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- Thread starter RADAR
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Really? How does that work?
To everything there is a season!
Yes, I think there is definitely a role for high rep lower weight stuff. Best when rotated with higher weight programming.
You love to stir the pot, Radar
Yes, I think there is definitely a role for high rep lower weight stuff. Best when rotated with higher weight programming.
You love to stir the pot, Radar
jcmbbfuture
New member
It really depends. Higher/longer repetitions (especially focusing on the negative) can cause more sarcoplasmic growth and give one that nice full look. However, nothing stimulates the myofibril portion of the muscle like heavy weights and lower reps. Those types of reps give that dense hard look. Its good to get a combo of the two so that one can have that complete physique.
You also have to take into consideration what works best for u. Athletes such as Phil heath can grow like crazy just off sarcoplasmic stimulation. Others such as mike mentzer had the disposition to grow huge amounts off myofibril stimulation. (Hence his heavy duty HIT training) Different strokes for different folks!
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You also have to take into consideration what works best for u. Athletes such as Phil heath can grow like crazy just off sarcoplasmic stimulation. Others such as mike mentzer had the disposition to grow huge amounts off myofibril stimulation. (Hence his heavy duty HIT training) Different strokes for different folks!
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jcmbbfuture
New member
It really depends. Some grow off higher reps because they respond greater to sarcoplasmic stimulation. (Phil heath) Most of these athletes have that nice full, round look. Others have the disposition to grow better off of myofibril stimulation. (Mike mentzer) Most of these athletes have that hard dense look. You just have to figure your body out and the look you want!
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jcmbbfuture
New member
Sorry for the double post. Phone messed up!
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Yeah that rings a bell, I remember reading an article a whole back about "load time" where they reckoned the amount of time a muscle is supporting a load has an effect on development. I don't remember everything but the idea seemed to be you could push a relatively light weight really slowly and get comparable strength/mass gains..
big weight, small reps work your white muscle fibers...
smaller weight, larger reps work your red muscle fibers.
some of these big lugs at the gym who can nail 450 on the bench once or twice, they struggle doing 225 many times.
now some of us are born with better red muscle fibers and some are born with better white muscle fibers. you probably figured out at some point that you were better as a powerlifter than bb or vice versa. some guys are good at both, some guys suck at both.
however if you work at it you can improve your red or white muscle fibers to a certain extent.
its the same thing with runners. sprinters look very different than marathon runners for a good reason. one is working reds, one is working whites. Manut Bol is fast, but he would struggle running long distance (not saying he could accomplish it but saying he wouldn't get a great time).. he just hasn't trained for that first off, and secondly he probably is genetically made for sprinting.... a long distance Kenyan runner meanwhile would be faster than most doing 400 meters but he wouldn't be as fast as these other guys.
smaller weight, larger reps work your red muscle fibers.
some of these big lugs at the gym who can nail 450 on the bench once or twice, they struggle doing 225 many times.
now some of us are born with better red muscle fibers and some are born with better white muscle fibers. you probably figured out at some point that you were better as a powerlifter than bb or vice versa. some guys are good at both, some guys suck at both.
however if you work at it you can improve your red or white muscle fibers to a certain extent.
its the same thing with runners. sprinters look very different than marathon runners for a good reason. one is working reds, one is working whites. Manut Bol is fast, but he would struggle running long distance (not saying he could accomplish it but saying he wouldn't get a great time).. he just hasn't trained for that first off, and secondly he probably is genetically made for sprinting.... a long distance Kenyan runner meanwhile would be faster than most doing 400 meters but he wouldn't be as fast as these other guys.
I certainly saw better recovery and tissue gains when I started doing low weight high rep sets at the end of my workout. Up to 15 reps for isolation exercises.
There is some science that says these types of workouts are better for protein synthesis as well,
PLoS ONE: Low-Load High Volume Resistance Exercise Stimulates Muscle Protein Synthesis More Than High-Load Low Volume Resistance Exercise in Young Men
But doing ONE or the OTHER is silly. It's like focusing only on the flat bench when you have so many exercise options.
There is some science that says these types of workouts are better for protein synthesis as well,
PLoS ONE: Low-Load High Volume Resistance Exercise Stimulates Muscle Protein Synthesis More Than High-Load Low Volume Resistance Exercise in Young Men
But doing ONE or the OTHER is silly. It's like focusing only on the flat bench when you have so many exercise options.
jcmbbfuture
New member
Yeah. Another way to put it is "time under tension" Ultimately more time under tension equals more sarcoplasmic stimulation. (To a certain degree) You can manipulate rep speed to make six reps equal the same amount of time it takes another person to do ten or twelve. On the other side, just because someone is doing more reps than u doesn't mean they are getting more stimulation if your muscles are experiencing more time under tension during your set.
