Bill Roberts on Protein intake and Steroids

[Realgains]

Just got a reply from my favorite steroid guru, Bill Roberts, in regard to a protein question.

"Absolutely, when planning to gain muscle rapidly when on anabolic steroids, more protein is needed than under conditions where one cannot expect rapid muscle gains. This only stands to reason since each pound of muscle gained contains 90 grams of protein or something like this and due to marginal feed effeciency never being anywhere near 100%, quite a bit more than 90 grams more protein is required in excess of what would be adequate maintainance protein for a resistance training athlete.
I recommend 2-2.5 grams per pound of LBM/day with the lower figure being really minimal. When protein is substantially les than this, substantially less gains are seen."

When I asked him how much protein is needed when training natural he said...."1-1.5 grams per pound of body weight"

Bill Roberts

As I mentioned before I was from the Aurthor Jones/Darden school and believed one didn't need all that much more protein to see great gains....it wasn't until I started to do trial and error experimentation that I realized I was dead wrong.

RG

 

[THEENDISNEAR]

Unless you made a typo I have been really cheating meself.

Is it me, or does anyone else find this a bit much? If its right then I have been under nourished by over 50%. This just cant be right or I would be an anorectic instead of athletic.

If there is a study that proves the 2-2.5g protien/pond of lbm/day I'd like to see it.

 

[Realgains]

Unless you made a typo I have been really cheating meself.

Is it me, or does anyone else find this a bit much? If its right then I have been under nourished by over 50%. This just cant be right or I would be an anorectic instead of athletic.

If there is a study that proves the 2-2.5g protien/pond of lbm/day I'd like to see it.

You will still make gains with less.

The above is pretty much common knowledge with the men that juice.

RG

 

[THEENDISNEAR]

You will still make gains with less.

The above is pretty much common knowledge with the men that juice.

RG

Is this published? Any what about women?

 

[MS]

No, it's not published. I'm afraid that "common knowledge" or "Bill says" is not really very convincing to me. I strongly believe that the timing and cycling of your protein is more important than blindly shoving in as much as you can because "more is better" so that you just end up upregulating protein degrading enzymes and increasing oxidation of protiens for fuel so that your body DOES actually need more and more. It is also non-sensical to believe that steroids actually INCREASE the need for dietary protein. Study after study in animals and humans has shown that AAS increase feed efficiency rather than decrease it. I also believe (based on several studies in humans) that the maximum amount of dietary protein needed for non-AAS weight training adults is around 1.6-1.8 grams per kg. This is around 0.8g per pound. No one has been able to demostrate an increase in nitrogen deposition with protein intakes higher than this unless other nutrients are limiting (eg when dieting).

90 grams of protein to add a pound of muscle.....this means that to add 4 lbs of muscle in one week you need to take in an extra 360g of protein more than you burn or excrete over that week. Yet to go from non-juiced to juiced, he is recommending you have to add an extra gram per POUND per day. For a 200 lb juicer this means they would need an extra 1400g of protein more than the non-juicer to add and extra 360g worth of muscle. This would represent a huge DECREASE in feed efficiency by anyone's standards.

However, there is no harm in eating extra protein so if it makes you feel like you're making better progress then by all means chow down. I have to admit that there are few topics that get bodybuilders more fired up than discussing protein requirements......a lot of anecdote and not much science.

 

[Realgains]

No, it's not published. I'm afraid that "common knowledge" or "Bill says" is not really very convincing to me. I strongly believe that the timing and cycling of your protein is more important than blindly shoving in as much as you can because "more is better" so that you just end up upregulating protein degrading enzymes and increasing oxidation of protiens for fuel so that your body DOES actually need more and more. It is also non-sensical to believe that steroids actually INCREASE the need for dietary protein. Study after study in animals and humans has shown that AAS increase feed efficiency rather than decrease it. I also believe (based on several studies in humans) that the maximum amount of dietary protein needed for non-AAS weight training adults is around 1.6-1.8 grams per kg. This is around 0.8g per pound. No one has been able to demostrate an increase in nitrogen deposition with protein intakes higher than this unless other nutrients are limiting (eg when dieting).

90 grams of protein to add a pound of muscle.....this means that to add 4 lbs of muscle in one week you need to take in an extra 360g of protein more than you burn or excrete over that week. Yet to go from non-juiced to juiced, he is recommending you have to add an extra gram per POUND per day. For a 200 lb juicer this means they would need an extra 1400g of protein more than the non-juicer to add and extra 360g worth of muscle. This would represent a huge DECREASE in feed efficiency by anyone's standards.

However, there is no harm in eating extra protein so if it makes you feel like you're making better progress then by all means chow down. I have to admit that there are few topics that get bodybuilders more fired up than discussing protein requirements......a lot of anecdote and not much science.

MS but what about all the trial and error experience out there.....my experience for one. I noticed a huge difference when I increased my protein consumption.

