Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

Content by Madcow2
Last Revised 1/11/2006

UPDATE - I have updated program descriptions, template downloads, and an updated Table of Contents on my Geocities site (i.e. lots more topics and better organization). This will be the final update of this TOC in the thread (and it's an incomplete one because there's just too much) but the one on that site essentially links all the topics below and more, many of which come to this very thread. This is easier on me and the better descriptions with charts and better layout are easier on you.

LINK TO FULLY UPDATED TABLE OF CONTENTS AND PROGRAM DESCRIPTIONS​

Table of Contents for this Thread:

Part I - The Program
Part II - Exercise Descriptions
Part III - Some General Pieces
PART IV - A Few Other Programs
PART V - Sources for Knowledge, Interviews, Articles



PART I: The Program


Novice Lifter Version:
See Geocities Site link above

Intermediate Lifter Version – Single Factor/Linear:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4497774&postcount=15

Advanced Version - Periodized/Dual Factor:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4764723&postcount=381

Dual Factor Theory - Why this Works:
(The further one progresses the more critical it becomes to understand basic training concepts like this. If you aren't familiar with this, it is absolutely essential. This is how top athletes in sport are trained the world over and this includes adding LBM in addition to strength, speed, and power.)
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/PlannedOvertraining.html
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showpost.php?p=48&postcount=3

Weight Selection/Time Between Sets/Exercise Substitution:
(The long and short is Important/Take what you need/Don't fuck with this especially the squats. Adding some arm work once a week is fine. Subbing incline for standing military is fine. Adding core work and doing cardio is fine. Do not sub in a machine variant unless you are injured or over 65.)
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=372686
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=371821
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4646743&postcount=201

Some Results From Members:
(Note, far too much to keep track of at this point. There are basically just the first people who used the 5x5 programs here at Elitefitness. Also there are tons of logs and other info on this site now so just browse around or run a search)
blut wump: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4623386&postcount=125
super_rice: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4631651&postcount=140
Ghettostudmuffin:...Week 5: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4633372&postcount=154
...........................Week 6: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4636680&postcount=166
BionicBC: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4734736&postcount=345
Ceasar989:....http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4643420&postcount=185
...................http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4690062&postcount=289
Jim Quini: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4886638&postcount=523

Why Haven’t Most BBers Heard of This Type of Training if It’s so Commonly Used Around the World for Athletics, Powerlifting, and Olympic Lifting?
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4627437&postcount=133
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4658210&postcount=234

Beyond the 5x5 – Planning Your Training Cycles:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4643459&postcount=186





PART II: Exercise Descriptions

Correct Way to Perform Barbell Rows:
(2 Variations – the one at the bottom of page 1 is best)
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366601
Links to pics: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4697367&postcount=301

The Only Shrug – The Power Shrug:
(Toss out the bullshit standard shrug - enjoy big increases in the mirror and increase your explosive power all at once)
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4712284&postcount=319

The Snatch:
One of the best exercises for developing power - I believe Arioch wrote this originally
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4846039&postcount=428

Some General Exercise Description and Video Links:
Very detailed Squat, Deadlift, and Benchpress descriptions are stickied in the PLing forum these are 'must reads' for every lifter:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=7
Videos:
http://www.uwlax.edu/strengthcenter/videos/video_index.htm
http://www.joeskopec.com/assist.html
http://www.bsu.edu/webapps/strengthlab/Home.htm





PART III: Some General Pieces

Why Speed/Acceleration is Critical in Lifting:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4624616&postcount=62

Why A Bodypart Split/Frequency is Insufficient -
Or - "How Many Times Should I Hit a Muscle Each Week":
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4776914&postcount=386

The Deadlift and Recovery
Increasing the Deadlift Without Deadlifting - Take 2
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4783202&postcount=388

Diet and Training - Caloric Excess
This is the only thing I'm writing on diet - more than enough other sources out there
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4866519&postcount=465






PART IV: A Few Other Programs

Glenn Pendlay on Mark Ripptoe’s Squat Program for New Lifters:
(routinely gets 30-40lbs of bodyweight increase within 6 months)
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4658227&postcount=235

Smolov Squat Cycle:
(Considered the holy grail of squat programs - very demanding)
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4610310&postcount=107

Dual Factor Hypertrophy Training:
Courtesy of Matt Reynolds
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4844603&postcount=423
Word Doc: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/Dual_Factor_Hypertrophy_Training.doc




PART V: Sources for Knowledge, Interviews, Articles, Tools

Interview with Strength Coach Glenn Pendlay:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4633481&postcount=155

Interview with Strength Coach Mark Rippetoe:
http://www.readthecore.com/200507/trenches.htm

Pendlay and Rippetoe on Programing:
http://www.readthecore.com/200510/markr.htm

Renowned Speed Coach Charlie Francis on HIT:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4678430&postcount=285

WSB Louie Simmons – What a Gym Needs:
http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/ls8.htm

Prilepin's Table:
A good illustration of the interplay between volume and intensity
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4776937&postcount=387

1RM Equations and Estimates:
To help estimate a 1RM, 5RM or whatever
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4786862&postcount=393

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I posted something similar WAY back...do a search for OLD SCHOOL

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Madcow is the man

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

wnt2bBeast said:

Madcow is the man

Click to expand...

No shit, i love that guy.
Bionic

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

very interesting, thanks for posting

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

BionicBC said:

No shit, i love that guy.
Bionic

Click to expand...

i didnt think he was gay

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

wnt2bBeast said:

i didnt think he was gay

Click to expand...

Gay=Happy Yes.
Gay=Fag No.

Wn2Beast=Fuck you.
j/k bro.
Bionic

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

^^good shit here^^^

K for the repost?

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

REPOST OF ANIMALMASS' EXPLANATION OF THE 5X5:

Reprint of Animalmass' post from Meso where he covers this program a a few other dual factor regimines. You'll also notice that the 3x3 phase he is employing is a 2x per week protocol. I'll post this variation next.


Source Here: http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=134233013

In my opinion, the best program for a wide range of athletes, from beginners to elite level athletes, women, men, anyone....

The 5X5:

Monday:

Olympic Squats 5x5 (same weight)
Benching 5x5 (flat, close grip or regular)(same weight)
JS Rows 5x5 (same weight)
Accessory (low volume triceps and abs)

Wednesday:

Olympic Squats 5x5 (reduced 15-20% from Monday) or Front Squats 5x5
Standing Military Press 5x5 (same weight)
Deadlifts 5x5 (same weight) (if you pull 2.5x bodyweight do 3x5)
Pull ups 5x5 (use weight if you need it)
Accessory (biceps and abs)

Friday:

Olympic Squats 5x5 (working up each set)
Benching 5x5 (flat or incline)(same weight)
Rows 5x5 (same weight)
Accessory (low volume triceps and abs)


The idea is simple: pick a weight you can do for 5 sets of 5, and if you complete all the sets and reps, then next time bump the weight up 5 or 10 pounds.

Before beginning the program it is important to establish 1 rep maxes for the squat, bench press, military press, and deadlift, and 5 rep maxes for the squat, bench press, rows, military press, and deadlifts.

The first week, it is important to begin very conservatively and prepare to set new 5 rep maxes on about the 4th-6th week, rather than the 1st or 2nd week. It will take some time for your body to grow accustomed to training this way, and in the beginning you’re gonna be sore as hell.

If you get all the sets and reps, then you increase the weight (5-10lbs) for the next week, and if not, you keep the weight the same.

Try and set new 5 rep maxes on weeks 4-6 for beginners , and weeks 3-4 for veterans and then move to a 3x3 for 2x per week.

Run the 3x3 for 2-3 weeks, drop the squatting frequency to 2x per week (or even every 4-5 days if you need the additional recovery), and try setting records on the 4th or 5th workout. (Also, weight increase are the important thing here).

Then cycle down to 1 set of 3 for 2 or 3 workouts, and maybe even go for a max single at the end.

So basically what you get is a 4-6 week prep phase, followed by a 3-5 week peaking phase.

One point – during the initial phase where 5x5 is being used you MUST stick to the required volume and frequency. Back off the weight if you have to, but always get in all 5 sets of 5.
__________________________________________________ _______________
Here's the original post by JS about it...

---5X5---
Monday: Squats, Benching, Rows
Weds: Squats, Military Presses, Deadlifts, Chins
Friday: Squats, Benching, Rows

Courtesy of bill starr bill starr, the greatest strength coach who ever lived, popularized this in the 70's with his great book, The Strongest Shall Survive, which was aimed at strength training for football. I believe he had essentually two different programs which both are 5 sets of 5. The first, which is more suitable for beginners, is to simply do 5 sets of 5 with similar weight jumps between each set so that your last set is your top weight. When you get all 5 on the last set, bump all your weights up 5 or 10lbs. Example for squat... 185 for 5, 225 for 5, 275 for 5, 315 for 5, 365 for 5. If you get 365 for 5, move all weights up. This is especially good for someone who is just learning a particular exercise like the squat, because the amount of practice with light but increasing weights is a good way to practice form.

For more advanced lifters, he advocated a warmup, then 5 sets of 5 with a set weight. For example, the same athlete used in the other example may do 135 for 5, 185 for 5, 225 for 3, 275 for 2, 315 for 1, then 350 for 5 sets of 5. When successfull with all 25 reps at 350lbs, bump the weight up the next workout by 5 or 10lbs.

This is not outdated, and is a good program for gaining strength. Many elite athletes still use it during at least part of the year. I in fact do 5 sets of 5 on squatting for 4 weeks as part of an 8 or 10 week training cycle. Personally, i do it 3 times a week, but most people will probably make better progress doing it 2 times per week, or even doing version 1 once a week, and version 2 once a week.

