owed myself in the gym. :)
Week 7 felt like a real workout again and then you're into weeks 8 and 9 which, I realised afterwards although madcow saw it at the time, left me having loaded again. I'd suggest you not be afraid to spread week 9 over a week and a half or even 8 and 9 over three weeks. Just see how you start to feel when you are hitting your 3-rep limits.

I keep thinking of trying pull-throughs. Must get a round tuit.
 
Blut Wump said:
You're reminding me of my week 6. It felt like there just wasn't enough volume and I kept wanting to do more. I was doing abs work already and added in grip work to burn some of the extra time I felt I owed myself in the gym. :)
Week 7 felt like a real workout again and then you're into weeks 8 and 9 which, I realised afterwards although madcow saw it at the time, left me having loaded again. I'd suggest you not be afraid to spread week 9 over a week and a half or even 8 and 9 over three weeks. Just see how you start to feel when you are hitting your 3-rep limits.
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Yeah, I think especially after week 4, wks 5 and maybe 6 you're left thinking - 'That's it?' (Well today's deadlifts were hard, actually).

Thank you for the relaying the personal experience and recommendation; I'll definitely be conservative the next few weeks.

For someone who's always been in the gym (doing the 1 bodypart per week routine for many years) it's tough for me NOT to think about going almost everyday, and if it gets to that point, spreading out 6 workouts in 3 weeks will be tough :mix:

But that's part of the paradigm shift for me, being able to see my workouts in terms of blocks, as opposed to individual weightlifting sessions. The proverbial 'big picture'.
 
I felt the same when I saw the 2x per week option for the intensity phase. I thought "how could that possibly be enough time in the gym?".

I'm still not sure it'd be enough during weeks 5 and 6 but I have been thinking that switching to the 2x per week schedule for weeks 8 and 9 might be sensible, maybe even 7, 8, 9 to avoid loading the body back up again. At that point I think it might be worth giving the 2x protocol a whirl all the way through the intensity phase and fill in with cardio and core work.

GhettoStudMuffin tried it and his journal is on here entitled "A lifter's Iron log". he starts the madcow 5x5 on page 10.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=346149&page=10&pp=20
 
Blut Wump said:
I felt the same when I saw the 2x per week option for the intensity phase. I thought "how could that possibly be enough time in the gym?".

I'm still not sure it'd be enough during weeks 5 and 6 but I have been thinking that switching to the 2x per week schedule for weeks 8 and 9 might be sensible, maybe even 7, 8, 9 to avoid loading the body back up again. At that point I think it might be worth giving the 2x protocol a whirl all the way through the intensity phase and fill in with cardio and core work.

GhettoStudMuffin tried it and his journal is on here entitled "A lifter's Iron log". he starts the madcow 5x5 on page 10.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=346149&page=10&pp=20
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If you actually sit down and calculate the differences in load via worksets the 3x and 2x are not horribly different (basically I'm only counting the top set of the pyramid). There is a noticable difference in intensity because obviously your best 3x3 is lower than your best 1x3 but we are only talking 9 reps total over a week (1x3 hits squat/bench/row). Still it can wind up being a bit much because a lot of people may not recover sufficiently from the loading phase before this begins to build too high. If you can deload and keep the weights light with the 3x you can swap over to a 2x protocol after a few weeks and continue to raise intensity - it might be useful to peak out with doubles and singles with an eventual psuedo-competition/testing day further out.
 
Hm. Well my plan is to stick with 3x deload for this run through. I'm being real careful to add only 5lbs week to week on all my lifts up until my record weeks even though I *probably* could do a bit more (except for benching).

I don't know exactly what my 1/3 x 3 maxes are for wks 8-9 but I'm going to extrapolate from my 5RM I used in Wk 4.

I guess I have to be somewhat adaptable with these numbers since I definitely feel stronger, especially in my deads, glute tweak notwithstanding.

4/21 update (Wk 6 intensity)

Hammies/glutes feel pretty sore. Probably from the pullthroughs (didn't really feel them as I was doing them, though)

BW 186.6. Could be that I stuffed myself with an extra 1000 cals yesterday; even randomly I've never been this heavy though *crosses fingers it's not a fluke*
 
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Today' workout Wk 6 Day 3

First of all the friggin neighbors decide to have their friggin tree cut down at friggin 7am in the friggin morning, friggin chainsaws and wood chippers, the whole friggin bit.

So waking up an hour early didn't sit well, I was a little bleary eyed during the workout

Squats (1 x 3)
135 x 5
185 x 2
225 x 1
255 x 1
275 x 1
295 x 1
315 x 1
335 x 1
350 x 3 (belted)

Last set was a parallel squat I think, I know I didn't get as deep as my warmups. I'm still working on my ATF form, mostly how much forward lean I can get away with and how much I can 'tuck' my butt at the bottom; regardless it all goes out the window on my workset ;)

Hopefully it's not too many warmups but with my new form I need to practice.

Bench (3 x 3)
135 x 5
185 x 2
225 x 1
235 x 3 x 3

These felt pretty good, especially since last weeks bench didn't go that well and this is my weak exercise.

BB row (3 x 3)
135 x 5
185 x 2
240 x 3 x 3

Also felt strong on these; only slightly used body english on my worksets and really felt my back pull the weight up.

