Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
napsgear
genezapharmateuticals
domestic-supply
puritysourcelabs
UGL OZ
UGFREAK
napsgeargenezapharmateuticals domestic-supplypuritysourcelabsUGL OZUGFREAK

You DO need to do inner thigh work!!

Gladiola

Gladiola

New member
On my aerobics instructor bulletin board - someone posted about those inner/outter thigh machines. I wrote what I've often read here - inner & outter thigh get work as stabilizers during your lunges & squats so don't bother - you don't need to.

My Master-degreed exercise physiologist & physical therapist friend came back with the following:
:worried: There are just too many damn things to do! :mad:

The hip abductors and adductors are NOT just stabilizers, nor is their primary function that of a stabilizer! And, they need exercise targeted specifically at their actions, rather than just being worked incidentally in exercises where they are being called upon only to be an assistor or stabilizer.

The primary hip abductor, the gluteus medius, is very important in single leg stance, activities and sports involving lateral motion, and gait. The reason you see all knee patients (and most hip and low back patients as well) doing hip abduction and adduction is due to the vital role these muscles play as prime movers in everyday activity. Gluteus medius weakness causes all sorts of knee, hip and low back problems. Weakness of the adductor group can result in groin strains, adaptive shortening of the abductors due to inadequate opposition, and gait difficulty.

The squat is a great exercise for most every lower body muscle group, but a lower body program that includes plain ol' free weight back squats only isn't enough. Either specific isolation exercises for the hip abductors and adductors need to be
included and/or other compound exercises such as single leg squats (aka lunges) where the pelvis is kept level throughout the exercise, lateral (aka sidestep lunges), or crossover (aka Bugs Bunny) lunges have to be included to target the gluteus medius and minimus.

A sure fire way to practically guarantee muscle imbalances, pain and problems is to neglect to train all major muscle groups
through their full range of motion.
Click to expand...
 
spatterson said:
This is why, at the asylum, we train squats with tension bands wrapped around our knees until those muscles are strong.
Click to expand...
But that still seems to me like you are working them isometrically rather than strength training them through concentric & eccentric against resistance. I posted back to my friend asking what she recommends I add to leg day & what she does herself.

Not sure if you've ever seen someone max out a dead
Click to expand...
Um, no. The retirees at the tennis club don't do that. :lmao: Actually I've almost never seen anyone dl AT ALL let alone max.
 
But Gladiola, it sounds like the physical therapist is agreeing with you that lunges are good for inner/outer thigh. In terms of isolation exercises, is the therapist talking about leg lifts?
 
She also mentioned crossover lunges where you lunge back & at an angle - like a curtsey. I don't know if she means doing this with a barbell on your upper back or not.

I can't see how stationary lunges or even walking lunges do much more for adductors than squats! THere is still no *shortening* of those muscle fibers - so it's still isometric work only.

The aerobics board is moderated - so posts don't pop up immediately. I'm sure I'll hear back from her soon though.
 
Gladiola said:

But that still seems to me like you are working them isometrically rather than strength training them through concentric & eccentric against resistance. I posted back to my friend asking what she recommends I add to leg day & what she does herself.
Click to expand...

Uh...the bands don't work as Isometrics unless you want to. If you just do static holds..then yes it is a form of isometrics...for the record isometrics will make you strong (but only in the position you hold at.

When doing reps with the bands, as you spread your knees apart the Resistance increases on the concentric and decreases on the eccentric. Which in this area I am not sure how well it matches the strength curve or leverage....but it is the best thing. The reason that traditional abductor/adductor machines are not that effective is because the hips are on, or above the knees. In order for you to target the muscles better the hip crease should be several inches below the knees.
 
Spatts -
I'm not saying I think a muscle can't be strengthened with isometrics - MY FRIEND was saying that the isometric work the adductors do as stabilizers in a squat is not sufficient for total adductor training.

Hannibal said:
When doing reps with the bands, as you spread your knees apart the Resistance increases
Click to expand...
:confused: huh? Who is talking about spreading their knees. Do you spread your knees when you squat?
 
Gladiola said:
:confused: huh? Who is talking about spreading their knees. Do you spread your knees when you squat?
Click to expand...