In any event i described a system in a post a while back that goes something like this:
Monday use the heaviest weight you can for all 5 sets (same weight each set)---- in other words when you get all 5 sets of 5 reps up the weight (most workouts you will get 3 or 4 sets of 5- and maybe your last one will be for 3 or 4 reps)

Wednesday use 10-20% less weight- in other words if you used 200lbs on monday use 160-180lbs on wednesday- actual amount depending on your recovery

Friday work up to a max set of 5-

In other words lets say that your best ever set of 5 is 215lbs and you used 200lbs on monday for 5 sets and 170lbs on wednesday. On friday your workout might be like this 95 for 5 135 for 5 175 for 5 200 for 5 then attempt 220 for your last set of 5.

This tends to work better as a long term program than doing the same thing 3 times a week. On exercises where you only do them once a week like deadlift you can just do the 5 sets of 5 like i described. On monday on exercises that you are only doing twice (rows) you could do both exercises like the monday workout or lighten one of them depending on your recovery ability. Be conservative with the weight when you start- that is important.

Also i have used this program VERY often with athletes and it IS result producing. However many of your gains will show up after you use it for 4-6 weeks and you switch to training a bit less frequently and lower the reps and volume. However this is one program i have had a LOT of success with. In fact i rarely if ever use it with athletes who are at the top of their weight class because it causes too much weight gain unless you severely restrict your food.
__________________________________________________ ______________
Here's how to periodize and peak with the 5x5 program....

"i do squats only. however i also do alot of other pulling motions off the floor, and these also work the legs. as far as squats monday 5 sets of five with a set weight wendsday, 5 sets of five with a weight that is 10-15% less than monday friday, work up with sets of five, going for your best set of five heres an example of how we do this...


lets say a person has a previous best of 5 sets of five weight with 300lbs, and has done one set of five with 325lbs for this person i may start with mondays weight of 285lbs, wendsdays weight of 255lbs, and on friday work up to a set of five with 310lbs, however if this person never trained this way before i would be much more conservative, more on that later then make small jumps each week, maybe week 2 use 295, 260, and 320 for the three workouts, week three use maybe 305, 265, and 330...and so on.

however keep this in mind, if on monday you cannot do all five sets of five keep the weight the same the next week, and on friday if you fail on a weight you choose keep the weight the same the next week

now, heres a few more hints, if you are not use to this sort of training and know you are gonna be sore as hell the first couple weeks, simply start more conservatively with the weight. if you are use to this sort of training, you can be a bit more agrressive from the start.

also as the weeks go by, dont increase wensdays workout as much as the other two. also some people are able to handle a heavier wensday workout than others. i have had athletes who have reacted best if wensdays workout was only 5% less than mondays weight. i have seen others who needed 25% reduction, however the average seems to be 10-15%, maybe if your new to this training start with 25% reduction then next time try 10-15% reduction.

with people new to this program i usually use it for 6-7 weeks, because we start more conservatively and it takes longer to get the benefits. with people who have done it before i generally go with 4 weeks at a time and go with setting records on monday and friday of week 3, week 4 is to try even more weight if week 3 was succesful, if it wasnt, then try record weights again. after this routine is over, we drop the frequency to about two workouts a week or even a bit less , and drop volume usually to 3 sets of 3.

the first week, we use the same weight as on the last monday of the 5 sets of five workout. this helps with recuperation. then, as in before we add weight each workout, this time aiming to break records on the fourth or fifth 3 sets of 3 workout.

sometimes we cycle on down to 1 set of three for two or three workouts, other times we have an offloading week then start with the five sets of five again.

i proably left some things out, i always seem to. however, although there are other programs that i am sure are effective, i have used alot of leg training programs and this one i know works, i have used this routine on probably over 100 athletes with success all around. it is not unusual for an athlete to increase their leg strength 100lbs in the full squat in the first six months i work with them.

now i know of other people who have tried this program on my recomendation in the track and field world, and not have the success i have had. however they always make the same mistakes, either starting on week one with max weights and not taking a week or two or even three to work up to max weights, OR, they start in on the 3 sets of 3 with too heavy a weight... you have to adjust the volume. dont be in too much of a hurry.

be content to set records on week 3, not week 1. well thats about it, but if your patient and do it right, it will be effective."....wow that was a mouthful ok, that is what i was talking about, although in that post i didnt explain a couple of things that i would like to now.

as you see from reading that, were talking about 4-6 weeks basically of a prep phase, and 3-5 weeks of a peaking phase, so its not really an 8 week program all the time. every time i write this program out, its a bit different, thats because its not a set in stone thing, but an example of a training philosophy... and it can and is altered in the details for individuals. however, there is one important point concerning what can be altered and still get the desired effects.

during the initial phase where 5 sets of 5 are used, you must stick to the written workout frequency and volume. no matter what, do the required sets 3 times a week. if you feel like your really dieing, then cut the weight back. but in the initial portion, the volume and frequency shouldnt be messed with. now, when you go to the sets of 3, you need to begin with the weight specified, and go up each workout, and you should be fairly rested each workout.

that means that you MAY be able to squat 2 times a week at this point, however you may need to squat once every 4 or 5 days, depends on the individual. also, 3 sets of 3 is a good volume for the first week of this phase, but often people react better to 2 or even one top set per workout during the second, third, or 4th weeks of this phase. during this phase, its the opposite of the first phase, he weight increases are the important thing.

take enough rest between workouts and cut the workout volume enough to assure that you are recovered enough to raise the weight. hope this clarifies a bit. the 3 day a week program i wrote was an example of a basic 3 day a week program for a relative beginner. i meant it to be done without any other assistance work except maybe abs. of course, an advanced lifter would probably not do that workout exactly as written.

as far as the "peaking" part of the squat program, i usually use this with shot-putters and athletes like that, and dont neccessarily do it with a program like the 3 day a week program, although if you were doing that and wanted to "peak" a particular exercise, it would work.

basically, if you are not going to try to peak strength, you need to be more carefull when doing the 5 sets of 5 three days a weeek, and not get the weights up so heavy that you start to overtrain... a more gradual increase in weighs is called for, and you must use a little common sense and not push so hard you need rest... when trying to peak you just push and keep pushing on the last couple of weeks of the 5 by 5... you push right to the brink ov overtraining basically, then back the volume and frequency off with the sets of 3.

Click to expand...

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

DELOADING VARIATIONS 2X vs. 3X IN THE 3X3 PORTION:

This is the 2x per week variation on the 3x3 deload. In all honesty it's better than mine in several respects.

1) It completely takes away judgement from the trainee and this is key because most people who are using this for the first time have no clue and don't have someone really knowledgable monitoring them.

2) Inadequately deloading totally fucks this workout so if you screw up in your judgement or your ability to set weights in the 3 day I use - you blow it all. For someone who's been through this program or a similar dual factor program a few times and has some good training capacity accrued from years in the gym, it's no big deal to monitor yourself and be decently accurate but someone who isn't used to this type of training and doesn't have a detailed log to allow him to properly judge his tollerances and requirements runs the risk of just blowing himself out of the water.

2x Deload Protocol curtesy of Freddy at Meso:

Source post here: http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=134233577

Switch to 3x3 of three, and drop the Friday workout altogether.

Your workout should look like this:

Monday:
Oly squats: 3x3
Bench: 3x3
Rows: 3x3

Wednesday (or move this workout to Thursday if you'd like, I usually did)
Light Oly Squats (70% of monday): 3x3
Deadlifts: 3x3
Military Press: 3x3
Chins:3x3

If you get all 9 reps, go up 5-10 pounds the following week. Do this for about 3-4 weeks.

Click to expand...

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

This is Johnsmith182's explanation of the 5x5.

He is one of the finest strength coaches in the country and the source thread covers a variety of topics which are extremely worthwhile to read. In fact it's worth taking a week off from the gym if you have to (and it's short enough where you don't have to but the payback is 100 fold).

Source Thread Here: http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=12

TOPIC 1: HIS INFAMOUS 5X5:

---5X5---
Monday: Squats, Benching, Rows
Weds: Squats, Military Presses, Deadlifts, Chins
Friday: Squats, Benching, Rows

Courtesy of bill starr bill starr, the greatest strength coach who ever lived, popularized this in the 70's with his great book, The Strongest Shall Survive, which was aimed at strength training for football. I believe he had essentually two different programs which both are 5 sets of 5. The first, which is more suitable for beginners, is to simply do 5 sets of 5 with similar weight jumps between each set so that your last set is your top weight. When you get all 5 on the last set, bump all your weights up 5 or 10lbs. Example for squat... 185 for 5, 225 for 5, 275 for 5, 315 for 5, 365 for 5. If you get 365 for 5, move all weights up. This is especially good for someone who is just learning a particular exercise like the squat, because the amount of practice with light but increasing weights is a good way to practice form.

For more advanced lifters, he advocated a warmup, then 5 sets of 5 with a set weight. For example, the same athlete used in the other example may do 135 for 5, 185 for 5, 225 for 3, 275 for 2, 315 for 1, then 350 for 5 sets of 5. When successfull with all 25 reps at 350lbs, bump the weight up the next workout by 5 or 10lbs.

This is not outdated, and is a good program for gaining strength. Many elite athletes still use it during at least part of the year. I in fact do 5 sets of 5 on squatting for 4 weeks as part of an 8 or 10 week training cycle. Personally, i do it 3 times a week, but most people will probably make better progress doing it 2 times per week, or even doing version 1 once a week, and version 2 once a week.

