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zero tolerance is out of control

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Students punished for snorting Kool-Aid


Have 'zero tolerance' rules gone insane?

By the Libertarian Party.

April 12, 2000.

Washington, D.C. -- A public school that suspended students for snorting Kool-Aid -- that's right; snorting Kool-Aid! -- shows that "zero tolerance" policies have gone too far, the Libertarian Party said today.

"Zero tolerance has become infinitely ridiculous," said Steve Dasbach, the party's national director. "Unless school officials thought they had to act fast before students start smoking Tang or mainlining Hawaiian Punch, then suspending students for abusing Kool-Aid seems to be a classic case of zero tolerance nonsense.

"Like so much of what government schools do, most zero tolerance policies display zero common sense, zero benefits, and zero effectiveness."

This week, the O.T. Bonner Middle School in Danville, Virginia, suspended eight students for one week after they were caught sniffing Kool-Aid.

The seventh- and eighth-grade students were charged with "possession of contraband" because they were "using Kool-Aid in a way that imitated the use of illegal drugs," school officials explained.

The students got off easy: They could have been suspended for a year on the charge of "using a look-alike drug."

But any government school bureaucrat who thinks the brightly colored, sugary, powdered drink mix is "a look-alike drug" -- or even "contraband" -- must have, well, gone to a government school, said Dasbach.

"This is your brain; this is a public school bureaucrat's brain on Kool-Aid," he said. "When school officials think that cracking down on powdered drink mix abuse is more important than educating students, then there is zero hope for the public education system."

But the "War on Kool-Aid" isn't the only example of zero-tolerance policies gone berserk, said Dasbach. Over the past year...

* A school in New Jersey suspended two kindergarten students after they played "cops and robbers" on the playground, pointed their fingers at each other like guns, and shouted "bang bang!"

* A school in Maryland suspended a student after he drew a crude picture of a gun on a piece of paper. The nine-year-old was charged with violating the school's anti-weapon policy.

* A school in Kansas suspended a seventh-grader for three days after he drew a picture of a confederate flag. The flag, said officials, violated the school's policy against "racially divisive" material.

* A school in Michigan flagged a sixth-grader as a potential violence risk -- and told his parents they had to meet with the school's "Hazard and Risk Assessment Team" -- after he suggested that one way to prevent school shootings would be to allow teachers to carry guns.

* A school in Minnesota refused to allow a high school senior who had enlisted in the Army to pose for a yearbook picture sitting atop a World War II howitzer at the local Veterans of Foreign Wars post. The photo would violate the school's anti-weapon policy, said officials.

Libertarians don't object to zero tolerance policies on principle, said Dasbach -- only to the arbitrary way they are implemented and enforced by government schools.

"Many private schools also have strict rules against violence and inappropriate behavior," he noted. "The difference is that private schools can compete on the basis of effective discipline, and parents have the choice of sending their children to a school that offers the kind of regulatory structure they want.

"On the other hand, parents whose children are trapped in government schools don't have that choice. They must settle for whatever ridiculous rules local public school bureaucrats implement. And parents are then forced to pay taxes to support that school, even if they strongly object to its silly zero tolerance policies."

Until parents have real educational freedom and can use their own money to send their children to the non-governmental school of their choice, Dasbach said he has a solution to the "zero tolerance" madness.

"If these actions for which government schools are punishing students are a real danger, let's have the rest of the government treat them as real, too.

"For example, let's have the DEA start doing drug tests for Kool-Aid addiction. Let's have the Secret Service defend the president by pointing their fingers at potential assassins and shouting, 'Bang, bang!' And let's send the U.S. military to Kosovo with photographs of howitzers and a drawing of a gun," he said.

"Of course, that's ridiculous -- but no more ridiculous than the zero tolerance policies that government schools are inflicting on American children. That's why it's time for a zero tolerance policy about loony zero tolerance policies."
 
yeah, George Will had a commentary on this very subject this morning on "This Week with Sam and Cokie."

that's what happens when people make rules and regulations that are too rigid and leave no gray area. Another example, would be the California 3 strikes you're out law, which has people serving life sentences for crimes such as shoplifting.

these ironclad laws and rules leave judges and others who enforce them without wiggle room.
 
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agreed. there needs to be some gray area.

ryan, are these rules made by conservs or libs? just curious? not trying to get into a political debate just getting some enlightenment.
 
this kind of policy is more conservative than it is liberal...this is the biggest qualm i have with being a conservative.
 
Sushi X said:
agreed. there needs to be some gray area.

ryan, are these rules made by conservs or libs? just curious? not trying to get into a political debate just getting some enlightenment.

honestly, it's more conservatives. It's really an effort by legislators to control the judicary and school officials. If legislators write more relaxed laws, they are afraid that judges will be too soft on crime. It's their response to liberal judges.
 