MS there isn't a single steroid guru out there that holds to your belief in regard to protein, not one, and you can't just disregaurd that as there are some very educated guru's out there ...what makes you so sure that you are correct and everyone else is wrong, after all you have yet to test your belief out on yourself or anyone else I think.


MS you really should be more respectful in your tone towards men like Roberts. He is a very smart guy and very well educated. I believe he has two science degrees and one at the PHD level.
He has also conducted many studies on steroids and nutrition and he has even invented a few things, like finasol for one. The guy really is a walking book on steroids.

I repeat MS you have not tested your theory as you have yet to try steroids. Come on now don't you think that holds a fair amount of weight?

RG

 

[nandi12]

However, there is no harm in eating extra protein so if it makes you feel like you're making better progress then by all means chow down.

Actually a lot of folks aren't aware that elevated amino acid intake induces insulin resistance in normal humans. Chronic insulin resistance leads to all kinds of health problems. I try to keep within the guidelines of the study I posted last night:

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=158035

J Am Coll Nutr 2000 Oct;19(5 Suppl):513S-521S

Beyond the zone: protein needs of active individuals.

Lemon PW.

Exercise Nutrition Research Laboratory, The University of Western Ontario, London, Canada. [email protected]

There has been debate among athletes and nutritionists regarding dietary protein needs for centuries. Although contrary to traditional belief, recent scientific information collected on physically active individuals tends to indicate that regular exercise increases daily protein requirements; however, the precise details remain to be worked out. Based on laboratory measures, daily protein requirements are increased by perhaps as much as 100% vs. recommendations for sedentary individuals (1.6-1.8 vs. 0.8 g/kg). Yet even these intakes are much less than those reported by most athletes. This may mean that actual requirements are below what is needed to optimize athletic performance, and so the debate continues. Numerous interacting factors including energy intake, carbohydrate availability, exercise intensity, duration and type, dietary protein quality, training history, gender, age, timing of nutrient intake and the like make this topic extremely complex. Many questions remain to be resolved. At the present time, substantial data indicate that the current recommended protein intake should be adjusted upward for those who are physically active, especially in populations whose needs are elevated for other reasons, e.g., growing individuals, dieters, vegetarians, individuals with muscle disease-induced weakness and the elderly. For these latter groups, specific supplementation may be appropriate, but for most North Americans who consume a varied diet, including complete protein foods (meat, eggs, fish and dairy products), and sufficient energy the increased protein needs induced by a regular exercise program can be met in one's diet.

Here is a discussion of amino acid induced insulin resistance:

Diabetes 2002 Mar;51(3):599-605

Mechanism of amino acid-induced skeletal muscle insulin resistance in humans.

Krebs M, Krssak M, Bernroider E, Anderwald C, Brehm A, Meyerspeer M, Nowotny P, Roth E, Waldhausl W, Roden M.

Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine III, University of Vienna Medical School, Vienna, Austria.

Plasma concentrations of amino acids are frequently elevated in insulin-resistant states, and a protein-enriched diet can impair glucose metabolism. This study examined effects of short-term plasma amino acid (AA) elevation on whole-body glucose disposal and cellular insulin action in skeletal muscle. Seven healthy men were studied for 5.5 h during euglycemic (5.5 mmol/l), hyperinsulinemic (430 pmol/l), fasting glucagon (65 ng/l), and growth hormone (0.4 microg/l) somatostatin clamp tests in the presence of low (approximately 1.6 mmol/l) and increased (approximately 4.6 mmol/l) plasma AA concentrations. Glucose turnover was measured with D-[6,6-(2)H(2)]glucose. Intramuscular concentrations of glycogen and glucose-6-phosphate (G6P) were monitored using (13)C and (31)P nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy, respectively. A approximately 2.1-fold elevation of plasma AAs reduced whole-body glucose disposal by 25% (P < 0.01). Rates of muscle glycogen synthesis decreased by 64% (180--315 min, 24 plus minus 3; control, 67 plus minus 10 micromol center dot l(-1) center dot min(-1); P < 0.01), which was accompanied by a reduction in G6P starting at 130 min (DeltaG6P(260--300 min), 18 plus minus 19; control, 103 plus minus 33 micromol/l; P < 0.05). In conclusion, plasma amino acid elevation induces skeletal muscle insulin resistance in humans by inhibition of glucose transport/phosphorylation, resulting in marked reduction of glycogen synthesis.

 

[Realgains]

nandi12...the male MS... he he he



Good info

RG

 

[nandi12]

Seriously, RG, I don't know how much protein a person needs. I'm sure if you are juicing heavily it's hard to get enough. I worry about insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes because of my bad genetics. I try to stay lean partly for that reason too. Between steroids (which cause insulin resistance), GH (ditto, but by a different mechanism), T3 (increases the expression of genes encoding for enzymes involved in the synthesis and secretion of insulin by pancreatic beta cells) and high protein, I kind of worry about hyperinsulinemia.