In any event i described a system in a post a while back that goes something like this:
Monday use the heaviest weight you can for all 5 sets (same weight each set)---- in other words when you get all 5 sets of 5 reps up the weight (most workouts you will get 3 or 4 sets of 5- and maybe your last one will be for 3 or 4 reps)

Wednesday use 10-20% less weight- in other words if you used 200lbs on monday use 160-180lbs on wednesday- actual amount depending on your recovery

Friday work up to a max set of 5-

In other words lets say that your best ever set of 5 is 215lbs and you used 200lbs on monday for 5 sets and 170lbs on wednesday. On friday your workout might be like this 95 for 5 135 for 5 175 for 5 200 for 5 then attempt 220 for your last set of 5.

This tends to work better as a long term program than doing the same thing 3 times a week. On exercises where you only do them once a week like deadlift you can just do the 5 sets of 5 like i described. On monday on exercises that you are only doing twice (rows) you could do both exercises like the monday workout or lighten one of them depending on your recovery ability. Be conservative with the weight when you start- that is important.

Also i have used this program VERY often with athletes and it IS result producing. However many of your gains will show up after you use it for 4-6 weeks and you switch to training a bit less frequently and lower the reps and volume. However this is one program i have had a LOT of success with. In fact i rarely if ever use it with athletes who are at the top of their weight class because it causes too much weight gain unless you severely restrict your food.

Click to expand...

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n


DUAL FACTOR TRAINING:

This is a good basic explanation of dual factor theory provided by JS182:
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showpost.php?p=48&postcount=3

This is an article on the subject written for Core by Animalmass:
http://www.readthecore.com/200501/reynolds-dual-factor-training.htm

This is one of the more decent explanations I've provided here:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=372686

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

5X5 CLARIFYING LINKS / GOOD INFO SOURCES / EXPLANATION ON PROPER TECHNIQUE FOR BARBAELL ROWS AND POWERSHRUGS

Here are some other good clarifying links for the 5x5 Program and general info:

On weight selection and ramping up poundages to record weeks plus some other good stuff:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=372686

Exercise substitution, dual factor, time between sets - a lot covered:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=371821

Good sources for knowledge and information on training regardless of purpose:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4323293&postcount=3

Correct ways to do barbell rows (2 variations are covered in this thread - one standard at the top and one more dynamic towards the bottom):
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366601

How to perform the power shrug and it's uses in training (this is in a long thread about Penn State's use of HIT in their athletic programs - go to the very bottom post on the linked page and then read several of the clarifying posts on the next page for a full technique description):
http://www.fortifiediron.net/invision/index.php?showtopic=7109&st=100

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Note: I have a more complete and better formatted description along with a template download and a ton of other information in this link: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm. This will be the final update to this post, anything new will go in the Geocities site.​

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INTRODUCTION:

Relatively easy program to understand. It nicely illustrates the importance of making systematic progression to drive gains and increase the core lifts.



HISTORY:

One of the many flavors of Bill Starr's 5x5 workouts. This particular one is designed with the intermediate lifter in mind and is from the Deep Squatter site. Deep Squatter (www.deepsquatter.com) is a great site so make sure you check it out along with all the great info located in the archives. Someone who has experience with the lifts and some decent training history should do quite well. It's important to keep in mind that this program is a snapshot, training changes with time, you don't do it forever, to get a better idea on how training changes over time I'd encourage people to read this interview from Glenn Pendlay and Mark Rippetoe on programming http://www.readthecore.com/200510/markr.htm.



USAGE:

This program is based on weekly linear progress. You take your current 5 rep maxes (5RM) and work up to them systematically by increasing weights in steady increments over 3-4 weeks. You then hit your current 5RM on lifts and continue these incremental increases week to week which pushes you further and further out making new personal records (PRs) every week until you stall on the majority of your lifts. If you miss reps, keep the weight constant the next week and don't move it up until you get all 5x5. When you eventually stall on the majority of lifts, and you will, meaning something like several weeks of no progress in that you can't add reps or weight, you'll have to reset lower back several weeks and begin again. If it's just one lift that has you stuck, reset on that and work up again but don't restart the whole program. When restarting the whole program, a lot of times changing variables is also helpful here. I'm not going to cover that. Training is a blend of art and science, and knowing what parameters to change for a given lifter is more art. This is a cookie-cutter, it's meant to get you big and strong, and more importantly training correctly. The best programs are always tailored to a given trainee so being your own coach, you have to learn and seek out knowledge (generally not in bodybuilding sources as a rule and this will seldom do you wrong).

Rep speed is natural, time between sets is what you need. Don't rapid fire compound lifts but don't be lazy. 2-5 minutes is probably right with 5 minutes being needed after a very taxing effort.

If you've just randomly come to this topic or been provided a link - there is a large amount of information here: Table of Contents



-------------------------------------------------------------
CORE DESCRIPTION:

Before beginning it is useful to know your 1 rep maxes or more ideally your real 5 rep max in each lift (there is a table and calculator in the TOC). If you don't know this - it might be useful to test your lifts first or start light and allow for some flexibility in the weekly planning. The whole key is the weekly progression and keeping workload low enough to not overwhelm someone with fatigue and enable them to get out in front and set records for as many weeks as possible. Said a different way, the stimulus is not getting under the bar once with heavy weight but getting under it frequently and systematically increasing week to week starting within your limits and slowly expanding.


Exercise Sets x Reps
Details

Monday
Squat 5x5
Ramping weight to top set of 5 (which should equal the previous Friday's heavy triple)
Bench 5x5
Ramping weight to top set of 5 (which should equal the previous Friday's heavy triple)
Barbell Row 5x5
Ramping weight to top set of 5 (which should equal the previous Friday's heavy triple)
Assistance: 2 sets of weighted hypers and 4 sets of weighted sit-ups

Wednesday
Squat 4x5
First 3 sets are the same as Monday, the 4th set is repeating the 3rd set again
Incline or Military 4x5
Ramping weight to top set of 5
Deadlift 4x5
Ramping weight to top set of 5
Assistance: 3 sets of sit-ups

Friday
Squat 4x5, 1x3, 1x8
First 4 sets are the same as Monday's, the triple is 2.5% above your Monday top set of 5, use the weight from the 3rd set for a final set of 8
Bench 4x5, 1x3, 1x8
First 4 sets are the same as Monday's, the triple is 2.5% above your Monday top set of 5, use the weight from the 3rd set for a final set of 8
Barbell Row 4x5, 1x3, 1x8
First 4 sets are the same as Monday's, the triple is 2.5% above your Monday top set of 5, use the weight from the 3rd set for a final set of 8
Assistance: 3 sets of weighted dips (5-8 reps), 3 sets of barbell curls and 3 sets of triceps extensions (8 reps)



The Progression:

So it's pretty obvious what's going on in this example is weekly increases of 2.5% of your top set of 5 on Monday. So you do 100lbs for 5 on your top set on Monday. Then on Friday you do a triple with 2.5% more, or 102.5. The next Monday you come back and do 102.5 for your heavy set of 5, that Friday the triple is 105 and so on. For the non-squat Wednesday lifts you just increase by the percentage week to week.

Of course you start with a good margin to give yourself a run so you have to back into the initial weeks' weights. That means using some math. Put your current 5 rep maxes at week 4, figure out what 2.5% of the number is and go back and put that for week 3, do that back until you get to week 1. The Friday triple is always the next week's Monday set of 5. Pretty easy.*



Ramping Weights:

This is basically increasing your weight set to set like warming up. If your top set of 5 is 315, you might go 135, 185, 225, 275, and then 315 all for 5 reps. There are several reasons for this, you are warming up, getting a lot of practice and really groove the coordination of the lifts, and contributing to workload without raising it so high that fatigue overcomes you and you overtrain. If you do 315 for all 5 sets, workload is a lot higher and doing that a couple of times a week ensures that you won't last long on this program.

Typically jumps can be somewhere between 10-15% per set based on your top set (or 12.5% and round up or down). An easy way to figure this is to find out what 10% and 15% are for your top set and then track backwards into the other sets using the variance to round or help it make sense.

Example:

Your top set is 100lbs
10% is 10lbs and 15% is 15lbs
Your 5th set is 100x5, 4th is 90x5, 3rd is 80x5, 2nd is 70x5, and 1st is 60x5
These are the minimum jumps of 10%, the math doesn't always look this neat but using 12.5% isn't as intuitively easy to see for explaining this.

Make sure this makes sense and you aren't so strong as to make the jumps ridiculous at 10-15%. But keep in mind, going 200, 205, 210, 215, and 220 is a lot closer to 220 for 5x5 and that's too much on this kind of frequency, it will fatigue you a lot faster (i.e. prevent you from progressing) and hurt your ability to get as much as possible with your top set.

*Note: for the math inclined you probably realized that when moving up in weight you are taking 2.5% of the current weight but when I have you set up the initial weeks moving backward you are taking 2.5% off the forward week which is a slightly larger number than moving in the other direction. So if you want to really be exact, you can work it out the other way but the math is harder.



-------------------------------------------------------------
OTHER PERTINENT INFORMATION

The Lifts:
Squats - these should be full range Olympic style squats. Use the full range of your body - that means as low as you can go which for almost everyone is past parallel. If the top of your thighs aren't at least parallel it's for shit. If you think this is bad for your knees going low, you and whoever told you that are relying on an old wives tale. Anyone who knows the human body will tell you that below parallel is MUCH safer on the knees whereas parallel and above put all the sheer right on them and doesn’t allow proper transfer of the load to the rest of your body (this is how your body was designed). Read the Squat article from Arioch linked in the TOC for a complete description and references on the mechanics of the squat and depth.
Deads - each rep is deweighted fully on the floor. No touch and go. This is called the 'dead'lift because the weight is 'dead' on the ground. You can touch and go warm ups but that's it.
Military - standing overhead presses. Supporting weight overhead is a fundamental exercise and stimulates the whole body. Push presses are a fine substitute.
Rows - 90 degrees and done dynamically (Accelerate the weight into your body - do not jerk it but constantly increase the pace like an oar through water). There is a TOC topic on rows, a good read that also illustrates a version done from the floor.
Common Sense - you should know how to do the lifts before starting a program like this. Start light and learn. Don't include brand new compound lifts that have you training near your limit without some time in. This is how you get hurt. Compound lifts load the entire body and are very effective. If you have a weak link, they will bring it up - of course if you haven't trained the lift long enough for this to happen your weak link may get you hurt. Use your brain.
The rest is self explanatory.