RyanH said:
which has people serving life sentences for crimes such as shoplifting.


Actually I think this is a good idea. Perhaps my rose colored glasses are on crooked, but I think that if you get caught doing a crime twice, the punishment should be more severe than the first time. after 3 times, Life, since you don't want to change.

Don't steal!!
Don't Kill!!
Its not hard people.


Now they just need Zero tolerance driving laws. Get some of those Idiot drivers off the road. (ok, maybe not Zero tolerance)
 
epimetheus said:



Actually I think this is a good idea. Perhaps my rose colored glasses are on crooked, but I think that if you get caught doing a crime twice, the punishment should be more severe than the first time. after 3 times, Life, since you don't want to change.

Don't steal!!
Don't Kill!!
Its not hard people.


Now they just need Zero tolerance driving laws. Get some of those Idiot drivers off the road. (ok, maybe not Zero tolerance)

so you want to pay for life-sentences for prisoners who got busted for shit as benign as smoking pot or shoplifting? If you complain about taxes, then you should cut down on government expenditures. Can't have it both ways.
 
I don't complain about taxes. Don't think I ever have.

IMOU (In my own universe), The prisons would have the thiefs and tax evaders(and such) in it, yes. They would not have the murderers and rapists (i.e serious criminals) for they would be executed. There are ways to cut down on prices of prisons. I would rather have my taxes pay for them to be locked away eating grits and pooping in a can than have my fucking televion cost 100 dollars more because they get stolen alot.
 
RyanH said:
that's what happens when people make rules and regulations that are too rigid and leave no gray area.

Cool - we agree.

RyanH said:
Another example, would be the California 3 strikes you're out law, which has people serving life sentences for crimes such as shoplifting.

Not surprisingly, I don't agree. A crime is a crime. Shoplifting 3 times, and being caught? You realize that criminals don't always get caught, right? That means that the 3x shoplifter has probably shoplifted many times before. People like this obviously cannot function in society, and should not have the freedom to do so.

-Warik
 
Warik said:


Not surprisingly, I don't agree. A crime is a crime. Shoplifting 3 times, and being caught? You realize that criminals don't always get caught, right? That means that the 3x shoplifter has probably shoplifted many times before. People like this obviously cannot function in society, and should not have the freedom to do so.

-Warik


Actually it doesn't work like that. If you commit 2 violent felonies, you can get a 25 to life sentence for any 3rd crime, violent or non, felony or misdemeanor. Many judges & prosecutors do not wish to send people to jail for life for stealing batteries so they don't always invoke it.
 
nordstrom said:



Actually it doesn't work like that. If you commit 2 violent felonies, you can get a 25 to life sentence for any 3rd crime, violent or non, felony or misdemeanor. Many judges & prosecutors do not wish to send people to jail for life for stealing batteries so they don't always invoke it.

I think that's wrong.

1 violent felony should be enough for 25 to life. Now they get 3 chances? Now I know why they call it "criminal justice" - criminals are the only ones who get any justice.

-Warik
 
Warik said:


I think that's wrong.

1 violent felony should be enough for 25 to life. Now they get 3 chances? Now I know why they call it "criminal justice" - criminals are the only ones who get any justice.

-Warik

AGREE COMPLETELY
 
Warik said:


Now I know why they call it "criminal justice" - criminals are the only ones who get any justice.


right. just ask any prisoner wrongfully awaiting death row.
 
This country is going to "politically correct" itself to death.

I think that when a case such as any of those is identified, it should be brought up to a jury of peers who can then decide which party should be slapped up w/ a "Stupid" sign.

In the case of snorting Kool-aid, both sides should get a "Stupid" sign. Why the FUCK would u snork Kool-aid?? Has life become that slow that glue isn't exciting enough??? Jeez. I guess this is Darwin's theory of "natural selection" at work. Great concept! Its self-correcting!
 
in a DARE presentation in school I snorted flour. with friends I snorted Fun Dips. flour == headache. Fun Dips == headache, AND bloody nose
 
The Nature Boy said:
are fun dips the same as Lick a Stick?

probably. there is a white stick of pure, unadulterated bleached sugar, pressed into solid wonderfulness. there might actually be two of those.
then there are three pouches of colored sugar, each with a synthetic flavor that vaguely matches their color.

I could eat like 10 of those and then just lay back in an insulin schock induced coma and drool my way to heaven.
 
The Nature Boy said:
yes!!! that was it.