 

[HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex]

The #1 impedement in progress on an A/S run is protein consumption.9 out of 10 times when someone comes out with,"I'm in week 6 of my test/d-bol/eq cycle,and I've only gained 5 lbs",the first question is how much protein are you consuming,and how often?And 9 times out of ten,therein lies the problem,lol.The minute I get the person to jack their intake up to 2+grams per lb of BW daily,and in 3-4 hour intervals-Bingo!The tape measure/scale starts moving.Very important point.

 

[MR. BMJ]

I like MS's idea of protein/carb cycling when dieting and bulking. From my results, I just don't like adding too many calories to a bulking cycle as I have found that the fat ratio outweighs the muscle gain. This is of course in excessive amounts, as I understand that on any bulking regimine fat gain will always be a inevitable. I have found that I have not found any difference from my protein varying from the range of 1.0-2.0 grams per pound of bodyweight. Lets say I am eating 4,000 calories. I will cycle my macronutrient ratios to fit this frame (calories will also vary, but this is just an example). As long as my calorie level is the same, the only difference I will receive is added extracellular water weight due to my increased ratios coming from carbs. This gives me a 'soft' feeling/look. Now with protein, I do not necessarily gain more muscle, but the water weight is less profound, thus I am less 'soft' looking. I will reach a plateau with both, therefore I prefer to cycle both during the week.

One thing I do notice, and I don't know if maybe this is a reason why Huck has seen better results when recommending people to boost up the protein to 2+ grams/pounds of BW, but lets say that if I was eating 4,000 calories from a protein intake of 1.5 grams per pound of bodyweight and I come to a total halt in gains. Someone suggests that I boost up my protein to 2+ grams/lb of BW. Now, if other macronutrients are not debited, and the dieter simply adds in these added protein calories,....How can one determine if these gains are from bumping up the protein, or just simply from there being an increase in calories???

I do not think that there will ever be an exact amount that can be suggested for optimal gains, as there are just too many factors involved between genders, hormones, races, etc...However, I would like there to be more research directed towards this area to shut out these damn myths/opinions/guesses etc...I guess this is one reason why I picked my major in the field of sport nutrition research (I know it isn't no biochem degree, but I plan on getting that as well. )

I don't like answering or commenting for other's, but in defense of MS, I can absolutely, guarantee that she meant no disrespect to Bill Robert's. And just in case, and to make sure I don't give out too much 'personal' info here...she does have many degrees as well, including a PhD. Aargghhh...hope i'm not in trouble.

As for my answer on protein amount, I have come to the conclusion, through my own successes, that I respond best to an amount between 1.0-2.0 for bulking and 1.2 to 1.8 for dieting...in a cycled manner like previously mentioned.

This is a frustrating topic to debate...lol.

Thanks for the B. Roberts opinion though RG...i'll admit he is a very respectable and knowledgeable guy, and it is always nice to see his opinion on anything. It also gives for a nice debate.

BMJ

 

[wilson6]

My two cents.

What we know from the recent human literature.

Sheffield-Moore et al., 2000, both OX studies.

1) OX alone increases skeletal muscle fractional protein synthesis in a fasted state because it improves intracellular reutilization of amino acids. This is why AAS help to preserve lean mass while dieting.

2) OX at 15 mg/d cut circulating testosterone levels in half in this group of guys in only 5 days. Thus, my guess is that even 10 mg/d in women is likely to shut down LH, FSH and ovarian production of estrogen and disrupt menstrual function in some women. This could potentially lead to a E rebound as was described in one of the recent threads.

3) A state of hyperaminoacidemia (high concentrations of circulating AAs) will also, in the absence of OX increase muscle fractional protein synthesis (FSR). So clearly if you’re protein deficient or lacking frequent protein consumption (every 2 hrs) or using slow-proteins, you’ll limit protein synthesis. I would have to agree with MS in that more frequent protein meals is probably more important than total daily intake. My guess is that 200 grams of protein spread over 8 – 10 feedings would be more effective at maintaining muscle protein synthesis than 300 grams spread over 2 – 3 meals. Remember that circulating essential amino acids appear to be the critical factor, largely independent of circulating anabolic hormones to maintain muscle protein synthesis (Tipton et al., 1999, 2000). Any time circulating concentrations fall, protein synthesis slows considerably regardless of how much juice is in the system.

4) Combining OX with a hyperaminoacidemic state will further increase FSR only if enough amino acids are present because OX increases whole body amino acid uptake thereby decreasing arterial availability of amino acids to skeletal muscle. Therefore, I would say that increasing amino acids during a cycle is important, but only if your protein intake is marginal to begin with. If you taking in 2 – 2.5 g/kg a day, then it probably won’t matter.

5) If you’re dieting, then you have to increase protein intake because you will use more if it for energy, reducing the availability of amino acids for protein synthesis.