Weighed myself afterwards and came in at 187, pretty happy with that. Started the program at 178 or so, and on BB program fluctuated between 178 and 183 for years (admittedly wasn't eating to gain, though)
 
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"Plus inbetween sets the louder one would wail away to the song playing on his MP3 player (I assume). It souned like 'Working for the Weekend' by Loverboy but I can't be sure."

Oh dam that was funny. I got a visual of Chris Farley on that SNL skit where he was dancing to that song at a chipindales try out. LOL Thanks for the laugh man, I needed that one.

........you said loverboy. :qt:
 
Wk 7 Day 1
BW after workout: 187.5. No weight gain from last week. Dang.

Squat (3 x 3)

135 x 5
185 x 2
225 x 1
255 x 1
275 x 1
295 x 1
315 x 1
335 x 3 x 3

Best squat sets I've had, ever. I was real happy with the depth and dldnt belt up at all. I found out I really need to warm up my ankles with my new technique.

Bench (1 x 3)
135 x 5
185 x 2
225 x 1
245 x 3

Ok set, tried to pinch my shoulder blades together but I think I lost it as soon as I unracked it. Had to grind out the last rep.

BB row (1 x 3)
135 x 5
185 x 2
225 x 1
245 x 3

I'm really starting to feel strong on these, my elbow is getting better mostly because I'm not messing around with any isolation arm work I think.

Fun facts to know and tell:

-some powerlifter looking guy came into the gym today, never seen him before. He started counting all the 45lb plates in the gym like there weren't going to be enough for him for his bench workout. I got kind of scared and hoarded my measly amount.

-anyone else doing 5 x 5 just feel a lot more manly? Maybe it's the sound of the plates hitting the floor as you deweight the bar, or the fact you're living in the squat rack. Regardless, I'm considering walking around with the permanant lat spread swagger.

-saw an old guy (60 +?) was deadlifting 275 for reps. Maybe only the 2nd guy I've seen doing deads since I've been at Bally's. Props to him.
 
Tom Treutlein said:
Shit, that bodyweight just started shooting up now, didn't it? Congratulations, bor. Good stuff.
Click to expand...

Thanks!

It's either the body adapting or all that ANPB and oatmeal ;)
 
Jim Ouini said:
Wk 7 Day 1
BW after workout: 187.5. No weight gain from last week. Dang.
Click to expand...

Well, look at it this way: you are stronger than you've ever been (don't try new techniques with heavy triples) and your weight has stabalized above where it topped out before i.e. I think you said your heaviest was 186 or some such. The diet might have hurt your gains from this cycle. See how it plays out and keep at it but if you are getting stronger you are on the right track, your body might have been adapting early when you didn't have much intake though. Who knows. Not a big deal in the long run. If not this loading phase, then the next. Just see how it goes.

I hate to bring it up again because some people on this board are like food Gestapo but if you have trouble getting in enough food quantity you might have to opt for more calorically dense foods, maybe these aren't textbook healthy but they certainly won't harm getting bigger and stronger although if your current goal is BF below 8% (which will harm getting bigger or stronger) you'll have to carefully manage or avoid them. What I'm saying is - don't run from fried chicken, pizza, cheeseburgers, or tamer intakes (obviously this is the voice of Satan). Don't live on them, but many people have had to turn down the quality knob on their diets to gain more muscle. For those who plan very well and can ingest a lot of food, maybe that's 300-330. For those who are predisposed to low BF, fast metabolism, and small appetite - maybe they need to evalutate how badly they want to eat clean 100% of the time vs. putting on some muscle and getting to 200-210. A super clean diet and getting big and strong (with reasonable bodyfat - not some tub of lard) can intersect but there is no law forcing them to. It always seems like the people who are counting egg whites and eating ultra clean every meal are the ones who want to get bigger but can't - usually these people are fairly lean and this is related to insufficient caloric intake. So take from that what you will.
 
Yep I plan on letting this one run it's course and then do another run though. I am very happy with the results both in strength and weight gain to date.

re: diet, I have been one of those who ate super clean during the week and ate whatever on the weekends.

I've also been pretty lean as well, so I'm pretty much the poster child for what you described.

Being <10% bodyfat isnt one of my goals so getting sufficient calories is now my #1 priority.
 
Wk 7 Day 2

BW after workout: 188.5 (up a pound from last week) :dance2:

I added brown rice to my morning smoothie instead of grapenuts since its more 'calorically dense'. Luckily my blender grinds it up but it was still - as Austin Powers might say - 'a bit nutty'

Deadlift
135 x 5
185 x 2
225 x 1

I tried these sets sumo and conventional while standing on an aerobics stepper as per illuminati's suggestion. It worked great although for conventional I really had to squat down to reach the bar. My knees felt way over my feet. I tried to do these fast just to try it out. I like it.

275 x 1 (s&c)
295 x 1 (s&c)
315 x 1 (s)
335 x 3 x 3 (s)

Working sets felt great which suprised me since 315 felt bad. I have my tempo a lot better while deweighting the bar on the floor. I may have instinctively done a little butt rock in between reps to get that stretch reflex, though.