Time Between Sets:

Don't over think this. Use a natural rep speed, take what you need between sets. Don't be lazy but don't rush. You can't be doing rapid fire sets of big compound lifts. Maybe on the lightest warm-ups you take a minute but most sets will be 2-5 minute range with 2 being between fairly easy sets and 5 being after a heavy set in preparation for another very serious major effort that drains you. I can see exceeding the 5 minute limit by a tad when really pushing near failure in the PR weeks when you are uncertain of getting your reps on your last set. Just use your brain and don't micromanage.



Diet:

Depends on whether you are trying to gain muscle or what. I will say that for gaining muscle, caloric excess must be present. Read the caloric excess topic in the table of contents. More people, particularly bodybuilders, go wrong here. If caloric excess is present and training stinks, you will get fatter. The few guys who have come back with no weight gain got very strong and gained no net weight - guess what - they were already fairly lean (i.e. no excess in their diet otherwise they'd have been fatter) and they didn't gain fat or muscle (no caloric excess during training). There's nothing any program can do if you won't eat. For the purposes of gaining muscle or getting big and strong it's better to eat McDonalds and KFC all day long than not eat enough Zen clean ultra pure food which might be healthier but if not enough there's simply nothing to use to grow. So caloric excess is a requirement, you don't need to eat like a slob but it will work infinitely better than not eating enough healthy food for this purpose. Lots of people have gotten big and strong on diets that were bad, if you choose to eat squeaky clean, kudos to you but it is not critical to putting on muscle (it might be critical to a long high quality life though).



Incorporating the Olympic Lifts:

The above is basically setup for someone who doesn't know the OLs. Starr's original workout included Power Cleans and High Pulls. Instead of Bent Rows substitute Power Cleans. Rather than Deads substitute High Pulls. That’s a quick and dirty way of handling this without much disruption.



Substituting Exercises:

Don't fuck with this. Every bodybuilder seems to have Attention Deficit Disorder and an overwhelming desire to customize everything. The bottom line is that these are all the most effective exercises and just about anything one does will result in less gains. As a rule those people who want to change it don't know enough to make proper alterations - those who do know enough, don't have much to change. The guy who is responsible for this program is of the best on the planet at bulking lifters and making people stronger. It's kind of like Sesame Street's Elmo offering neurosurgery advice at NYU. Anyway, it's absolutely essential not to screw with the squats, they are the foundation of this program. If you want to sub inclines or push presses for military that's okay. Do not sub machines - don't even think about it, hit yourself with a plate if you must. For arms choose a single biceps and triceps exercise and perform them at the end once per week for 3 sets of whatever - your arms will take a beating from all the pulling and pressing anyway. If you want to chin on Wednesday or do a few sets of pulldowns/ups that's fine (avoid the machines if you can use bodyweight). Core work is always fine. Cardio is fine - interval training is the best for this I'll just throw out. If this is just too much mental strain, take solace in the fact that it's just a few weeks, you'll gain a ton of muscle and strength and then you can spend the next 4 weeks adding the minute detail to refine the gained mass (like most care anyway - I have yet to meet a guy on this board who will trade 20lbs of muscle for a bit of added detail somewhere). In a nutshell, put your trust in some of the better coaches on the planet and enjoy the results.



New or Beginner Lifters:

This is not a beginner program. You will make faster progress with less workload on a true beginner program. I really recommend Rippetoe's Starting Strength for beginners or novices. It's so critical to learn the lifts correctly and get started on a good program (i.e. not what one typically finds on bodybuilding sites). Rippetoe is the man at coaching beginners and putting muscle on them with 30-40lbs in 4-6 months being quite normal. The book will handle teaching you all the lifts. It's written for coaches and no, given what I see in commercial gyms, the internet and Joe Schmoe at your local gym are not capable of instructing you properly - they will screw you up and make you look like a moron or possibly get you hurt. On top of that the book covers everything to get you set up on a program that is time proven as one of if not the best beginner programs available.



Advanced Lifters:

After a while, linear progress doesn't work so well. You want to do this for as long as you can. And I mean, resetting and running at your records, changing some exercises, rep ranges, whatever, just keep trying to get some linear progress as you want to milk this kind of progression for all it's worth. After a while it will become pretty obvious this doesn't work for you any more. Welcome to periodization.

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

BIONICBC - thank you. Now I have a single link to refer people to and store this stuff. That was so needed as I've been retyping all kinds of stuff. I'll add more as time goes on but at least it's all here and available.

And of course - as usual I can't give Karma because I haven't been spreading it around enough.

good stuff here!

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

^^^everyone should read this so heres another big BUMP^^^^^^

Hi, frequent reader, infrequent poster here....

Could anyone point me to any resources (ie old threads, articles, etc?) that specifically reference this version of the 5x5 routine in conjunction with a CUTTING cycle? I've read a bunch of threads on these boards and a few others -- written or referenced by madcow mainly -- that deal with this training protocol inside and out.... but primarily with respect to how it builds strength and lean mass.

I'm currently overweight, working on a long slow cut down to a more manageable size, before trying to pack on anything new. I'm also much less interested in muscle size (for now) so much as mainintaining or even gaining strength. From what I've read of this routine, it is superb for strength gains in a caloric surplus -- is it also surperb at strength/muscular maintenance in a caloric deficit?

I was going to originally post this in another thread, and I certainly will if it is more appropriate that way, but this thread seemed to be bringing together a lot of topics and resources on this routine, and I thought it might be good to tack on this aspect as well.... since I can virtually guarantee I'm not the only one with questions along these lines. Thanks in advance to all!

-- KhorneDeth

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

KhorneDeth said:

Hi, frequent reader, infrequent poster here....

Could anyone point me to any resources (ie old threads, articles, etc?) that specifically reference this version of the 5x5 routine in conjunction with a CUTTING cycle? I've read a bunch of threads on these boards and a few others -- written or referenced by madcow mainly -- that deal with this training protocol inside and out.... but primarily with respect to how it builds strength and lean mass.

I'm currently overweight, working on a long slow cut down to a more manageable size, before trying to pack on anything new. I'm also much less interested in muscle size (for now) so much as mainintaining or even gaining strength. From what I've read of this routine, it is superb for strength gains in a caloric surplus -- is it also surperb at strength/muscular maintenance in a caloric deficit?

I was going to originally post this in another thread, and I certainly will if it is more appropriate that way, but this thread seemed to be bringing together a lot of topics and resources on this routine, and I thought it might be good to tack on this aspect as well.... since I can virtually guarantee I'm not the only one with questions along these lines. Thanks in advance to all!

-- KhorneDeth

Click to expand...

At one point in these arcticles it says how athletes in certain weight classes must SEVERLY restrict diets to maintain WEIGHT, so id say YES, maintaining weight on a routine like this should be the least of your worries. Bump to Madcow for more insight.
Bionic

WONDERFUL post, bro! Madcow, you are the MAN!!!

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

KhorneDeth said:

From what I've read of this routine, it is superb for strength gains in a caloric surplus -- is it also surperb at strength/muscular maintenance in a caloric deficit?

Click to expand...

Under any and all normal circumstances you should be more than fine. The original tweaker of the 5x5, JS182 at Meso, avoids this workout for athletes close to a weightclass restriction. I used exactly this workout about a year and a half ago (only exception being incline instead of military) with a good margin for acceptable weight gain and ended up having to slash my diet in a major fashion to keep from putting on too much weight (I started curtailing at week 3 and had to take more drastic measures at week 6 because it just wouldn't stop). This program excels at building strength and lean body mass. pure and simple, plus it fits well into schedules very well.

Of course the caveate to any and all normal includes someone on a mild to severe starvation diet and/or someone immediately post cycle of anabolics. Neither of these are a fair environment to test any workout.

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Madcow2 said:

Under any and all normal circumstances you should be more than fine........Of course the caveate to any and all normal includes someone on a mild to severe starvation diet.

Click to expand...

I'm currently running a keto diet, eating 10.5x bodyweight in cals, 1g protein per lb LBM. I don't feel like I'm severely undereating. In your opinion could it be possible to see any strength increases with this training protocol?

Maybe to take the point further, would you recommend this training to someone on a cutting diet or no?

Thanks for the input so far -- everything I've seen here seems real solid.

-- KhorneDeth

Something else to consider is your training history. A novice lifter would be better served by the alternative regimine listed on the previous page, especially one who is eating a lean diet. If you have some serious lifting time under your belt you should be fine. Start your weights conservatively., maybe consider the 2 day 3x3 phase depending upon how you feel after the week 5 deloading.

The real problem is that it's hard to make blanket statements or guarantees, what's fine for 90% might be an issue for 10%. What is tolerable for world level lifter would bury me and what's tolerable for me might bury a lot of others - and there is some major variation between lifters at every level including the very top. I think you should be fine and it will give you everything you want and more but there are a lot of variables mixed in the soup so take that for what it's worth. Anyone who tells you otherwise with such limited info isn't being straight with you or isn't someone who should be giving advice.

Maybe I missed it, but one of the routines (REPOST OF ANIMALMASS' EXPLANATION OF THE 5X5 lists "JS Rows"... what are those exactly? Barbell rows?

This program is so good for gaining size...I FINALLY GOT A STRETCH MARK!!!


...I guess thats not a good thing, but im growing. Props to Madcow2 for the recommendation. This calls for K!