6) In the recent study by Bhasin et al., 2001, the subjects (young healthy men that were NOT exercising) increased their lean mass by 7.5, 11.5 and 17.5 lbs over 20 weeks taking 125, 300 and 600 mg of testosterone enanthate, respectively. Their total daily calorie intake was 36 kcal/kg/d and protein was 1.2 g/kg/d. With an average body mass of 75 kg, that amounts to 2700 calories and 90 grams of protein a day. Considering the rather small (by bodybuilding standards) consumption of food and protein and the fact that they weren’t even lifting, 17.5 lbs of lean mass in 20 weeks taking 600 mg of TE a week isn’t bad.

7) Lastly, I’ll put this one out there for comparison. In 1994, Alway compared women bodybuilders that were natural or were juicing. Both groups had similar training routines and diets, and had trained for 6+ years. They were all about 5’ 4” and around 30 yrs of age. The group using AAS intermittently for 6 years averaging 175 mg/wk dosing (combination of Deca, test and winny) had on average about 30 lbs more muscle than the non-AAS users (big difference on a 5’ 4” frame). The AAS users were also 13.8% bodyfat in comparison to the non-users that were about 19% bodyfat. Lastly, the AAS group had Type I and II fiber areas that were 37% and 52% greater than the non-AAS group.

W6

 

[wilson6]

Something else I noticed from this study.

The guys taking 125 mg of test per week gained significant amounts of lean mass even though their total average circulating test was not different from baseline. What this suggests to me is that there is a difference in the peak test levels vs average. In normal guys the zenith and nadir of circulating test is pretty well controlled. However, when just 125 mg of TE is injected, supraphysiological levels are achieved for a day or so following the injection. I believe that it is this brief exposure and/or higher than normal T levels for a 2-3 day period following an injection that accounts for the increase in lean mass in the guys getting a replacement dose.

Never really thought of this much until I read this study, but there are couple of guys in their 40's at the gym with normal T levels, that tried taking 200 mg every 10 days of TE and found that it did indeed help them. Interesting.

W6

 

[NY Muscle]

Ive been following Bill Roberts advice for years..the man knows his stufff...

 

[Realgains]

The #1 impedement in progress on an A/S run is protein consumption.9 out of 10 times when someone comes out with,"I'm in week 6 of my test/d-bol/eq cycle,and I've only gained 5 lbs",the first question is how much protein are you consuming,and how often?And 9 times out of ten,therein lies the problem,lol.The minute I get the person to jack their intake up to 2+grams per lb of BW daily,and in 3-4 hour intervals-Bingo!The tape measure/scale starts moving.Very important point.

Elites #1 Guru speaks.....LISTEN!

RG

 

[MS]

Looking at the dudes who increased their lean mass by 7.5, 11.5 and 17.5 lbs by consuming no more than 90g protein per day should get you guys thinking. When anyone encounters an idiot who says "I'm in week 6 of my test/d-bol/eq cycle,and I've only gained 5 lbs", there are other questions you should be asking., such as "which scammer did you get your gear from". I will wager that the problem (if it's not bogus gear) is that they've been eating too much protein for too long and their body was already in full-on protein oxidation mode. There is good experimental evidence for this happening, such as the work of Forslund et al, 2001 who note the dramatic upregulation of enzymes responsible for oxidizing protein for fuel on a high protein diet, and also increasing evidence that the rate, and direction, of change in extracellular concentrations of amino acids (rather than the static concentration, per se) may be more important for stimulating FSR. This has been born out in women (non-AAS users) who show greater nitrogen retention when they take their protein in a pulsed fashion rather than drip-fed throughout the day.

I have no doubt that increasing the protein intake of someone who's already on a chronic high protein diet (I have yet to meet a bodybuilder who wasn't on a high protein diet of some sort, and often chronic) would lead to increased synthesis if they are already suffering from diet induced protein oxidation and are eating the same amount of protein all day every day, since this is hardly the optimal way to meet your protein requirements. But I see it as the original. 'meat head' approach to bodybuilding….more is always better. Realgains, you challenge me with the question 'have I tried it' to which the answer is a definite yes, though I have never used AAS, many of my (female) clients have.. I challenge you with the question, 'have you tried cycling lower amounts of protein?' I would also like to point out that in my experience (since we're obviously resorting to anecdote rather than evidence), a chronically high protein bulking diet leads to greater LBM loss when a trainer starts their equally high protein cutting diet, though thte LBM loss is less in folks on AAS since the AAS helps you RETAIN the protein so you CAN get by on less.

There is no doubt that an excess of amino acids is necessary for optimal muscle growth (with or without AAS). What constitutes 'excess' depends entirely on the habitual protein intake of the person (as well as other factors such as calorie restriction). This can be easily changed by adapting the individual's diet to make them more efficient at using the amino acids available to them rather than the other way around. I mean absolutely no disrespect to any of your gurus, and I'm not questioning their credentials or experience. I'm just pointing out that there are alternatives which allow a bodybuilder to make better gains on less protein by eating smarter rather than more.

 

[Realgains]

Hey MS I like that post better.