Military Press
Bar x 10
65 x 5
95 x 1
115 x 1
135 x 3 x 3

I really suck at these. First set was like a push press. Last set I moved my hands in a bit so my forefinger was right about where that first knurl is on the bar. That seemed to help. Moved my feet out to shouder width, too.

Pullups
45 x 3 x 3

Lots left in the tank on this one.

Next week is max week. My goal is 365 DL for Wk 9, although I may try this for a single. That would make me very happy.
 
Jim Ouini said:
Wk 7 Day 2

BW after workout: 188.5 (up a pound from last week) :dance2:

I added brown rice to my morning smoothie instead of grapenuts since its more 'calorically dense'.
Click to expand...

At least your weight is going in the right direction now. That's good to see. Strength still looks good too - setting PRs consistently is very satisfying. More weight will follow sooner or later and for next cycle you already have your maxes lined up to slide right into week 3 and week 8 (of course you can adjust as needed if you find you are much stronger when you begin again). You might try substituting push presses for military next time. A lot of people get better results and if you hate military it might be just the thing.

BTW - I think our definitions of what is 'calorically dense' might be a bit different. :)
 
Madcow2 said:
At least your weight is going in the right direction now. That's good to see. Strength still looks good too - setting PRs consistently is very satisfying. More weight will follow sooner or later and for next cycle you already have your maxes lined up to slide right into week 3 and week 8 (of course you can adjust as needed if you find you are much stronger when you begin again).
Click to expand...

Well its always been going up, it never went down. I'd just hit a 3-4 day plateau last week is all which was disappointing (not discouraging) since I was picking up what seemed like a pound a day.

The PR's really make this program satisfying, especially in deads 'n squats. Keeps you motivated to stay the course.

Madcow2 said:
You might try substituting push presses for military next time. A lot of people get better results and if you hate military it might be just the thing.
Click to expand...

I figure what I'm doing is a hybrid right now anyway. A little dip when I need it but it's not a concerted effort to get it in the lift. It probably would allow me to go heavier, though.

Madcow2 said:
BTW - I think our definitions of what is 'calorically dense' might be a bit different. :)
Click to expand...

I was thinking calories per unit volume. No?
 
Jim Ouini said:
I figure what I'm doing is a hybrid right now anyway. A little dip when I need it but it's not a concerted effort to get it in the lift. It probably would allow me to go heavier, though.
Click to expand...

Yeah, why not give it a shot. You might find you just aren't good at strict pressing overhead but make much better gains push pressing - much more weight too. Then when you go back to military you'll find yourself much stronger (don't apply this to other exercises though - not a license to cheat big).

Jim Ouini said:
I was thinking calories per unit volume. No?
Click to expand...

I was thinking 1/2 pound cheeseburger to go with your protein shake :)
 
Madcow2 said:
Yeah, why not give it a shot. You might find you just aren't good at strict pressing overhead but make much better gains push pressing - much more weight too. Then when you go back to military you'll find yourself much stronger (don't apply this to other exercises though - not a license to cheat big).:)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice I think I'll try it next cycle.

Madcow2 said:
I was thinking 1/2 pound cheeseburger to go with your protein shake :)
Click to expand...

:lmao: Yep just a bit different lol
 
Wk 7 Day 3
BW after workout = 190 :dance2:

Well it may have been water. I weighed myself last night on our scale and was 191.6. This morning was 188. So there's some fluctuation.

But still :dance2: :dance2:

I feel like a chubby girl who weighs herself after cardio to see how many ounces she lost (BTW, no offense to any chubs here :))

Squat
135 x 5
185 x 2
225 x 1
255 x 1
275 x 1
295 x 1
315 x 1
355 x 3

355 was belted and I think I only got to parallel. I had just chugged some water and put my belt on so it felt kind of uncomfortable, like it was pushing on a water balloon. I got all distracted and didn't get as low as I wanted.

Bench
135 x 5
185 x 2
225 x 1
240 x 3 x 3

BB row
135 x 5
185 x 1
225 x 1
245 x 3 x 3

Feeling good, lots left in the tank.

Fun facts to know and tell:

-some guy was doing really heavy cable cross overs (I assume with the whole stack) and really stepping into it. Well when he finished the stacks slammed back down and it was kind of funny to see him catch air.

-2 dudes were doing smith machine upright rows right next to me when I was squatting. It wasn't so bad except then one of the guy's girlfriend slithered inbetween the bar and the mirror and pushed up on the bar with him on his last couple sets, like she was front squatting and he was upright rowing, but at the same time. Looked like some kind of bizarre gym mating ritual, kind of distracting

-afterwards my wife wanted to go to Red Robin for lunch so we trundle on down to the strip mall. I felt OK about it since it's all about getting some calorically dense chicken wings and fries ;)
 
Woke up today and felt horrible. Vomiting, body aches, chills. Havent' eaten anything all day and had to skip today's workout (Wk 8 Day 1).

We'll see what how I feel tomorrow, maybe it'll be good to spread out the next 6 workouts into 3 weeks.
 
that sucks man. rest up and try to eat enough carbs to keep up with the chills and fever if you have one.

hope you start feeling better soon. :)
 
Well it may have been water. I weighed myself last night on our scale and was 191.6. This morning was 188. So there's some fluctuation.