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Carl Carlson said:

Maybe I missed it, but one of the routines (REPOST OF ANIMALMASS' EXPLANATION OF THE 5X5 lists "JS Rows"... what are those exactly? Barbell rows?

Click to expand...

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4391839&postcount=19

Description in Link - but yes a variation of Barbell rows. You can do this version or a more standard version like the one I detail in a post on the previous page (http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366601). Basically as close as you can comfortably get to 90 degrees, do not rise up when you row, accelerate the row into you (more simply - avoid the glorified upright humping that serves as many BBers' row). The JS version is without doubt better but some people aren't willing to experiment with rowing from the floor and utilizing the erectors.

Madcow, thank you posting all the info on 5 x 5 training! I know it will help MANY guys on the board. I know it has definitely changed the way I view my training. I wanted to ask you a question and kind of put you on the spot. Let's say my goal was size & strength while making sure each bodypart was worked thoroughly. If you had to choose one version, which one would it be? I have 12 years of training experience off and on, but never really focused on strength. Mostly, typical bodybuilding type workouts with reps between 8-20 depending on which bodypart was worked.

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

The array of exercises in the workout leaves virtually nothing untouched (if you insist on doing direct arm work throw in a session a week 3 sets 8-10 of 1 exercise for bi/tris each but these get hammered in pressing and pulling so this is just cosmetic and to appease the BBers). As far as working each bodypart thoroughly, it's pretty much covered but in reality, who cares? As long as you are growing and getting stronger uniformly over your entire body if one body part never got worked yet somehow managed to get bigger and stronger (hypothetical) who would complain.

Increasing poundages in the core lifts is essential to long-term hypertrophy. A muscle's whole purpose is to generate force and perform work (Force = Mass X Acceleration, Work = Force X Distance). The mass part of the equation simply must move as you can't keep adding reps and sets to generate hypertrophy over anything but a short period as the acceptable range for the stimulus isn't very wide (this is why 20 or greater rep sets are non-existant - this is the distance part of the work equation - ever see a super muscular marathon runner). Of course the acceleration part of the equation plays a major part as evidenced by the multiplication sign so it's something to also actively incorporate. Granted I'm not talking about a huge emphasis on singles and conditioning the CNS for maximum lifts (I'll bite it now before someone takes it to the extreme) but rep ranges of 8-3 reps are excellent for building muscle. Hell, I lose track much after 6 anyway.

Since progress in the core compound lifts will drive the overwhelming majority of your gains there is little sense in diluting your limited recovery ability until a specific need arrises. That need can then be addressed with targeted assistance work and/or variations of the lifts.

Pretty much a no brainer. Providing one can set one's weights reasonably this thing is autopilot. It's great for athletics (substitute the powerclean and/or highpulls in there to cover the big 3) and strength while providing a level of hypertrophy that is very hard to equal. Another bonus is that it is a very clear example of loading/unloading protocol and gives the trainee experience that will enable him understand his own tolerances to replicate the basic program design for later more specific use. You end up having to work really hard to screw this program up.

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Madcow2 said:

REPOST OF ANIMALMASS' EXPLANATION OF THE 5X5:

Reprint of Animalmass' post from Meso where he covers this program a a few other dual factor regimines. You'll also notice that the 3x3 phase he is employing is a 2x per week protocol. I'll post this variation next.


Source Here: http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=134233013

Click to expand...

I think I'll try Animalmasss version of the 5 x 5. It looks like it has everything covered. heavy Squats, rows, deads, bench, and even some arm work.

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

They are all the same program just different ways of saying it. The only actual variation was the 3 day 3x3 deload in the first post which I address further down as the volume is higher and requires some judgement for an inexperienced trainee (combining the terms judgement and inexperienced can make this an issue). Of course there's the beginners program too but the rest are identical.

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Whats up man? I tried to write you the other day but your PM box was full. Anyway, just wanted to update you as I have completed the first 4 weeks of the program. Heres how my final day of the 4 weeks went (Friday workout)

Squats
Bar x 5, warmup
135 x 5
225 x 5
275 x 5
300 x 5
315 x 5

Bench
Bar x 5, warmup
135 x 5, warmup
210 x 5, 5 sets

Rows
135 x 5, warmup
215 x 5, 5 sets

What do you think? Im definately making progress... Im a little dissapointed in my bench,m its always been my weak point... But I am improving. The bent-over rows Im loving-Keeping back parallell, and doing it as an "explosive" movement from the floor each time... I feel this is one of my stronger lifts... Any tips or advice is appreciated as always...
Bionic

Just emptied the PM box.

Overall it looks good. I'm guessing you made all your weights for the record weeks. Next time through you'd want to hit these weights or ideally slightly above depending on how easy they were on week 3 and stretch it out for week 4. You also seem to make a significant jump in the bench and rows. You might find it useful to do a double/triple about halfway between your listed warmups and working weights as this is a big % jump at your working weight.

In regards to your bench - everyone has a lift they struggle with and the BP is a lift that is heavily determined by genetics so you handle the weight that is hard for you not for some guy who could press 315 his first time in the gym. There was a thread in the past day or so on improving your bench. There are some very good uncommon assistance exercises listed there - of course it's important to understand exactly where your weak point is and what will get you the most improvement. You could also take a look at your technique and see if there's some margin for improvement there. You generally won't see the benefits to a technique change until after you've implemented it for a while and it may feel almost detrimental at first compared to what you are used to but it's something to consider.

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

BionicBC said:

Whats up man? I tried to write you the other day but your PM box was full. Anyway, just wanted to update you as I have completed the first 4 weeks of the program. Heres how my final day of the 4 weeks went (Friday workout)

Squats
Bar x 5, warmup
135 x 5
225 x 5
275 x 5
300 x 5
315 x 5

Bench
Bar x 5, warmup
135 x 5, warmup
210 x 5, 5 sets

Rows
135 x 5, warmup
215 x 5, 5 sets

What do you think? Im definately making progress... Im a little dissapointed in my bench,m its always been my weak point... But I am improving. The bent-over rows Im loving-Keeping back parallell, and doing it as an "explosive" movement from the floor each time... I feel this is one of my stronger lifts... Any tips or advice is appreciated as always...
Bionic

Click to expand...

Dumb question: Why do you work up the weight for squats while bench and rows have 5 working sets at the same weight?

That's just the friday workout.

Check through this thread and you should see the full routine in detail.

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Carl Carlson said:

Dumb question: Why do you work up the weight for squats while bench and rows have 5 working sets at the same weight?

Click to expand...

Because this is the "day 3" workout, on your "day 1" workout it switches-YOu have 5 working sets of bench and rows at the same weight, and you work up to 1 set of max weight at squats, for a TOTAL of 5 sets (in all exercises) Your Day 2 workout is Squats (at 20% less weight than day 1-this lift is dropped after first 4 weeks) Deadlifts, Military Press, and Pullups.
Bionic

Yup, I'm an idiot - I had been through this thread a bunch of times before but didn't even realize that... Sorry.

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Carl Carlson said:

Yup, I'm an idiot - I had been through this thread a bunch of times before but didn't even realize that... Sorry.

Click to expand...

S'all good.
Bionic

it dosn't seem simple to me!
what % of 1RM do you usually use for 5x5's?
80-85?

It depends on the person.

My final question madcow2.

After you finish the 4 week intensity phase of this cycle, can you immediately start the next cycle at 5x5 or do you need to take a deloading week before starting the 5x5 again?

Kane Fan said:

it dosn't seem simple to me!
what % of 1RM do you usually use for 5x5's?
80-85?

Click to expand...

I had to play with the weight to find out what worked for me-The imposrtant thing he stressed to me is to MAKE SURE you choose a weight where you can complete all 5 sets for 5 reps, but not TOO easy-you need to be pushing yourself. Finding that balance takes a minute. Im in week 5 now (deloading phase), ill tell you one thing, the first 4 weeks were TOUGH.
Bionic

Kane Fan said:

it dosn't seem simple to me!
what % of 1RM do you usually use for 5x5's?
80-85?

Click to expand...

I had to play with the weight to find out what worked for me-The imposrtant thing he stressed to me is to MAKE SURE you choose a weight where you can complete all 5 sets for 5 reps, but not TOO easy-you need to be pushing yourself. Finding that balance takes a minute. Im in week 5 now (deloading phase), ill tell you one thing, the first 4 weeks were TOUGH.
Bionic

Can you incorporate this into a 5 day split?

What are the goals from this routine? Seems like mainly strength and power, with little emphasis on the bb physique, no?

I've found the best method is wk 1 sets of 12-10
wk 2 8-10
wk 3 6-8
repeat

that way your body doesnt adapt to lifting to its max every week....this is where growth occurs.........

JKurz1 said:

Can you incorporate this into a 5 day split?

What are the goals from this routine? Seems like mainly strength and power, with little emphasis on the bb physique, no?

I've found the best method is wk 1 sets of 12-10
wk 2 8-10
wk 3 6-8
repeat

that way your body doesnt adapt to lifting to its max every week....this is where growth occurs.........

Click to expand...

Yea, I know the "common" belief for growth is to stay in the 8-12 rep range, and less than that is more for strenght. Although this program is, i believe, a strenght training program in essence, from what MadCow tells me its also very good at adding Lean Body Mass too... Even if it adds more strenght than mass, that means that AFTER these 10 weeks, i should be lifting weights in the 8-12 rep range with LARGER weights, which will in result add MORE mass, no?
Bionic

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

GhettoStudMuffin said:

My final question madcow2.

After you finish the 4 week intensity phase of this cycle, can you immediately start the next cycle at 5x5 or do you need to take a deloading week before starting the 5x5 again?

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You should do the deloading week and then the 3x3 phase as listed - afterwhich you can then immediately commence with a new 5x5 volume phase.