But I have tried using less, but not cycling with less. No, actually I guess I do cycle with less as I use far less protein when "off"

All I know is that when I was fixated in the Aurthor Jones/Elington Darden school of thought (only very slightly more protein than a non lifter) I did not see the gains I thought I shoud see. I had all my other ducks in a row as I have always allowed for proper intensity coupled with plenty of rest, days out of the gym and sleep etc. Finially I reluctantly decided to try a high protein diet, at the insistance of my training partner, and the results were immediate and dramatic....but I was on steroids at the time. It must be noted that my total caloric intake was high before I increased my protein intake.

MS you have tried a higher protein diet but only as a natural. You have not examined the difference as a steroid user and that was my whole point. Maybe you should do a study on yourself in this regard.
I think a high protein diet doesn't make a great deal of difference when training naturally, as even .75 grams per pound of body weight is more than enough I think.

Remember now this is coming from a person that was dead against a high protein intake. I used to think think that BBers that used a lot of protein were basically unifomed at the least, or idiots at the worst.

It is no coincedence that other men have experienced the same thing and that all the current guru's recommend increasing protein intake significantly while "on".

As you know not everything needs to be proven with double blind studies. Personal experience through trail and error is at least as important. Science is not always logical. There is so much we do not understand about how the human body works and especially while on anabolic steroids.

All I know is what I have experienced personally. I don't have the science behind my beliefs but I do have 19 years of tinkering experience.


RG

 

[wilson6]

Are you two on diuretics?

W6

 

[Realgains]

Are you two on diuretics?

W6

Ah... no...I'm on tren he he he

I am very mild and sensitive while off

I think MS needs to come over to the dark side for just one cycle of oral primo or something he hehe.


RG

 

[MS]

No, actually I'm retaining fluid at the moment, so I would come in dead last in any pissing contest unless it was against some with complete kidney failure.

 

[BronzedGoddess]

What about the kidneys of people that ingest so much protein? What happens in the long run? My husband was just diagnosed as Type 1 (insulin dependent) diabetic. And I believe he was told to eat no more than 50g a day because he has to be extra carefull with his kidneys. So that got me thinking and I also want to make sure I take good care of myself so I can push him around in his wheelchair when were are in our 80's (that's a joke between us) Thanks

 

[SteelWeaver]

My question is, if you're cycling protein so low during a bulking phase, how do you not get fat with all the carbs you have to eat instead?

 

[MS]

RE protein intake and kidney damage-

When kidneys are working well, the glomeruli keep protein inside your body. High blood sugar and high blood pressure damage the kidneys’ glomeruli. Diabetes is often associated with high blood pressure and high blood sugar. When the kidneys are damaged, the protein leaks out of the kidneys into the urine. Damaged kidneys do not do a good job of cleaning out waste and extra fluids. So not enough waste and fluids go out of the body as urine. Instead, they build up in your blood. This is a bad thing. Your husband may or may not already have some of these problems. Some times it's hard to tell if a doc tells you to reduce protein BECAUSE there's already some kidney damage/blood pressure/blood sugar problems, or if they're just being cautious and trying to head off problems before they start. Whatever the reason, it doesn't really have any bearing on how much protein someone with healthy kidneys can safely eat. Just make sure you always drink plenty of clean, fresh water when you're eating high protein, and always keep you blood sugar and blood pressure at a healthy level!!

As for getting fat by substituting carbs for protein, just remember calories in/calories out. If you want to be really anal about it, you can cut your carb calories back by~10-15% to compensate for the difference in diet induced thermogenesis you get from the equivalent protein intake. And of course, keep your carbs low GI! You're also allowed to increase fat.

 

[BigEasy]

MS, W6, Nandi, BMJ, et al, ad nauseum.............

Thanks for the head splitting discussion and information! I now have a little more room for additional knowledge! Good job to all for a GREAT discussion!

 

[SteelWeaver]

I agree BE - these kinds of threads are the best. I feel REALLLY lucky to have access to the thoughts, opinions, knowledge etc of the above people.

Thanks for the answer, MS. Sorry if this is going off thread track, but what about this: I see the logic in lowering carb cals slightly, but surely increasing fat on a diet that is already high in carbs and low in protein (well, low for your typical bodybuilder), results in exactly the Western-style diet we're all trying to avoid? Except maybe for substituting low GI and mono/poly fats for the sugar and sat. fats.

 

[wilson6]

BG,

The protein issue depends on what state the kidneys are in right now.

If renal function is normal, no evidence of nephropathy in particular microalbuminuria (small amounts of albumin in the urine) and first evidence of bad things to come, then 50 g a day is probably overkill on the low end.

There is no evidence that higher protein diets in people with otherwise normal renal function who are well hydrated and not loading up daily on NSAIDS will have any long-term problems.

Now, if there is early evidence of renal problems, then he has to be careful.

I am currently training an overweight, African American female, Type I diabetic, age 40 and otherwise healthy, on an insulin pump with HbA1c under 8%. Her docs have had her on a high carb, low protein diet and told her not to lift weights because she is more prone to injury.

Well, so far all that advice has done is allowed her to become increasing fatter.