Yea i have learned this too..If i workout depending on what and how much, you can make the scale go up anywere from 2 to 5lbs easy..So i gave up on the scale idea...If you weight in morning thats mostly real weight i would think.So you wake up at 188 and go run on a treadmill for 10 minutes and you will weight more, aint that some shit? Eat a big meal and still weight the same too.It still dont make any sence to me that you can weight like 180 dont eat or drink anything go lift,run,smoke some bud and your weight will go up 2lbs or more, crazy shit...Wish someone had a good answer for that one.I event test my scale over and over with weights ect its right on the money.
So how did i fix that? Took it out side and ran it over and did a burnout on it now i have nothing to worry about any more..The minor is next its not my friend either on some days lol :evil:
 
JohnRobHolmes said:
that sucks man. rest up and try to eat enough carbs to keep up with the chills and fever if you have one.

hope you start feeling better soon. :)
Click to expand...

Thanks! Turned out to be a stomach virus of some kind, I think. Worst of the symptoms were over in 24hrs or so.

Despite not eating anything on Monday and half of Tuesday, I went back to the gym today and on minimal food intake the past 12hrs or so - pure oatmeal, dry toast, 1 chicken breast and veggie dinner.

Wk 8 Day 1

Squat
135 x 5
185 x 2
225 x 1
255 x 1
275 x 1
295 x 1
315 x 1
340 x 3 x 3

1st set was to parallel so I belted up my last 2 sets and that helped me get lower. Plus I was kind of scared I'd lost some strength due to my sickness so I was on the cautious side.

(BTW ever have to work in with some random guy, especially on bench, and he immediately announces he's coming off a sickness so he's just 'going light' ?)

Bench
135 x 5
185 x 1
225 x 1
255 x 3

Barely got the last rep. If I'd had a spotter I probably would've given up, heh. But since I had no options I was able to grind it out. Set didn't feel that great but that's a heavy bench for me.

BBrow
135 x 5
185 x 1
225 x 1
255 x 1
275 x 3

275 probably too heavy. I think I used too much body english on it and didn't feel it as much as I usually do.

BW after workout 186 :( Down 4lbs from last workout, I'm sure due to lack of food, after all it couldn't be my muscles atrophying in only 2 days. (could it?)

The good news is that my strength didn't appear to be affected. This may turn out to be a blessing in disguise as it forces me to spread out my workouts over the last 2 weeks of intensity phase.
 
you lost gut and water weight mostly. your muscles wouldnt atrophy that fast. you might have lost some volume, but your strength wasnt affected so its all good.

keep it up
 
JohnRobHolmes said:
you lost gut and water weight mostly. your muscles wouldnt atrophy that fast. you might have lost some volume, but your strength wasnt affected so its all good.

keep it up
Click to expand...

Yeah I figured but you know I was thinking I suffered from a mild case of muscle dysmorphia:

People with this disorder obsess about being small and undeveloped. They worry that they are too little and too frail...they believe their muscles are inadequate.
Click to expand...
 
Still have some lingering effects from that stomach flu, haven't been eating normal so calories are probably <3000 per day (supposed to get 4200).

BW after workout 186, I guess to be expected.

Week 8 Day 2

Deadlift
135 x 5
185 x 2
225 x 1
275 x 1
295 x 1
315 x 1
345 x 3 x 3

All sumo-style. Felt pretty good, had to grind em out but the weight kept moving. I was going to try 365 for a single but thought I'd save that for next week.

Military
Bar x 10
75 x 2
95 x 1
135 x 2
140 x 1 (failed)
135 x 3 (push press)
140 x 3 (push press)

Pullups
BW x 1 x 2
55 x 3 x 3
70 x 2 (failed last rep)

Overall happy with the workout. Next week I'll try for 365 DL which would be a huge PR for me. I hope I'm fully recovered by then.
 
Last edited:
Wk 8 Day 3
BW after workout = 186

Finally fully recovered from the stomach virus, felt good going to the gym. Still on 2 x wk lifting for Wks 8-9.

Squat (1x3)
135 x 5
185 x 2
225 x 1
275 x 1
295 x 1
315 x 1
335 x 1
360 x 3 (belted)
365 x 1 (belted)

A friend of mine showed up right at my 3 rep set. First time I've had a spotter in months, so with that peace of mind I went for a single with 365. Form was in the netherworld between 'ATF' and 'below parallel' (according to him). Felt strong, though, will try to best it next week.

Bench
135 x 5
185 x 2
225 x 1
245 x 3 x 3

Heavy set was a grind. Pinched my shoulder blades together and it felt alright, like my stroke was shorter or something. Not sure if I'll be able to increase the weight next week unless I have a spotter.

BB row
135 x 5
185 x 2
225 x 1
255 x 3 x 3 (a bit o' body english ;))

Kind of a long workout as building up to my max weight squatting took awhile. Plus talked more than usual with my friend there. All good though.
 
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Week 9 Day 1

BW after workout = 189. I gained most of the weight back from being sick, just gettting back to eating normally :dance2:

Squat (3 x 3)
Warmup to 345 x 3 x 3

Terrible squat workout. Had to belt up and even then I had trouble just getting to parallel. Don't know what happened.