BionicBC said:

I had to play with the weight to find out what worked for me-The imposrtant thing he stressed to me is to MAKE SURE you choose a weight where you can complete all 5 sets for 5 reps, but not TOO easy-you need to be pushing yourself. Finding that balance takes a minute. Im in week 5 now (deloading phase), ill tell you one thing, the first 4 weeks were TOUGH.
Bionic

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Just make sure the weights are progressing upward. Week 1 and 2 should scale up to week 3 which ideally should be record lifts and week 4 should be another increment above that. This is hard to peg correctly the first time but after you've established your maxes it's fairly easy to narrow down. Novices starting very light might need 6 weeks total with 4 weeks of scaling. The most common mistake is that people start too heavy and can't ramp the weights adequately over the period.

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

JKurz1 said:

Can you incorporate this into a 5 day split?

What are the goals from this routine? Seems like mainly strength and power, with little emphasis on the bb physique, no?

I've found the best method is wk 1 sets of 12-10
wk 2 8-10
wk 3 6-8
repeat

that way your body doesnt adapt to lifting to its max every week....this is where growth occurs.........

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This program causes an absolute ton of hypertrophy - so much so that it is avoided by athletes at the top of weight classes because it forces severe dietary restriction. I've never really seen anything grow people better or more consistently.

BBing is no different than anything else. Your physique will almost totally be driven by progress in the compound lifts. If you can't build an impressive physique out of deads, squats, rows, presses, and chins then it's just not going to happen anyway. Most BBers are more concerned with adding muscle than working on detail so once one gets big enough one can periodically put some work into rebalancing physique imperfections. Most guys seem to be more in a hurry to get big and add another 20lbs of LBM rather than aesthetically rebalance something.

This program results in a very solid strength and power foundation for athletics as well as a massive amount of hypertrophy which makes it fairly ideal for adding LBM to an athlete or a BBer. For athletics it's probably more advantageous to substitute dynamic pulling into the regimine as this version is more suited to BBers who generally are unfamiliar with the olympic lifts and their variations.

I've also noticed the overwhelming desire for BBer to fuck with this program. Its variations have been in use for over 30 years. This program has been used with huge success by a large number and very broad range of athletes over this time and is still currently in heavy use. Bill Starr was one of the best strength and conditioning coaches who every lived (this job includes bulking and adding LBM to athletes in a time constrained environment). This particular variation was drawn up by someone who is currently one of the best strength coaches on the planet. Typically a BBer attempting to screw with this program is the equivalent of Sesame Street's Elmo offering neurosurgery advice at NYU. You simply aren't going to eek any more mass out of this program and the vast majority of changes people wish to make will compromise it to a large degree. Those who have been through it end up not wanting to change much of anything once they see how effective it is. Those who know enough to properly alter the protocols and adjust the loading/deloading parameters are generally ones who don't find much to change.

Hopefully my last question....

Let's say Monday I'm using 225 for my Squats 5x5.

Do I use 225 on Friday for my Squats 1x5?

Carl Carlson said:

Hopefully my last question....

Let's say Monday I'm using 225 for my Squats 5x5.

Do I use 225 on Friday for my Squats 1x5?

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No, youd use a higher weight for your MAIN set, but make sure you still get your 5 sets in. Maybe something like this:
135 x 5
175 x 5
205 x 5
225 x 5
265 x 5
Im not saying use these weights, but you get the idea-this is more or less how you do it.
Bionic

Yeah - your 5x5 and 1x5 (and 3x3 / 1x3) are separate. Your goal is to scale each up to the record weeks and obviously what you can handle for 5x5 is a bit less than what one can do for 1x5. The only linked portion is the Wednesday 5x5 squats present in the volume phase which are based on your Monday weight just a given % less (generally around 15-20%).

OK, I thought that might be the case but I just wanted to make sure. I'm psyched to try this out so hopefully I'll be over my cold by next week. I'm dying to get back in the gym.

I'd love to try this sometime

Im starting to bulk tommorow and im going to start this Will this help me with lean muscle mass and strength when i bulk?

Womanizer said:

Im starting to bulk tommorow and im going to start this Will this help me with lean muscle mass and strength when i bulk?

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Post 48 above as well as several others in this thread answer this very explicitly but in short yes, it's very good for this.

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4558367&postcount=48

Okay ty, and for rows are these barbell rows? I have a link for them right here:

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/excercise/bentoverbarebellrows.htm

Womanizer said:

Okay ty, and for rows are these barbell rows? I have a link for them right here:

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/excercise/bentoverbarebellrows.htm

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http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366601

This is a good link on properly performing rows. There are two variations, the one I address at the top and a supperior one further down. Both of these are done dynamically and are supperior to the fairly sad execuse of this exercise that most people see in the gym but the 2nd description at the bottom of page 1 is supperior and is useful to have in the arsenal.

what if I want to do these at home but dont' have a squat rack?

Barbell rows are done from the floor anyway. No need to rack the weight on a squat rack and then transfer it.

If you are talking about squatting in general...well the squatting is pretty much the core of this program the way it's arranged. It plays a huge part in the loading and deloading protocols and is the major contributor to gains. If you can't squat you are pretty screwed. Take a look for a cheap set of squat stands or something. It's absolutely essential for a home gym.

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Just finished Week 5, the "deloading" phase. Seemed easy since sets and reps were dropped, but weight stayed the same. This week i begin Week 6-Time to increase those weights! So far Ive gained about 6 lbs, but I bagan a cycle about the same time I started this too, so between the cycle AND this program Im hoping for some wicked improvements!
Bionic

I'm in week 8 and I made today's PRs. If I make next week's bench I'll be tripling a weight just 2.5Kg lower than my 1RM of two months ago. If I'm feeling good I might even go for the extra. Either that or stay as scheduled and then rest and try for a new 1RM.

Madcow2 said:

Barbell rows are done from the floor anyway. No need to rack the weight on a squat rack and then transfer it.

If you are talking about squatting in general...well the squatting is pretty much the core of this program the way it's arranged. It plays a huge part in the loading and deloading protocols and is the major contributor to gains. If you can't squat you are pretty screwed. Take a look for a cheap set of squat stands or something. It's absolutely essential for a home gym.

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I know
believe me I want to get one
do you think I could substitue Deadlifts for Squats and SLDL for BLDL?

im goin to try this in 6 weeks after i end my current routine...

i was wondering if adding a tricep exercise on monday such as skulls or dips would deter the from the routine. i think id help with the pressing.

also some calves and grip work ok right, not too concerned with bicep work with this routine

1 ?

for the actual sets of 5x5 do u use the same weight? so bench

warm up 135x5, 185x5, 225x5, 275x5
work set 315 5x5 ?

TheOak84 said:

1 ?

for the actual sets of 5x5 do u use the same weight? so bench

warm up 135x5, 185x5, 225x5, 275x5
work set 315 5x5 ?

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Warm up how you wish but, yes, for the 5x5 exercises it's five sets of five reps at the same weight. On the 1x5 days the above would be a fine example doing just one set of the 315x5 along with the outlined sets of 5 for warmups.

BTW nice numbers for military press.

question starting this routine but id rather get to the gym 4-5 times a week rather than 3 is there anything i can change around? if not what routine should i do that could get me similar results but going 4-5 times a week mayb even 6?

mayhems said:

question starting this routine but id rather get to the gym 4-5 times a week rather than 3 is there anything i can change around? if not what routine should i do that could get me similar results but going 4-5 times a week mayb even 6?

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Do abs and cardio on the other days. Believe me, i thought the same thing, but IF you do it right, 3 days a week will be MORE than enough, especially the 1st 4 weeks.
Bionic

i also heard that too much cardio can affect the muscle... in other words prevent bulk? and it which should i do the one u posted or meso or w/e that says low volume tris/abs and then wed bis/abs

also what happens after the 8-10 period? start over? or switch up routines?

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

TheOak84 said:

im goin to try this in 6 weeks after i end my current routine...

i was wondering if adding a tricep exercise on monday such as skulls or dips would deter the from the routine. i think id help with the pressing.

also some calves and grip work ok right, not too concerned with bicep work with this routine

Click to expand...

why not change your grip on one of the bench workouts..


WHY ISNT THIS A STICKY YET??????

TheOak84 said:

im goin to try this in 6 weeks after i end my current routine...

i was wondering if adding a tricep exercise on monday such as skulls or dips would deter the from the routine. i think id help with the pressing.

also some calves and grip work ok right, not too concerned with bicep work with this routine

Click to expand...

Sure. The arms take a good beating from all the pressing and rowing so just pick a single tricept and bicept exercise and hit them once a week for 3 sets of 8-10 or whatever.

Kane Fan said:

I know
believe me I want to get one
do you think I could substitue Deadlifts for Squats and SLDL for BLDL?

Click to expand...

I don't know what to tell you except that not being able to squat seriously compromises the effectiveness of any program. If I were you I'd learn how to power clean and do snatch/clean grip high pulls very quickly.

Madcow2 said:

I don't know what to tell you except that not being able to squat seriously compromises the effectiveness of any program. If I were you I'd learn how to power clean and do snatch/clean grip high pulls very quickly.

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I've been wanting to get into powercleans
didn't have a big interest in highpulls tho
do you thnk I could trade regular squats for zercher squats?
zerchers for me are well behind my regular squats tho...
grrr!

It's like asking how one can use this workout using only a Bowflex. Squattiing is very fundemental to development. The nature of this program assumes one has access to squat stands, a bench, a barbell and some weight. This isn't exactly demanding in the way of exotic equipment. I can empathize with your predicament but you are effectively limited to pulling from the floor as your core fundemental exercise. or cleaning a weight and front squatting. I wish I could tell you something different since you have the desire and that's the most important part but unfortunately access to some basic equipment is also critical. You can certainly try to develop something on your own using the loading pattern or volume as a guide and try it.