Since she started training with me she has not incurred any injury, has increased her lean mass, decreased bodyfat and reduced her basal insulin requirements twice.

I suggested that she increase her protein to some degree because she has no current renal problems, decrease her carbs, include some monounsaturated oil in her diet and roll with it.

The problem with the high carb diets is that they require insulin and even small amounts of insulin suppress fat oxidation. Since insulin is being pumped in constantly one is always in a carb oxidation, lipogenic state. Makes no sense because the fatter you get, the more insulin resistant you become and all the bad things follow such as hypertension, renal problems, poorer glycemic control that leads to the destruction of many organ systems.

While it is always wise to error on the cautious side in any disease state, often time’s clinicians are overly conservative and it may not always be the best way to go. One has to balance risk vs quality of life issues and make their own decisions to some extent. But, it is also important to monitor renal function, blood pressure and long-term glycemic control closely.

One thing for sure, if I were a Type I diabetic, I'd make glycemic control my number one priority because almost all the problems associated with Type I diabetes are a function of poor glycemic control.

And, there is no better way to reduce insulin requirements and dispose of blood glucose than aggressive exercise and maintenance of lean muscle mass.

W6

 

[Realgains]

So MS you are saying that .8grams per pound of body weight is more than enough for a great positive nitrogen balance and good gains while natural?

Are you then also saying that the use of AAS warrents NO increase in daily protein intake at all and in fact one could drop protein intake from the above and still see great gains?

RG

 

[MS]

Realgains, you and I both know that there is no absolute 'right' answer to what is the optimal amount of protein on or off AAS. My experience with women on moderate or low doses of AAS has proven to my satisfaction that they do not need more protein than my natty clients. I round the average protein intake to 1g per pound, or 2g per kg (close enough). Although this is average, they don't eat this much every day. 3-4 days of lower protein (1g/kg) followed by 3-4 days of higher protein (3g/kg) works extremely well in everyone that's stuck to it. I have never tried this with a male on a gram+ of gear a week, mainly because they are universally scared by the 'mens boards' and magazines they read that they will shrivel away to nothing if they go even one day without masses of protein. This is nonsense, and I believe everyone could make better gains by cycling their protein, carbs AND fats on a regular basis. I have no science to back this up, but I have a plethora of science that shows that the human body adapts very quickly to anything that it chronically ingests, including vitamins, minerals and calories. Once this adaptation takes place you find the body gets sloppy and less efficient at absorption, utilization, and more efficient at elimination etc... of whatever it is chronically exposed to. It's not rocket science.

 

[Realgains]

MS I can agree with much of what you say. I do not think its best to be on a very high preotien diet ALL the time and I have usually dropped my protein intake on non workout days...but not a great deal. I drop my protein intake by quite a bit while "off".

I would think that the human body would be adaptive and metabolize protein more effeciently when lower amounts of protein are consumed as this only stands to reason.

But it is my belief that while on large doses of androgens protein intake needs to be pretty darn high for much of the week and higher than you recommend. Maybe your recommendations would be okay for a female on small doses but for a man on doses over a gram per week I don't think it provides optimal amounts.

Too bad there is no science to back up the anecdotal experiences of myself and other men, but I am sure its around the corner......until then MS. And I always appreciate your input as it get the wheels turning every time. he he he

RG

 

[aurelius]

No, it's not published. I'm afraid that "common knowledge" or "Bill says" is not really very convincing to me. I strongly believe that the timing and cycling of your protein is more important than blindly shoving in as much as you can because "more is better" so that you just end up upregulating protein degrading enzymes and increasing oxidation of protiens for fuel so that your body DOES actually need more and more. It is also non-sensical to believe that steroids actually INCREASE the need for dietary protein. Study after study in animals and humans has shown that AAS increase feed efficiency rather than decrease it. I also believe (based on several studies in humans) that the maximum amount of dietary protein needed for non-AAS weight training adults is around 1.6-1.8 grams per kg. This is around 0.8g per pound. No one has been able to demostrate an increase in nitrogen deposition with protein intakes higher than this unless other nutrients are limiting (eg when dieting).

90 grams of protein to add a pound of muscle.....this means that to add 4 lbs of muscle in one week you need to take in an extra 360g of protein more than you burn or excrete over that week. Yet to go from non-juiced to juiced, he is recommending you have to add an extra gram per POUND per day. For a 200 lb juicer this means they would need an extra 1400g of protein more than the non-juicer to add and extra 360g worth of muscle. This would represent a huge DECREASE in feed efficiency by anyone's standards.

However, there is no harm in eating extra protein so if it makes you feel like you're making better progress then by all means chow down. I have to admit that there are few topics that get bodybuilders more fired up than discussing protein requirements......a lot of anecdote and not much science.

amen. As soon as I figured out this little scam I saved a lot on protein shakes.

 

[MS]

Yes realgains, gotta keep those wheels turning, otherwise boards like this would die a death of staleness and all we would need is a couple of stickies for newbies to read!