My knee was bothering me last night after our 160 lb. mastiff ran into it while chasing our cat. Felt like it was hyperextended but that's no excuse, didn't really notice it during my workout. Just didn't have it today.

Bench
Warmup to 260 x 3.

Felt pretty good. My friend showed up and worked in and egged me on to try 275 for a single. I got it with no problem, bar kept moving albeit slowly.

BB row
Warmup to 280 x 3.

Form broke down and had to use my legs more than I wanted to. I knew it was going to be too heavy from last week but this being Week 9 I didn't want to drop the weight.

Overall I'm looking forward to next cycle volume phase so I can work out some things with my form.
 
Wk 9 Day 2
BW after workout = 191 :dance2:

Deadlift (sumo)
warmup to 355 x 3. This felt good so I went to 365 x 3 x 2.

This is a huge PR for me, whether because of the strength increase from the program or switching to sumo style.

Push Press
warmup to 145 x 3 x 3.

Even with the leg drive I didn't feel that strong on these, need to work on it.

Pullups
60 x 3 x 3

OK set. Didn't pull to sternum, only got my chin to the bar.

Overall pretty happy with the strength gain on these exercises. Next 5 x 5 cycle my goal is 405 dead :chomp:
 
Looks like things are working out well for you. I looked back at the first page and you began at 178 and were at 183 around week 6ish. Given that you had a stomach flu (bad season this year for sickness), and had a diet snafu and needed to add cals midway through, finishing around 191 is pretty solid. Judging from the dancing happy face above I'm guessing you are pleased with both the weight gain and strength. Just make sure you re-estimate your required intake and alter the diet accordingly for the next cycle as you are quite a bit bigger now. Hope your knee is better for the final squat workout - I'm sure you are looking forward to nailing a heavy triple.
 
Thanks! I really appreciate the input and help guiding us through the program.

190 was actually my goal when I started (I based it roughly on what super rice gained from his run through) so yes I am very pleased that I've been a steady 190-192 for the past week or so, and on a diet I think I can reasonably stick with - hope the calories needed because of the additonal lbs isn't too much ;)

Last workout of this cycle is Friday - I have to make up for that crappy 3 x 3 squat workout last week, hope to get that heavy triple (may go for a single, too) :mix:
 
Jim Ouini said:
190 was actually my goal when I started (I based it roughly on what super rice gained from his run through) s
Click to expand...

LOL - Super_Rice was the perfect guage. You both got sick as dogs in the 3x3 phase. Be careful what you wish for... :)
 
depends on his prior level of conditioning. i could see 40 pounds on mine in nine weeks. i could see 80 pounds on mine in two cycles since im fairly new at getting somewhere with my training.

13 pounds in nine weeks is solid man!
 
Tom Treutlein said:
405 dead from a 365 dead?

It's good you're ambitious, but is it really thinkable to add 40 lbs. to your deadlift in nine weeks?
Click to expand...

Well I'd be happy with a single :) That being said, I got 2 sets of 3 at 365 and the bar kept moving so I'm thinking I might've been able to go a bit heavier.

I think ditchnig the touch and go back in Wk 6 or thereabouts really helped my strength.

JohnRobHolmes said:
13 pounds in nine weeks is solid man!
Click to expand...

Thanks! You can't really tell except for the double chin ;)
 
Week 9 Day 3 (Final Workout!)

BW after workout = 191.5. So final weight gain after 9 wks was 13.5lbs.

I got excited for a sec and thought I was 197 but my buddy was stepping on the scale :mad:

Squat (1 x 3)

Warmup to 365. Missed this lift, according to my spotter I only got to parallel on my last rep. Wk 9 3/1 x 3 squat sessions have been quite disappointing due to lack of depth.

I think I have some technique issues as I'm still making adjustments to my stance. I think it's time to bring the camcorder in to the gym look at my form. And oh yeah this weight was probably just too heavy ;)

Bench (3 x 3)

Warmup to 250 x 3 x 3. OK set, bar kept moving each rep.

BB row (3 x 3)

Warmup to 250. Mis-read my journal should've been 260. Anyway, it felt good with just a touch of body english.

Actually, I was so disappointed again with my squats it kind of affected my mental approach to my other lifts :worried:

Next week I'm going to start 5 x 5 all over again. I think I may switch to box squats or just ATF squats starting lighter. Or do box on the Wed squat.

I may switch from sumo to conventional deads, or alternate within a workout.

Standing OHP I'll sub with push press, right from the beginning.

I may try power cleans instead of BB row but I'm a bit worried about my wrists. Plus I have to learn the proper form so I'm still debating.

Overall I obviously really like this program - I've made more progress in both strength and size in the past 9 wks than I did spinning my wheels in my old workouts (crappy final squat workouts not withstanding). Additonaly, the workouts are fun, the lifts are a challenge for me both in technique and in working at these higher intensities.

At some point I'll run through a DFHT program for 4-5 wks, but right now I want to build off my current base.

Madcow, thanks again for all the info and input on dual factor! :beer:
 
Well done on seeing it through to completion. Don't worry about those squats. Supposedly, it's the straining against the weight that makes you stronger at that stage not necessarily making every lift.