Well I do...but thats cuz I like to lift heavy.

:lmao:
 
Oh my goodness, the more I read, the more I'm convinced I'm clueless & doomed to remain eternally cluless.

Doomed to remain eternally clueless until I keep lifting heavy & end up with debilatating injuries from my cluless heavy lifting. Good grief.

I'm doing chest tonight & still have no freaking idea how to use my lats. I grasp the concept but I don't really know how to flex my lats, so I can't very well utilize them in my bench. I also have no idea how legs are supposed to come into play.

Fuck it all, I'm gonna go be a cardio bunny again.

<<sigh>> Ok, done my temper tantrum.

Spatts, when you say press out - do you mean isometrically, or do your knees really get farther apart?
What is wrong with using your quads to rise, I thought it was a total lower body exercise? (I know, I know, it's supposed to be lots of glute).
 
Spatts Do you think maybe you could post a pic of this pretty pleassssse

Gladiola, if the opportunity ever presents itself, have a seat on a box lower than your hipcrease..say 10 inches high. Double wrap a pink (medium) band above your knees. Then spread you feet as far apart as you can. Now, with your feet in place, bring your knees all the way in then spread them all the way out.
Click to expand...

Thanks CC:angel:
 
Gladiola said:
I'm doing chest tonight & still have no freaking idea how to use my lats. I grasp the concept but I don't really know how to flex my lats, so I can't very well utilize them in my bench. I also have no idea how legs are supposed to come into play.
Click to expand...

To use your lats when you bench...its something you just have to FEEL to understand. Reading it wont do it for you. But here goes. First thing you can do is some lat pulldowns....just so you know what your lats feel like when they are flared out. Then when you are benching have someone do some vibration work.....they should quickly and lightly tap the bar while you are lowering it and raising it....this will cause you to instinctively flex your lats...and you will FEEL what is is supposed to be like.

Another thing that you can do is take a mini band and double it...then put it around your wrists while you bench...this causes you to force your hands out "pull the bar apart" which activates the lats the way you want it.

Band%20between%20arms200.jpg


NOW...using your legs to bench. When you set up to bench...set your legs like you were gonna squat. A very firm base. All your weight should be on your upper back and traps...with your legs driving back...parallel to the floor. The more force you have driving you into the bench...then more force you can transfer into the bar.
 
Last edited:
ok i definitely think my hips aren't as strong as they could/should be. where do i find bands... and doing that when i squat... will that fix the problem or shall i do the abuctor/adductor machines or whatever they're called too..? or is there a better freeweight excercise to do with this?
 
search under the words "box squat" there are pictures of b fold doing it i think, it means your squat down and touch your bum on a box and then come back up.....
 
Hip work should be included into everyones workouts in some form or fashion. I even attach my bands to the bottom of my power rack, loop my ankle through it and do those little kick back, front, and to the inside and outside thingy that I used to see the women do with the fuzzy ankle attachment at the YMCA. Those things really do work to increase your squat, deadlift, and to prevent injuries.

Adding hip work has really helped the way that my hip joints feel after event training. When I wm walking with a 700+lb Super Yoke on my back or trying to run with a pair of 300+lb farmers walks...it helps to have good hip support. I also look at it as good hernia prevention.

Sled dragging is a fun (yuck) way to train your hips too. Check out my thread, with pics, of me doing sled dragging from Thursday.
http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=144767

Those kneeling squats may look funny...but I hear that they really work. Surely that would be an exercise that would impress all the chicks...lol. "Wow...look at the hip power of that guy...he is using 300lbs on kneeling squats...lol". Can't believe I just said that...lol.

B True
 
Last edited:
Yes, that was Cheese's problem too. I had that problem in Boston...but we were carrying a pair of 305's there. Hip strength is what keeps you stepping on the farmers walk...

She just took off way too fast. Must take small steps unless you have ski's for feet like I do...hehe

B True
 
If the videos don't play in your browser, you may have to right-click on the link, and save them to your hard drive.
 
I keep reading about the pitfalls of adding lots of exercises to one's routine. How do you fit these variations (kneeling squat, box squat) into a training schedule? To you just tack them on or swap them out for regular squats on a regular basis (every other week, weekly for a period of time, etc.)? About the band work for the hips - my guess is that this would go on leg day after the compound work - would you do it weekly year-round or only when focusing on building hip strength?
 