I've been thinking (and reading) about this over the last few days. At the front of my mind is that this is a WOMEN'S discussion board and I honestly don't care what your average male megajuicer thinks or does because it has no relevance to this board. But for the sake of completeness, I thought I would post a follow up of some interesting discussions and other research in this area on lower dose androgens in males (200-600mg range). I guess it's possible (though darned unlikely) that somehow the opposite is true as the dose of AAS increases above a certain threshold. This makes no biological sense but it has yet to be proven or unproven. Here are a couple of more insights from some folks that have done a lot of research in this area just for our consideration. I have highlighted the most relevant bits to make it easier to scan.

First a chunk of discussion section of the Sheffield-Moore et al 2000 article:

"We examined the response of muscle protein kinetics to an acute amino acid infusion before and after oxandrolone-induced anabolism. We demonstrated that both the model-derived value for muscle protein synthesis and the traditionally derived value of the FSR of muscle protein increased with infusion of amino acids both before and after oxandrolone-induced anabolism in young men. WE DID NOT, HOWEVER, SHOW A STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN THE FSR OF MUSCLE PROTEIN WHEN COMPARING AMINO ACIDS ALONE WITH THE COMBINATION OF OXANDROLONE AND AMINO ACIDS…………………………….. Muscle anabolism during amino acid infusion occurred by stimulation of protein synthesis, because protein breakdown was unchanged. Moreover, protein synthetic efficiency was UNCHANGED WITH AMINO ACID INFUSION FROM CONTROL TO OXANDROLONE, INDICATING THAT NO GREATER FRACTION OF THE AVAILABLE INTRACELLULAR AMINO ACIDS WAS INCORPORATED INTO MUSCLE PROTEINS.

We recently reported that 5 days of oxandrolone administration increased skeletal muscle anabolism, because protein breakdown was unchanged (15). Also, we reported a significant decrease in outward amino acid transport (FV,M), along with a calculated INCREASE IN PROTEIN SYNTHETIC EFFICIENCY, TOGETHER INDICATING INCREASED INTRACELLULAR REUTILIZATION OF AMINO ACIDS (15). These findings demonstrated the anabolic potential of oxandrolone in the skeletal muscle of normal fasted young men with only 5 days of administration. However, an individual is only postabsorptive for part of the day. The overall effectiveness of oxandrolone is thus dependent on the response during food intake as well. We, as well as others, have shown that increased availability of amino acids is a primary stimulus for muscle anabolism in the fed state. Data from our own studies in both young (8) and elderly (17) volunteers indicate that the stimulation of inward amino acid transport to the leg is the mechanism whereby the intravenous infusion of amino acids stimulates net muscle protein synthesis (8, 17). In agreement with our previous findings (8, 17), results from the present study indicate that protein synthesis efficiency did not change during amino acid infusion in the fasted state. In combination, these results identify amino acid availability as the rate-limiting factor in muscle protein synthesis in the fasted state. In contrast to the action of amino acids, anabolic hormones such as insulin (6), testosterone (11), and oxandrolone (15) INCREASE THE EFFICIENCY OF PROTEIN SYNTHESIS WHILE NOT AFFECTING AMINO ACID AVAILABILITY.

Several investigations have examined the in vivo response of skeletal muscle to insulin by utilizing the arteriovenous balance method (1, 6, 10, 12, 22). From these results, we can deduce that, whereas insulin has the potential to stimulate muscle protein synthesis, this can only be reflected in an increased rate of synthesis if an adequate availability of amino acids is maintained. Thus systematically administered insulin can only stimulate muscle protein synthesis if amino acids are administered simultaneously. IN CONTRAST, THE STIMULATION OF MUSCLE PROTEIN SYNTHESIS BY OXANDROLONE DOES NOT REQUIRE EXOGENOUS AMINO ACIDS (15)………. "


TESTOSTERONE INJECTION STIMULATES NET PROTEIN SYNTHESIS BUT NOT TISSUE AMINO ACID TRANSPORT.
Ferrando AA, Tipton KD, Doyle D, Phillips SM, Cortiella J, Wolfe RR.
.
Testosterone administration (T) increases lean body mass and muscle protein synthesis. We investigated the effects of short-term T on leg muscle protein kinetics and transport of selected amino acids by use of a model based on arteriovenous sampling and muscle biopsy. Fractional synthesis (FSR) and breakdown (FBR) rates of skeletal muscle protein were also directly calculated. Seven healthy men were studied before and 5 days after intramuscular injection of 200 mg of testosterone enanthate. Protein synthesis increased
twofold after injection , whereas protein breakdown was unchanged. FSR and FBR calculations were in accordance, because FSR increased twofold without a concomitant change in FBR. Net balance between synthesis and breakdown became more positive with both methodologies and was not different from zero. T injection increased arteriovenous essential and nonessential nitrogen balance across the LEG IN THE FASTED STATE, WITHOUT INCREASING AMINO ACID TRANSPORT. Thus T ADMINISTRATION LEADS TO AN INCREASED NET PROTEIN SYNTHESIS AND REUTILIZATION OF INTRACELLULAR AMINO ACIDS IN SKELETAL MUSCLE.