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

mayhems said:

i also heard that too much cardio can affect the muscle... in other words prevent bulk? and it which should i do the one u posted or meso or w/e that says low volume tris/abs and then wed bis/abs

also what happens after the 8-10 period? start over? or switch up routines?

Click to expand...

You can do whatever you want after week 10. Many will take the weights/maxes from their previous cycle and repeat the program.

Cardio is the near opposite stimuli to weight training and can use up the body's resources. A huge cardio emphasis will certainly hurt a pure bulking program but some basic exercise will not.

As far as wanting a 5-6 day routine or spreading this program's volume out - it's not going to improve your gains or progress (some lifters who put up serious weight will spread the volume over a 4th day though as the weights can get too taxing - but we are talking about big lifts here and this likely applies to very few people here). There are better things one can do with time than spin ones wheels in the gym just to be there. A hobby or volunteering at a charity comes to mind as worthwhile ways to fill the day.

hmm i guess i can live with 3-4 days at the gym for 9-10 weeks at least.. but 1 thing i did everything i was suppose to do, but dont really feel sore? will it kick in after a few workouts or usually right away

gotta love the good ol' sore test

also whats the wait period between sets? and is there a certain speed i should bring the bar down on bench? perhaps 2 secs. down 1 up? if possible.

mayhems said:

also whats the wait period between sets? and is there a certain speed i should bring the bar down on bench? perhaps 2 secs. down 1 up? if possible.

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Don't fret about these details, they truly are irrelevant. The paradigm behind this program is that you basically manage yourself into overtraining for a month and then spend a month allowing your muscles to recover and grow while you gradually stress them and your CNS with a ever higher percentage of your maximal strength. The whole program is a really just a well-balanced framework for the dual-factor system.

The first two weeks are all about acclimatizing yourself to the workout while putting yourself through the paces. In week three you should be working hard at weights which you can pretty much just manage for the required sets and reps. Take whatever rest and speed you need to get through the workout but don't be lazy. Week four should be the same as week three but with even higher, but still manageable, weight. Weeks 5 to 9 pretty much take care of themselves unless you take too big a leap in weight.

Don't worry about not feeling sore for days at a time, either. I'm in week 8 of this routine and my legs have had a vague ache for over a month but I haven't otherwise felt particularly sore from the workouts. Soreness isn't any indication of a workout's effectiveness.

thanks alot man but you know where im coming from... most starter lifters think pain is gain, but my legs are actually kind of sore.. btw do u have a form of msn messenger or something i got some more questions to ask u

Madcow2 - I think the program is excellent and will be starting in 4 weeks but one thing - in regard to 90 degree back pulls - would heavy cable rows (possibly with wide bar) not be a superior sub ?

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

mayhems said:

thanks alot man but you know where im coming from... most starter lifters think pain is gain, but my legs are actually kind of sore.. btw do u have a form of msn messenger or something i got some more questions to ask u

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blut wump's answer is dead on. If it's any consolation I almost never get sore if I'm acclimated to training. Generally those getting sore train a body part with low frequency and high volume to failure. This gets you nice and sore but is dog shit for results over a period.

Week 8 just keeps getting better. I found week 7 actually fairly hard and was expecting to struggle a lot this week.

I did my Monday PRs fairly comfortably but was not looking forward to today's workout. Last week I'd barely managed my deadlifts and had even dropped the bar on my last rep and came away with a hurting back which had compromised my Friday barbell rows.

Today I added the requisite 5Kg (11 pounds) and just went for it. Nailed it with no problems and felt I could have done more. It reminded me of one of Curgeo's posts where he wrote about a changed attitude to weights. They're not a challenge, as such, either you lift it or you don't. It's the straining that counts. I reckon it's better when you do make the lift, though, and not just for the fuller rom.

Mandinka2 said:

Madcow2 - I think the program is excellent and will be starting in 4 weeks but one thing - in regard to 90 degree back pulls - would heavy cable rows (possibly with wide bar) not be a superior sub ?

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These are just barbell rows. Close to or at 90 degrees is simply the right way to do them. There's a link on the first page that goes into a detailed thread on exactly why and provides 2 supperior variations. The best one being towards the bottom on page 1. Here's the link: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366601

As far as substituting a cable variation - this would be the polar opposite of supperior. It would slash the effectiveness to the point where you'd just be better off doing something entirely different. Properly performed barbell rows are multiple mangitudes better than a cable or machine variation. The vast majority of machines are simply garbage designed to take up space and make gym members think they are getting something for their money. Good for rehab - bad for a serious trainee.

Madcow2 said:

These are just barbell rows. Close to or at 90 degrees is simply the right way to do them. There's a link on the first page that goes into a detailed thread on exactly why and provides 2 supperior variations. The best one being towards the bottom on page 1. Here's the link: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366601

As far as substituting a cable variation - this would be the polar opposite of supperior. It would slash the effectiveness to the point where you'd just be better off doing something entirely different. Properly performed barbell rows are multiple mangitudes better than a cable or machine variation. The vast majority of machines are simply garbage designed to take up space and make gym members think they are getting something for their money. Good for rehab - bad for a serious trainee.

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if I could reach out and hug a post
I think it would be this one

Madcow2 said:

It's like asking how one can use this workout using only a Bowflex. Squattiing is very fundemental to development. The nature of this program assumes one has access to squat stands, a bench, a barbell and some weight. This isn't exactly demanding in the way of exotic equipment. I can empathize with your predicament but you are effectively limited to pulling from the floor as your core fundemental exercise. or cleaning a weight and front squatting. I wish I could tell you something different since you have the desire and that's the most important part but unfortunately access to some basic equipment is also critical. You can certainly try to develop something on your own using the loading pattern or volume as a guide and try it.

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I probubly will
or I may wait until I can pick up a squat rack and do the program proper like govna...
I have been doing Linear and Step Cycles from Pavel's Power to the People, and I have been getting such pleasing strength gains that I love it
so maybe by the time I get a squat rack I will have grown ready for a change of pace

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Madcow2 said:

blut wump's answer is dead on. If it's any consolation I almost never get sore if I'm acclimated to training. Generally those getting sore train a body part with low frequency and high volume to failure. This gets you nice and sore but is dog shit for results over a period.

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I do that sometimes
aside frm the failure part
I either do a low frequency high volume or a low volume high frequency routine
I have never done a mid volume mid frequency I dont think

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

mayhems said:

hmm i guess i can live with 3-4 days at the gym for 9-10 weeks at least.. but 1 thing i did everything i was suppose to do, but dont really feel sore? will it kick in after a few workouts or usually right away

gotta love the good ol' sore test

Click to expand...

Oh, madcow is gonna have a field day with this one...

Bionic

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

BionicBC said:

Quote: Originally Posted by mayhems

hmm i guess i can live with 3-4 days at the gym for 9-10 weeks at least.. but 1 thing i did everything i was suppose to do, but dont really feel sore? will it kick in after a few workouts or usually right away

gotta love the good ol' sore test


Oh, madcow is gonna have a field day with this one...

Bionic

Click to expand...

Not long ago, though, I'd have thought the same: that soreness was a good indicator of how well the workout was going to be of benefit to my progress.

I was working each bodypart to failure once a week for about four or five weeks and then taking a week off before starting again ramping up the intensity and volume until I again felt impending burnout. Despite the ever-present soreness and hard workouts, the strength gains were slowing to a crawl at best and that's what drove me to the internet in search of knowledge. There had to be a major flaw in my training method.

When I saw madcow's original posting of this routine I filed it away under 'interesting'. After a bit more reading and thought on the idea behind the dual-factor paradigm, I decided it made a lot of sense and was worth a two-month investment. The program also tied in nicely with other changes I wanted to make to my workouts which was cool. I've made better gains in the past two months than I have in the previous six.

I have one question. How would one judge when one is ready to run the program as 3-1-3 rather than 4-1-4 in weeks of volume-deload-intensity? Maybe it's something that'll become obvious after a few times through.

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Blut Wump said:

Not long ago, though, I'd have thought the same: that soreness was a good indicator of how well the workout was going to be of benefit to my progress.

I was working each bodypart to failure once a week for about four or five weeks and then taking a week off before starting again ramping up the intensity and volume until I again felt impending burnout. Despite the ever-present soreness and hard workouts, the strength gains were slowing to a crawl at best and that's what drove me to the internet in search of knowledge. There had to be a major flaw in my training method.

When I saw madcow's original posting of this routine I filed it away under 'interesting'. After a bit more reading and thought on the idea behind the dual-factor paradigm, I decided it made a lot of sense and was worth a two-month investment. The program also tied in nicely with other changes I wanted to make to my workouts which was cool. I've made better gains in the past two months than I have in the previous six.

I have one question. How would one judge when one is ready to run the program as 3-1-3 rather than 4-1-4 in weeks of volume-deload-intensity? Maybe it's something that'll become obvious after a few times through.

Click to expand...

Actually, isnt it 4-1-5? For a total of 10 weeks?
Bionic

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

BionicBC said:

Actually, isnt it 4-1-5? For a total of 10 weeks?
Bionic

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I'd give you K for that but it seems I don't spread enough.

I've been working towards a 9 week total and I run out of weight at the gym next week for my Friday squats. I'm already having to press 1.25Kg weights into the gaps in the 20Kg rubber-coated plates to turn them into 25s. This is a blow, so much for learning to read.

Everyone must have wondered why I was talking about week 8 PRs. I'll have to think on this one and see what next week brings. I guess this means I'm going to get even stronger.

I'm going to start by re-reading this thread from the beginning.

Thanks, I owe you K

I believe it is 4-1-4.