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I like to start out heavy, then go lighter. so i agree both are good. but if you go heavy if you are not doing the exercise correctly then its pointless which is what happens a lot of the time.
just throwing a couple reps of heavy weight around is one thing.. but getting in a solid workout ripping up your muscle fibers is another
Ok let me ask this. What about lifting heavy weights for alot of reps? My body seems to respond best to high volume routines going up to say 85% of max. Pyramid style. And I keep most of my rep ranges anywhere from 10 to 15 depending on the exercise. I think too often we try and disect this and that. Lift heavy shit alot of times and you will grow. With proper form of course and heavy being relative to the individual.
Opposite to common sense, the type of muscle built by bodybuilders isn't the strongest. Type 2a muscle fiber is the most massive which is why bodybuilders "choose" that type (via their training)
From wikipedia. Notice High amounts of type 2b found in bodybuilders is "short term anaerobic"
If you want to be a bodybuilder, lift in sets of 5-10 and do plenty of sets (as this creates type 2a).
Sherk
New member
My shoulders responded very well to radars post. I use to lift heavy with my shoulders and got reasonable results but still wasn't happy. I felt they still lagged compared to the rest of my body. I switched to light weight high rep for 7-8 sets per exercise. My shoulders blew up with that routine.
jcmbbfuture
New member
I like this outlook and for me it works. You get the best of both worlds. Lots of forced reps and drop sets help complete the muscular onslaught. Branch warren style powerbuilding! I love it!
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Opposite to common sense, the type of muscle built by bodybuilders isn't the strongest. Type 2a muscle fiber is the most massive which is why bodybuilders "choose" that type (via their training)
From wikipedia. Notice High amounts of type 2b found in bodybuilders is "short term anaerobic"
If you want to be a bodybuilder, lift in sets of 5-10 and do plenty of sets (as this creates type 2a).
the thing is we don't know what muscle fibers we have genetically unless we were to do an autopsy.
Naturally (people with no lifting experience) are like the control in the chart. Lots of type 2b. So when they need the muscle, its strong, but its not used very often.
Training changes what type of muscle fibers a person has. Lots of volume makes type 2a. Versus low volume, heavy weight makes type 2x and or 2b.
like i said above in my 1st or 2nd post in this thread YES you can improve your red or white muscle fibers by working them. however people are born with certain genetics which mean they will have an advantage with either
if you were born with tremendous white muscle fibers. but you only train red muscle fibers you might still be a great bodybuilder, but had you focused on powerlifting you could of been something more special for example.
genetics is definately a huge factor. a guy like Arnold or Samir Bannout have tremendous red muscle fibers, and they were able to take advantage of that. had they decided to become powerlifters they would of done good I'm sure, but they wouldn't of been champions like they were with Mr Olympia.
I like this thread a lot.. lets keep it going.. look what you did Radar just from a simple title lol.
jcmbbfuture
New member
I agree. Genetics play a huge role. Some studies have shown that many Olympic lifters and sprinters have more than 80% fast twitch muscle fiber make up. That is huge. This explains their power and explosion. Distance athletes are on the opposite end of the spectrum. There is even a big difference in muscle fiber make up within our own bodies. (Hence the reason some muscle groups respond to volume while others need heavy weight)
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I've always used the "If you can lift, then lift..." theory and it's worked for me...I hate lifting light unless I'm injured...
faster explosive works too, but the chances of hurting yourself doing that is probably higher than going heavy (with good form)
rich_89
New member
I laugh when i see big bubbs in the gym loading 400lb on the bench, but then hardly any movement down towards the chest. Whats the point. more muscle building having a wank.
Then i take 200lb off and do 15 clean reps all the way down. Which is better i ask you???
thecompound
Pro Bodybuilder
I like the way this is goin, good stuff from steve, and I agree with past posts. I do 2 plates per side on hack squat, 3 sets, 12-15 reps after main squat. I go down all the way in a deep squat and really have some of the best pumps/gains by putting form and isolation over trying to look cool. The next kid comes along with stick legs, throws 4 plates on, and bounces up and down 2 inches 4 times. Difference is i am achieving, he is wasting time. As a side topic, on a new workout that a bud showed me so i gave it a try. The Layne Norton PHAT program, which is kind of what radar is talking about and past posts were. It stimulates white muscle for 2 days, then red for 3. First two days upper lower power, rest then hypertrophy for the next 3 days (more reps). I am loving it, any body in the same boat?
good point... anyone can find this out on their own by connecting a heart rate monitor around their bodies while they workout. they sell Garman watches that will track your heart rates so anybody can try it out themselves to see what really pushes the body over the edge.
I'm not anti-heavy weight at all, i'm anti doing heavy weight when your technique sucks.
thelocal
Banned
Same here when I'm lifting light I look over my shoulder she a girl working out and think.."am I lifting bitch weight? " then u go back to heavy. Only thing I really go for reps on is shoulders
NO PAIN NO GLORY!