I've been doing power cleans for three weeks. They're hittting the tops of my forearms and the lower part of my biceps (maybe the brachialis) but my wrists have been fine. Also I'm doing box squats on Wednesday ultra wide. I'm enjoying the two switches. Monday and Friday I'm doing full ATF. There's no longer any guessing about whether you're going deep enough.

I noticed that you spread out weeks 8 and 9. How did you find it? Too easy? Still hard? Do you feel like you're loaded again and in need of a deload? I'm still unsure whether to run a 2x per week deload when I get there or do the 3x and do what you've done with weeks 8 and 9.

Congrats on the weight gain.
 
Jim, great results especially considering the stomach flu and the diet miscalc. I was going to add your results to my thread if you don't mind. Do you have any ideas on your strength progression like a before/after that I might include?
 
Blut Wump said:
I've been doing power cleans for three weeks. They're hittting the tops of my forearms and the lower part of my biceps (maybe the brachialis) but my wrists have been fine.
Click to expand...

Sounds good then. I'm going to start probably at 95-115? since I've never done them before.

Blut Wump said:
Also I'm doing box squats on Wednesday ultra wide. I'm enjoying the two switches. Monday and Friday I'm doing full ATF. There's no longer any guessing about whether you're going deep enough.
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I think I'll do exactly that except I'm not sure how wide I can go, I tried it once and it seemed to strain my hip a lot. I guess I need to work on flexibility here. And I really need to focus on sitting back. Also box squat is basically just 10-20% lighter than Monday's? or even lighter because of the box?

Blut Wump said:
I noticed that you spread out weeks 8 and 9. How did you find it? Too easy? Still hard? Do you feel like you're loaded again and in need of a deload? I'm still unsure whether to run a 2x per week deload when I get there or do the 3x and do what you've done with weeks 8 and 9.
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Well for wk 6 I did 3x deload and then I got sick which kind of forced me to do 2x per week over the last 3 weeks.

Unfortunately I can't say that I know the physical feeling of being loaded and deloaded, I do know that I missed some lifts in Wks 8-9, even at only 2x week.

Still, I don't plan on taking a week off or anything, just going to start 2nd run through this Monday, so I guess I don't feel like I got loaded again.

Blut Wump said:
Congrats on the weight gain.
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Thanks! I actually went through your journal a few times in preparation for this 1st run through as well as while I was going through it.

Madcow2 said:
Do you have any ideas on your strength progression like a before/after that I might include?
Click to expand...

I'm going to have to use some tables/guesstimate since I never formally established my 3/5RM's before starting, and I changed my squat and dead form from the way I used to lift (short of parallel and conventional, respectively)

Bench:
before 1RM = 260 (est from 225 reps)
after 1RM = 275 and did 260 for 3 reps.

Squat:
before 1RM = est 315 below parallel but not ATF. I used to rep all the time with 315 but these were quite frankly short of parallel :dodgy:
after 1RM = 365 (even though I missed this 3RM yesterday)

Deadlift:
before 3RM = 315 conventional touch and go. And I even used to start it off a rack so even on the 1st rep I'd have that stretch reflex :eek2:
after 3RM = 365 sumo 'dead' (for 2 sets)

So overall I know I got stronger on my bench, and I'm most happy with my dead - I love pulling off the floor now.
 
I think you and Curgeo were discussing the pulling edition of PurePowermag. On page 60 there's an article which covers the power clean. You'll probably find 95-115 lbs. a good starting weight: light enough not to be a problem and heavy enough that you're not just throwing it up. You'll probably increase it fairly quickly. I liked making this sub for the rows: I could feel it mostly in my upper back but I'm sure it helped also with the deadlifting chain. I think they're also great for my GPP as they make me gasp and sweat like a pig.

Box-squats were something I'd been keen on trying for a while and was finally pushed into them after a discussion in this thread from Anthrax about knees with b_fold
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=396662&page=2&pp=20
I just looked back at the thread and you were part of the discussion but there's the link, anyway. :)

I've been in the same boat as you with squats and now that I'm going down fully ATF my squatting weights are way down and so I'm box-squatting more than my Friday or Monday squats but less than I could do for a breaking-parallel squat. Play it by ear. One thing I like about the cleans, ATF squats and box squats is that there's no longer any question about body English in the row or whether I'm going low enough in a squat. The clean is all body assist and the squats I just go down until I stop then come back up. It's just black and white, make or fail. I'm wondering whether the reduced weight on those two exercises is leaving me more in the tank for my deads but they're feeling better than ever this time around.

I still have two more weeks to decide about my next deload. I'm thinking of doing a 2x week 5 and then going back to 3x for 6 and 7 and then just see how I feel by week 8 but probably just stretch out the 3x protocol for 8 and 9. Not sure yet.
 
blut wump said:
One thing I like about the cleans, ATF squats and box squats is that there's no longer any question about body English in the row or whether I'm going low enough in a squat.
Click to expand...

You know one of my missed squat sets I asked my wife to check my depth and as I'm approaching parallel she's saying 'No....No....No...' as I'm lowering the bar.

Talk about having negative thoughts in your head!

Anyway, thanks for the input. Are you keeping the box at the same height from workout to workout? I think you mentioned you feel most comfortable with a box just short of parallel.

I think the 'box' I'll probably use at my gym is just past parallel, which I think makes it pretty hard to use that ultra-wide stance.
 
lol, teach her the word 'almost'.