You are supposed to pr in week's 3 and 8, and then try for another pr week's 4 and 9.

I'm going to stick with 4-1-4.

I'm sure this routine could be run as pretty much any combination of 5-1-4, 5-1-5, 4-1-4 etc. madcow has mentioned even 3-1-3. It's in the principle not the fine details. I've aimed for 4-1-4 and I'll stick with it.

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Generally reasonably experienced trainees can run 4:1:4. The single deloading week I just happen to break out as 1, it would be equivalent to say 4:5 with the first of the 5 weeks being held constant at week 4 training weights as the majority of the 2nd phase serves as deloading.

Someone getting back into training or very unfamiliar with this type of training would benefit from running 6:1:4 where they would just start much lighter and take longer to build up. The initial weeks for them would be very light and just going through the motions.

As far as 3:1:3, the only benefit of doing this would be in compressing the training cycle. Note that record weeks in this program are now 4 of the 7 weeks rather than 4 of the 9. This is very significant and requires some fairly serious recovery and acclimation to work capacity. This assumes perfect weight selection, a large tolerance for work capacity, a complete understanding of your own body's tolerances and requirements for recovery and probably a good amount of genetics. I'd imagine even under these scenarios the total volume would probably still be excessive for a good percentage of the population making this option less effective rather than more so. The benefit to someone who can tolerate a more condenced verision is the ability to compress the amount of time spent in ramping the weights - for the vast majority this time is hugely beneficial if for nothing else just some recovery. I actually only mentioned this 3:1:3 once and the vast majority of everyone would do well to ignore it since the % of the population likely to benefit is very small and largely at the elite levels.

Anyway, the gravy of the program is simply that it works very well accross a broad spectrum of athletes producing tons of hypertrophy and strength while being a very easy to understand example of a dual factor program. After one gains some experience with these and better understands individual limits to loading and deloading one can easily tailer customized programs using similar framework.

MADCOW2..This thread is awesome, great program here! I cant wait to start this program with my next cycle in may. I will be doing a test/deca/tbol/var cycle with this and was wondering if you would recommend any changes, as my recovery times will be sped up alot. Though a am on the higher end of the experience spectrum. Another question i have is this... All 5x5 and 3x3 exercises are to be done to near failure correct, meaning last rep on last set is a real bastard right lol? Or is this only to be focused on during deloading/intensity phases, and volume phase only worry about doing all reps and sets without much trouble...like if i can barely get 405 5x5 on squat, should i do 385 and get though it a little easier? Thanks for any help you can offer madcow!

AND WHY ISNT THIS A STICKY YET??? More wholesome juicy info in this thread than on 95% of elitefitness. BIG props to you madcow

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Thanks for the good words.

In both phases you are building to records. Your best 5x5 and 1x5 in weeks 3 and 4 for the volume phase and for the intensity phase 3x3 and 1x3 in weeks 8 and 9. Obviously the nature of records mean that you may encounter failure so if you have another week you simply use the same weight the following week. It's important that the weights be ramped over the time period to the target records so you want to start within yourself a bit. Failure may happen but great results can be had by someone who works slightly within themselves and never fails furing the whole program - conversely, someone failing every week will ruin this thing. Consistently training to failure is about the best way to not get stronger or grow that I can think of. Most experienced naturals will not progress well at all on a program focused on failure and those using anabolics will require an increased dosage to get a decent effect - both do better in the absence of a train to failure methodology but enough drugs will allow someone to grow on shitty stimuli all machine program a la the mid to late 80's BBers (they still looked great but their training wouldn't grow a 16 year old novice lifter).

As far as training on drugs, everyone's natural tolerances for loading and deloading vary widely so drugs only moves an individual's scale up progressively with dosage (albeit in diminishing returns per mg past a certain threshhold). Typically a drugged lifter will take his natural baseline program and add volume and frequency as needed to maximize the training effect. Messing with intensity (% of 1RM) or training to failure consistently is not advised as it screws up the pattern of the stimuli and the waves. Basically anabolics increase training tolerances/recovery, and the body's response to the training stimuli. The optimal stimuli remains the same, you can just handle more of it. I would definitely advise that you set your program so that in PCT you are in a low volume high intensity protocol - this will allow you to retain your strength/muscle without putting undo amounts of stress on the body as the goal is to retain while minimizing the catabolic effects of training in a no-test environment. You also don't want to come straight off a heavy loading period and go right into a zero test environment. It's important to think about how this fits into your cycle length and tapering of the longer acting injectibles and cessation of orals. Needless to say, it complicates things a bit and a journal proves to be invaluable in this scenario as experience helps vastly in regards to training in a non-standard hormone environment..

once you finish the intensity part, do you go straight into the next volume phase?

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Yeah, you can go right back in. An easy thing to do would be to take your previous records from the past cycle's volume phase and apply it to week 3. Take the intensity phase records and apply to week 8. You should acheive these and surpass them by a margin in the following week. If your training is going really well or your shot low last time, you can increase the weight for weeks 3/8 based on your previous records. Just back out the target weights for the rest of the weeks from these points. It makes it a lot easier once you know your current records in these lifts and how easily/poorly you tolerated a given ramping..

Kane Fan said:

I know
believe me I want to get one
do you think I could substitue Deadlifts for Squats and SLDL for BLDL?

Click to expand...

Could a hack squat substitute for squats in a pinch? It's basically a deadlift with the weight behind the legs. Obviously to do with deads in the same day would put a huge strain on your grip.

Even if you don't do the program just yet, you might consider doing hack squats until you can get some squatting equipment.

The program is intriguing, but I'm still confused with something.

Part 1) I understand in the beginning, you more or less guess your weights. I see you ramp them up in week two, and then try to use a 'record' weight in week three, a weight you think would be your max (or close to). Do I have this correct so far?

Part 2) Now, how much of a "ramp up" is done? For example, if someone felt they could roughly squat 5x5 for 315 - where would weeks 2 and 1 start, about? Are we talking large jumps in weight? This reminds me of HST, in the way weight is set in backward intervals to your first day/week. Am I on target here?

Part 3) Okay, so assuming it was something like 255 for week 1, 285 for week 2, and 315 for week 3, you'd probably only jump up a small margin (say, 5-10 lbs.) for week 4. Is that correct?

Part 4) Hopefully I have it all so far. Week 5 I get. You keep the weight steady, lowering reps and frequency. Now, I hear that even though weeks 6-9 are the "intensity phase", your body is still deloading and this is where you'll see growth. How is this so? I figure it's not exactly deloading when you're pushing the weights higher and higher. Is it due to the lowered volume?

Part 5) I'm guessing even though you drop to 3x3/1x3 in the intensity phase, the jumps you make in weight will still be relatively small, compared to earlier (assuming I was right in using large jumps). Now, you would choose a weight in weeks six and seven you could perform with confidence, nothing record setting. In the eigth and ninth weeks, though, you would try to set records again. Right?

Part 6) Finally, after going through the ninth week, I could start week 1 all over again immediately after, yes? If I do that, should I bump all my previous weights (assuming I nailed them all with little problem, and the records felt dead on) by an interval of 5-10 lbs? Or should I just move up the maxes and not worry about shifting the other weights that lead up to them?

I'm looking forward to delving into this program. I already started yesterday, and I'm excited to go further.

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Part 1) Yes

Part 2) That's a matter of individuality. Under a 4 week ramping program you obviously have to start fairly high to be ready to perform record lifts be week 3/4. The higher the start the higher the stress on the body over the period. In it's optimal form it comes down to the individual and his/her tolerances. For someone newer to this, you'd want to ensure you start reasonably (the weights you mentioned look good) that way you know you won't botch the weight selection and you'll be able to get a reference for how well/poorly you tolerated the volume phase for the next application. Novices would start very light and ramp for 2 extra weeks maybe even more in some cases(volume phase would be 6 weeks).

Part 3) Yes - you could also base the jump on how easily you handled the 315. If you blew it out of the water you might want more.

Part 4) Yeah, the lowered total volume is the key. The intensity is not so high that you are really taxing the CNS until toward the very end. Lowered frequency can also come into play with the 2x per week intensity phase described on page 1 as a lot of people cannot tolerate the strict 3x per week and it may fail to deload them if they don't adequately monitor themselves and adjust (given that most using this program are new to it and haven't spent a lot of years in the gym building tolerance - the 2x will take the guesswork out of it as the essential factor is to deload, I just happen to use the 3x but I can also adjust on the fly fairly well if needed where someone without a decent amount of experience probably can't).

Part 5) Depends on the individual again with regard to the jumps - experience is the best teacher here so going through the program once will give you a great reference point for the future and as with the volume it is better to start on the conservative side. You have the weeks right, you train within yourself ramping the weights to records in weeks 8/9. Incidentally, if you fail on a record or even during the ramp you keep the weight the same for the next week.

Part 6) You should be able to restart at week 1 immediately. Judge how you feel, it might be worth taking a light week between. You're definitely going to move the maxes. If you nailed week 4 and week 9 you can make them your week 3/8 or add another margin if they were very easy. For the ramping weights I'd reflect back and see how you set them previously and how well/poorly you tolerated it. With records moving up, your ramp should move up but it's more important that you understant where your tolerances are and peg the ramps accordingly.

I wish I could provide better guidlines but tolerances vary widely and are very individual. What is deloading for one person might exceed another's loading. Even at the world levels tolerances have a wide variation with lifters who perform very similarly on the platform but one can tolerate a hurculean workload while the other handles much less. Their top lifts are the same but the stimulus required and tolerable for each is individual. The real key is getting an idea where your tolerances are and that's a lot easier once you've run this once.

Wow, you covered all the bases just as I had hoped. I don't have any other questions in mind at the time, but should they come up, I'll be sure to ask. Thanks a lot, it's much appreciated.