In both cases (and in total agreement with all of the other research done in livestock and burned or sick humans) these researchers conclude in no uncertain terms that the administration of androgens leads to an increase in efficiency of amino acid uptake via recycling and reduced protein breakdown, and that additional amino acids (above what a 'natty' needs for good anabolism) are not required for this increased anabolism. Realgains, your statement that you have not (and apparently would not) try any other approach to mass gains while on AAS was exactly what I was referring to when I said I have never tried it on a juicing male. The idea that you need grossly large amounts of protein 24/7/365 is so deeply ingrained in your psyche that you would not believe me even if I presented a study that involved 6000 young males on 2 grams of gear a week for 16 weeks that showed otherwise. You would find holes in the research to support your beliefs IMHO. Bottom line, just to reiterate, is that large amounts of protein will work. It is one way to achieve your goals. I merely assert that they are not necessary and that there are some viable alternatives that might even get you BETTER mass gains (on or off cycle). It works in females which is all that really matters to this board.

 

[MR. BMJ]

There's a lot of good info in this thread, and I thought it would be cool to bust it out of the darkness of the dreaded archives....

Plus, there is a thread on the anabolic board, and it might be a good read for some of them.

BMJ

 

[manny78]

Amazing. No offence to Bill Roberts or anyone but the guy needs to go out a bit or maybe spend a day at Pelican's Bay prison and see if people really need huge protein intake.

I used to think this way. Till one day, cause of my job I had to go to a federal prison. I thought for a second I was in some kind of hardcore gym. AT least 1/3 of the inmates had a decent shape. Many of them were truly impressive. No juice, no protein powder. Barely 80 g of protein ED, with cheap carbs. But intense training. No fancy machines or overpaid PT, just the basic stuff. I guess the word genetic means something no ?

 

[jet]

RE protein intake and kidney damage-

When kidneys are working well, the glomeruli keep protein inside your body. High blood sugar and high blood pressure damage the kidneys’ glomeruli. Diabetes is often associated with high blood pressure and high blood sugar. When the kidneys are damaged, the protein leaks out of the kidneys into the urine. Damaged kidneys do not do a good job of cleaning out waste and extra fluids. So not enough waste and fluids go out of the body as urine. Instead, they build up in your blood. This is a bad thing. Your husband may or may not already have some of these problems. Some times it's hard to tell if a doc tells you to reduce protein BECAUSE there's already some kidney damage/blood pressure/blood sugar problems, or if they're just being cautious and trying to head off problems before they start. Whatever the reason, it doesn't really have any bearing on how much protein someone with healthy kidneys can safely eat. Just make sure you always drink plenty of clean, fresh water when you're eating high protein, and always keep you blood sugar and blood pressure at a healthy level!!

As for getting fat by substituting carbs for protein, just remember calories in/calories out. If you want to be really anal about it, you can cut your carb calories back by~10-15% to compensate for the difference in diet induced thermogenesis you get from the equivalent protein intake. And of course, keep your carbs low GI! You're also allowed to increase fat.

Ms. I know this is an old post but I have a question for you on Kidney / creatanine (sp) levels.

My Doc tells me that normal range is 1.0 to 1.4. After a test/var ( BTG and TT) my levels were at 1.6...they have since gone down to 1.3

My question is do you think is was from the AAS or the increased protien intake during my cycle. My intake was about 250g's per day. I'm 41... 5'5" 180...10%bf

thanks

 

[NubianBeauty]

Why is that Lobo?

 

[manny78]

Manny, I would wager that most all of the lifters in the jail would have higher Test levels than normal - much higher.

probably. Maybe something like 10-20% more but still I dont think this would make such a big difference.

 

[wilson6]

Jet,

Are you taking creatine?

I run a BUN of up to 35 and creatinine of 1.7. If I cut creatine and protein supplements for 48 hrs., BUN drops to 25 and creatine to 1.3. Hydration is key as well.

Diet and training will cause some of the common renal and hepatic blood measures to jump all over. If your doc doesn't understand this, then they assume kidney and liver problems. As a physician, you CANNOT interpret standard chem profiles on lifters the same way you do sedentary normal populations.

Regarding inmates, their T may be higher, but its the aromatization to high levels of E that got them there.

W6

 

[w84me]

MS quote "I strongly believe that the timing and cycling of your protein"

I understand getting protein back in your system as quickly as you can after workout - - I even see people drinking protein drinks during workouts - - what other "timing" can you detail?

I have always understood that every 2 to 2-1/2 hours we should consume protein w/amino acids. If there is a better timing suggestion - please share.

 

[epimetheus]

I have always understood that every 2 to 2-1/2 hours we should consume protein w/amino acids. If there is a better timing suggestion - please share.

Protein is amino acids.

 

[leancuisine]

MS........

you mentioned 90g proteins....

sure, but what about for the other 3 meals?