My 'box' is the crunch table thing which is always just beside the squat rack at my gym. It's pretty close to parallel but just a shade above. On Friday I spotted a seat by the Smith machine which people use for sitting in while doing their overhead presses which is an inch or so lower so I might switch now that I'm getting accustomed to the box squats.

They really hit your glutes and the tops of your hams. I put a post on the 5x5 thread and madcow said that they'd be a big help to deadlifts. It was b_fold who suggested going really wide but that might just have been to help out Anthrax's knees. It's still a very new exercise for me.

You could take a between-week to try out some of these alternative exercises. If they click with you then just call it week1 and carry on.
 
In all honesty the 5x5 is just not setup (the dual factor) for learning a lift and especially the powerclean. Building to records etc.. kind of assumes you know how to perform the lift and you have an idea of your capacity with reasonable technique. The clean and snatch take a fair amount of technique work to get down. I'd really encourage you to find a local coach through www.usaweightlifting.org and get a few sessions. Teaching yourself is an excellent way to ingrain horrible habits that will be very hard to break. Lifting heavy too fast is a great way to get injured. Even a few sessions can make a night and day difference. I'd really rather see someone do basic clean or snatch pulls unless they are going to really put effort into the lift and get it right. There are some vids linked on my TOC that have a host of OL and OL variants videoed.

This isn't like learning to squat or press, and someone who knows what they are doing makes a huge world of difference in getting you going and building decent technique as fast as possible. In one session with a coach you will agree.
 
Blut Wump said:
lol, teach her the word 'almost'.
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Oh she knows that one, just uses it in a different context :p

Blut Wump said:
They really hit your glutes and the tops of your hams. I put a post on the 5x5 thread and madcow said that they'd be a big help to deadlifts. It was b_fold who suggested going really wide but that might just have been to help out Anthrax's knees. It's still a very new exercise for me.
Click to expand...

I actually tried them as part of my warmup way back in Wk 2 or 3 - I can't remember - with a slightly below parallel box and probably maxed at 245 for 2 or 3 reps. I could definitely feel my glutes/hams having to fire after relaxing my hip flexors.

madcow2 said:
I'd really rather see someone do basic clean or snatch pulls unless they are going to really put effort into the lift and get it right.
Click to expand...

Oh that might be better since I kind of wanted to do the power shrugs you mentioned in another thread.

General question: I assume these cleans won't affect my Wed dead and vice versa?
 
I had a concern about using the same muscles for cleans as for deadlifting and whether one would impinge on the other. My experience is limited but, if anything, I'd say the cleans are helping with the deadlifting. I'll have a better idea on Wednesday since my last stab at the 5x5 had me drained after week3 deadlifting and I'll be going another 5Kg up on that weight.

Regarding the cleans, madcow is obviously right and the cleans are too strenuous to be used as an ancillary exercise. I'll doubtless post my logs when I get to the end and hope they won't merely serve as an example of someone's folly.
 
Jim Ouini said:
General question: I assume these cleans won't affect my Wed dead and vice versa?
Click to expand...

It's best to sub out the rows and put them in that M/F slot. They shouldn't cause any issue with the dead unless you are training them too heavy to get good explosion.
 
Blut Wump said:
I had a concern about using the same muscles for cleans as for deadlifting and whether one would impinge on the other. My experience is limited but, if anything, I'd say the cleans are helping with the deadlifting. I'll have a better idea on Wednesday since my last stab at the 5x5 had me drained after week3 deadlifting and I'll be going another 5Kg up on that weight.

Regarding the cleans, madcow is obviously right and the cleans are too strenuous to be used as an ancillary exercise. I'll doubtless post my logs when I get to the end and hope they won't merely serve as an example of someone's folly.
Click to expand...

That'd be great if you could post your log since this is your 2nd run through as well and we're doing a lot of the same exercises.

I think I read you were considering a 4 day split to save energy for deads/heavy Fri squat - is that what you decided on?

Madcow2 said:
It's best to sub out the rows and put them in that M/F slot. They shouldn't cause any issue with the dead unless you are training them too heavy to get good explosion.
Click to expand...

Yeah that was my plan. I read back to the original Starr program and he has Power Clean instead of BB row and High Pull instead of pull-ups.

So I'm thinking to do Clean Pull instead of BB row on M/F, and keep the Wed pull ups.
 
Madcow2 said:
The high pull is in place of the dead. I'm not sure if there's pullups or not. Can't hurt doing them.
Click to expand...

Ulp, you're right.

Hm, so reading through this link again
http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/manrodt4.htm

Deadlifts, or Speed Deadlifts can be substituted with Powercleans if you so desire. Powercleans are pretty popular among football players for working on explosiveness. They are not as specific for the powerlifter, but they can add strength to your traps and shoulders as well as thicken up your back. They can also improve speed-strength.
Click to expand...

Interesting that he'd have deadlifting 2x week and on the same day as heavy squatting...

I don't want to make it too complicated, obviously the program worked very well for me as you had laid out, so the 'tweaks' I'm considering were more just because I was interested in some of these other exercises.
 