Have you ever had pixie sticks? they're these little paper/cardboard tubes filled with flavored sugar.

pixie stix were a sign that the person had a real problem. when the dude was hiding them in his pockets, and he'd resort to using them during class or on the way home as a quick pick me up. they'd begin to rely on them more and more, maybe starting to use two stix at the same time to get more of a kick b/c one just didn't do it anymore.
they could describe the way it tasted via an elaborate color scheme that only those in the know really understood.

that shit was hardcore.
 
RyanH said:
right. just ask any prisoner wrongfully awaiting death row.

Or any free man who has killed another.

I don't believe in the death penalty, but unfortunately, it's a necessary evil due to the lack of consistency with prison sentences.

A man goes to jail for crime X, is sentenced to 25 years, and is out on parole in 5? Did I miss something? If he's in prison for 25 years because he did something wrong, why is he out in 5 for behaving good in prison? He's supposed to behave good in society, which he obviously cannot, hence the reason he belongs there for 20 more years. If they had put a bullet in his head instead, we wouldn't have this problem of him most likely committing another crime.

-Warik
 
nordstrom said:



Actually it doesn't work like that. If you commit 2 violent felonies, you can get a 25 to life sentence for any 3rd crime, violent or non, felony or misdemeanor. Many judges & prosecutors do not wish to send people to jail for life for stealing batteries so they don't always invoke it.

So really the long jail sentence is for committing violent crime and not being capable of learning your lesson........seems fair enough to me.
 
RyanH said:


that's what happens when people make rules and regulations that are too rigid and leave no gray area. Another example, would be the California 3 strikes you're out law, which has people serving life sentences for crimes such as shoplifting.

I'm not an expert on US Constitution law but I'm pretty sure someone would have a case with that. In Canada this would be unconstitutional on the basis of "cruel punishment".......
 
Imnotdutch said:


So really the long jail sentence is for committing violent crime and not being capable of learning your lesson........seems fair enough to me.

That may seem fair enough to many people and I understand that. But in the case of three strikes type laws, legislators are making sentencing decisions from the comfort of their state senate and house floors.

We have a judicial system for a reason. Maybe the judge in the shoplifting case would have thrown the offender in prison for life anyway, but I'm more comfortable with that person rendering a decision on a case-by-case basis than legislators putting themselves on the bench.
 
this has nothing to do with conservatives or liberals -- this is about one thing: lawyers. zero-tolerance is a result of legal liability, an effort to ward off multimillion-dollar negligence awards.

kid points finger at another and says "bang," or sniffs koolaid - if that kid later shoots someone or OD's on real coke, you can bet there will be a lawsuit filed before the barrel cools, against the school, school board, principal, teacher, the city, the state, etc. - alleging the school knew about the problem and didn't do enough to stop it. juries don't care - it's not their money, and it's coming from the state, so why not? you've all read the stories about ridiculous jury awards - NYC alone pays hundreds of millions a year in liablility awards.

zero-tolerance is obviously ridiculous - but all it takes is a single $100 million jury award to destroy the school budget and the lives/careers of a lot of teachers and administrators - when you balance that against expelling a kid for no reason, its a no-brainer: cover your ass...
 
Imnotdutch said:


So really the long jail sentence is for committing violent crime and not being capable of learning your lesson........seems fair enough to me.


no, i'm pretty sure most people sentenced under '3 strikes' are guilty of non-violent crimes like burglary.


Besides, even prosecutors, who are basically blood thirsty sharks in business suits, sometimes choose not to invoke 3 strikes because they consider it inhumane.

here in indiana, we have a 3 strikes law, but it only applies to violent crimes (not dealing drugs or burglary), and is invoked voluntarily.
 
Warik said:


Or any free man who has killed another.

I don't believe in the death penalty, but unfortunately, it's a necessary evil due to the lack of consistency with prison sentences.

A man goes to jail for crime X, is sentenced to 25 years, and is out on parole in 5? Did I miss something? If he's in prison for 25 years because he did something wrong, why is he out in 5 for behaving good in prison? He's supposed to behave good in society, which he obviously cannot, hence the reason he belongs there for 20 more years. If they had put a bullet in his head instead, we wouldn't have this problem of him most likely committing another crime.

-Warik

MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY. I DO NOT LIKE THE DEATH PENALTY EITHER, SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN EXONERATED YEARS LATER. LOOK AT ILLINOIS FOR INSTANCE. ITS QUITE FRIGHTENING.

HOWEVER, THE PRISON SYSTEM NEEDS REAL REFORM. YOU GET PUT AWAY FOR XXX YEARS, YOU SHOULD FUCKING STAY PUT AWAY FOR THAT LONG. AND IF YOU BEHAVE BADLY, YOU STAY LONGER.

NOT TOO MENTION, SENTENCES FOR FELONIES AND SHIT ARE TOO LIGHT.
 
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