The Bavarian Creamer
New member
There's a lot of good information in this thread, and I don't necessarily disagree with anything that's been said, but just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents. It's true that everyone is composed of differing proportions of different muscle fiber types, and with that said to maximize growth one must stimulate each and every type of muscle fiber with a wide array of weights and rep ranges. As a side note, in my experience training with moderate weight logically is the best way to go (GENERALLY THINKING). Think of it as a numbers game; I can squat 455 x 3 = 1365 lbs, or I can squat 225 x 30 = 6750 lbs, or I can squat 315 x 20 = 6300 lbs! That's almost 5 times as much weight that I've squatted using a lighter weight and higher rep range, but with that said remember that to fully stimulate the muscle one needs to use light, heavy, and moderate weights. Personally, I like to slowly work my way up to my working weight using low reps as to warm, but not pre-fatigue the muscle, then go heavy with my strongest compound movements, then work with moderate weights and finish with lighter weight to maximize the pump.
rich_89
New member
I use the machines to warm up. So i do leg press to warm up, then do squats properly to destroy my legs. Im on the sofa now and i wont be moving for a while lol. Aching like fuck.
What i was saying earlier (about bubbs loading up the equipment with too much weight and having dog form) happened tonight! I thought about this thread and laughed. He loaded the squat bar up with 500lb (220kg for UK bros) I could not believe it (any of you guys squat that with good form?). I watched discreetly, and his form was just. . well a fucking disgrace. His back was like a fucking question mark. Fucking idiot is going to do himself a serious injry. My form was perfect after him of course, but only half that weight. Which would you prefer to do??? It's not a competition!
What i was saying earlier (about bubbs loading up the equipment with too much weight and having dog form) happened tonight! I thought about this thread and laughed. He loaded the squat bar up with 500lb (220kg for UK bros) I could not believe it (any of you guys squat that with good form?). I watched discreetly, and his form was just. . well a fucking disgrace. His back was like a fucking question mark. Fucking idiot is going to do himself a serious injry. My form was perfect after him of course, but only half that weight. Which would you prefer to do??? It's not a competition!
jcmbbfuture
New member
I think that proper and strict form is a bit overrated. Now let me explain. The more important aspect of training is the mind/muscle connection. How many of u have seen guys in the gym with great form on x exercise and can lift x amount of weight but still has a poorly developed x muscle? That is because even though they have correct form they lack the neuromuscular connection. Now proper form is intended to help create that connection for sure but it is something that takes time and experience. That is why an experienced gym rat can get more out of partial movements than a noob using perfect form.
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rich_89
New member
I can see your point and know what you're saying, but i'm not convinced. I know that you can get too fussy about form, but generally, it's essential to maintain a good form throughout a set, maybe a slight strain and lax in form on the last 1 or 2 reps.
jcmbbfuture
New member
I agree that form is important and should be maintained as much as possible but sometimes it is just over emphasized for the sake of "using perfect form is the right thing to do." Perfect form with no connection is useless. Just as useless as crappy form with no connection. Ha ha. (From a muscle building and not safety aspect)
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agreed... keeping in mind that form does break down somewhat as you approach your max, if you keep your technique in mind (which is different than form) then your sets remain productive...
i can still get a MASSIVE pump on a 3 rep set of squats; said its all the mind-muscle connection...
Just like Omega preaches. It definatley works. And it hurts. When I can go full speed again (hopefully starting tonight!!!!!) I will be working each part 2x wk. Once light with high set/reps once heavier in the 8-10 rep range.
I OCD about my split so goddamn bad it seems the only way.
On your note radar....a 19 yr old kid (skinny) was asking me (whilst mid cycle and I was 275 lb) what he could do better. He was doing wide grip pull downs. trying for all his worth to do 200 lb. I was only using 140. I said try going half the weight and half the speed and dont lock out. I explained why to him then he cocked his head like a dog hearing a dog whistle and went on about floundering. ....god i hate people.
RADAR
Well-known member
lol.! some people have no clue
its a science not a competition to see how much you can lift, swallow your pride ,even the Pro's are seen doing 45'lb curls!
^^^^^^^^^ This! We are bodybuilders. Not powerlifters. The amount of weight we are lifting is not important. The results of said weight lifting are what matters. Unless you are like Moya and a couple of others on here who are competing in power lifting. Well he's probably not the best example cause dude looks great to. I think you get the point though. Lol
^i would say a lot it is in my mind-muscle connection... i can get a massive pump doing just singles and triples, i know most bodies dont work that way though...
i do still use higher reps on my 'aesthetic' lifts... 8 reps is high reps, right?
edit: also i believe strongly in the fact that as your body begins lift heavier weights it will grow to accomodate them...
i do still use higher reps on my 'aesthetic' lifts... 8 reps is high reps, right?
edit: also i believe strongly in the fact that as your body begins lift heavier weights it will grow to accomodate them...
gatemoney
Banned
LMAO typical
Heavy buils the bigger white fiber muscles, higher rep builds the smaller red fibers.
What people fail to realize is that not everyone has mostly white fibers. If you're mostly made up from red, then higher rep training will build more muscle. High rep work also increases mitochondria, which in turn builds more muscle.
What people fail to realize is that not everyone has mostly white fibers. If you're mostly made up from red, then higher rep training will build more muscle. High rep work also increases mitochondria, which in turn builds more muscle.