Jim Ouini said:
[snip]
I think I read you were considering a 4 day split to save energy for deads/heavy Fri squat - is that what you decided on?
[snip]
Click to expand...
Well, I'm not sure whether I will split this week into four. I don't know why but I'm not feeling that I'm suffering much yet with loading. It could be the subs I've made but I've added quite a bit of volume with ancillaries since each session I've felt that I've had energy left over. I've been trying out the various row-like machines and also doing quite a bit of core work and doing triceps on Mondays. Maybe I've finally gotten a bit fitter. :)

I'll reserve any decisions until after Wednesday's deads but the rack pulls and power shrugs on Friday didn't seem to have taken anything out of me by the weekend. I'm feeling good to go.

EDIT: Next day after week3/day1, I crashed for over eleven hours sleep last night. So much for feeling good to go. :)
 
Last edited:
OK after all this talk I actually made it to the gym :p

Wk 1 Day 1

ATF squats
Warmup to 205 x 5 x 5

My goodness going back to 5 x 5 is like cardio ;) I was seriously breathing hard after my third set.

Anyway getting hams to calves is kind of funny...it's not heavy (at least here at 205), but it's hard. I think I realize that my form probably broke down Wk 8-9.

Something to work on.

Bench
Warmup to 205 x 5

Pretty easy.

Clean Pull Low
Warmup to 225 x 5

Was only going to go to 185 since it was my first time but it was pretty easy so I went up.

I love these, I can pull these fast from the floor and once I got it at mid-thigh I did the jump onto my tippy toes and shrugged my shoulders to my ears as best I could.

Plus these are just FUN to do. The only thing I'm wondering is that I *think* I can eventually get to 315 or so...kind of close to my deadlift on Wed, although I'll pull these sumo style.
 
Boss101 said:
How are you ramping your weights?
Click to expand...

Well I already established my 3/5RM's from the 1st run through. So I'll plug in those numbers into Wks 3/8, and kind of ramp to those as I go. Generally I was adding between 5-20lbs per week, depending on the exercise.

For the clean pull I just guesstimated what my max would be, something lower than my dead and I'll probably just play it by ear.
 
Wk 1 Day 2
BW after workout = 193

Damn I forgot how hard these Wednesday's are in the volume phase. Plus it was pretty warm today so that added to the misery :)

Box squats
Warmup to 185 x 5 x 5

Box is slightly below parallel. I like them even though I was getting tired around 4th set, and 5 reps really seems like a lot on these.

Note #1: what's up with people doing the 'chicken wing' laterial raises right next to the squat rack?

Dead (sumo)
Warmup to 275 x 5 x 5

Last cycle I started at 225, but since I finished at 315 5RM last time I thought I'd start higher. Felt good but this is where the heat started getting to me.

Note #2: is there any reason whatsoever to wear those wrap around sunglasses in the gym while working out? Maybe this guy just had lasiks or something but in combination with the slicked back hair and lifting belt while doing dumbell curls it made me suspicious.

Push Press
Warmup to 95 x 5 x 5

Easy, I could've done strict military these but I wanted to be consistent with my form thorughout the program.

Pullups
10 x 5 x 5

Should've been easy but the last reps on sets 4-5 were hard. Only got to my nose or so.

Note #3: Two guys were doing lat pulldowns with almost the whole stack and one guy would have to help yank the bar down while the other guy was doing his 3" ROM (including body rock) sets. And then at the end it would fling the guy up out of his seat.

Note #4: I need to stop looking around and concentrate on myself ;)
 
#1 They're hoping that some of your efforts will make them stronger through osmosis.
#2 Clearly an FBI agent.
#3 Are you sure they weren't British? We specialize in team gym events.
#4 It's your George Formby period. The girls will come.

I sometimes think that the volume phase was designed just to punish us and Wednesday is the worst of that penance. It helps to think more in terms of wheat and chaff.
 
Not knowing who George Formby is I did the obligatory Google search:

With his combination of gormless charm and cheeky songs George Formby kept the nation cheery through the depression and the war years. His invincible innocence helped him get away with murder: "With My Little Ukulele in My Hand", "Little Stick of Blackpool Rock", "When I'm Cleaning Windows" are just some of the songs that raised the art of the double entendre to new heights.
Click to expand...

ROFL.

Anyway, one young guy did ask me what I was doing, saying it looked 'pretty intense'
 
Wk 1 Day 3
BW after workout = 192

ATF squats
Warmup to 225 x 5

My friend showed up and watched my form. It helped.

Bench
Warmup to 185 x 5 x 5

Pretty easy, didn't rest much inbetween sets either.

Clean Pull Low
Warmup to 205 x 5 x 5

I did the first 3 sets off a reebok stepper...uhm, just because it looked interesting, and since I was pulling for speed thought I'd give it a try. Regardless, it definitely made the last 2 sets easier.

I think I take it back that my clean pull may end up anywhere near close to my dead...I doubt I'll be able to get the explosion.
 
Last edited:
Wk 2 Day 1

Squat
Warmup to 225 x 5 x 5

Still working on my hams to calves form, it's coming along, I think.

Bench
Warmup to 225 x 5

Moderately easy.

Clean Pull Low
Warmup to 245 x 5

Didn't feel that great. I was pretty tired by the time I got around to these and my form broke down a few times.

Already scared of Wk 3-4 ;)
 
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