Thanks, that answers my question. I'm glad you brought up the diff between BB and PL training -- I'll have to do more reading on that subject and I'm sure elements of it are controversial or touchy. But what you've explained makes sense -- it just varies a LOT from what I'm used to reading about strength training. My guess is that stuff I'm used to reading is informed most by the BB approach.

BTW -- I used to do something like box squats all the time -- they were called "hover squats" though, because you hovered over the box for a few counts before standing or sitting again. MUCH lighter weight than what you're using, though!

I enjoy reading your messages. I'm sure other people here know the answers to the following questions, but I don't. Do you work outside of the home? I've seen some of your progression pics and know that you were an athlete as a teen, but how long have you been strength training?
 
2-3 months? Wow! Were you doing something different before then or were you sedentary (other than running behind the kid)?
 
spatterson said:
From April 2001 until recently (for a year) I trained with a BB trainer.
Click to expand...

And we are still tryin to fix what the trainer did....
 
I think that one of the great things about WSB training is that it evolves...it changes...and it is moldable around it's very broad diagram on how to train. It focuses on weaknesses and making you a better, stronger, all around athlete.

B True
 
spatterson said:
The box squat IS my only squat, and there's no reason for a BB to not box squat, it's just not as popular (and don't ask me why...same reason BB's don't do Active Recovery...who the hell knows). listen your body, and set no limits.
Click to expand...

It's a very dangerous squat, especially for the beginner. The video shows that time is taken before the butt touches the box, but this is usually where beginners or inexperienced lifters make their mistakes. Unlike regular squats, box squats have two forces pushing towards the midline from opposite directions. Regular squats has the weights (and gravity) pushing down, but the box has the weigths pushing down and box pushing up (or stopping the motion). It causes too much pressure on the spine, creating a movement similar to an acordian. I'll dig up my books and cite references for you, but that is one reason I know of.

I think inner thigh work is important. After all, it practically makesk 1/3rd of the upper thigh. My favorite inner thight work is the side lunge.
 
poohbear said:
It's a very dangerous squat, especially for the beginner. The video shows that time is taken before the butt touches the box, but this is usually where beginners or inexperienced lifters make their mistakes. Unlike regular squats, box squats have two forces pushing towards the midline from opposite directions. Regular squats has the weights (and gravity) pushing down, but the box has the weigths pushing down and box pushing up (or stopping the motion). It causes too much pressure on the spine, creating a movement similar to an acordian. I'll dig up my books and cite references for you, but that is one reason I know of.
Click to expand...

A SMITH MACHINE SQUAT is a DANGEROUS SQUAT! A box squat, IF, done correctly is not dangerous. When you box squat right...you sit BACK (not down) far enough that yoru shins are past vertical...this takes all the pressure off the patella tendon. And overloads the hips, glutes and hamstrings...the prime movers of a BIG squat.

Also you SIT on the box...you dont FALL on the box. If a beginner cannot control the eccentric portion of the lift then we have them use a higher box until there hamstrings are brought up. When on the box...you keep everything tight...you relax the hip flexors and then reflex them. "This will cause the spinal erectors to instantly flex, which activates the hips and then the hamstrings. The action is like doing a jerk in Olympic lifting."

One last point....the weights we use on box squats are percentages of a 1RM for 2 reps. Think of the different TUT between that and a conventional squat with near maximal weight...on a consistant basis. The muscular soreness is much less than with regular squatting.

http://elitefts.com/documents/box-squat.htm
 
I hate to stray further off topic, but you two made really good counter arguments. I've seen several individuals perform a bench squat, where the compression on the spine seem painful. Repetition was at least 8. Far more than the 2 rep mentioned above. The available vid is the first example I've seen, in which control is maintained throughout the movement. I'm beginning to wonder if we're talking about different exercises. Hmmm?:confused:
 
poohbear said:
I'm beginning to wonder if we're talking about different exercises. Hmmm?:confused:
Click to expand...

Nope....just probably two different ways of doing it....the wrong way (the way you saw)...and the right way. ;)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Guys - you lost me here. I'd like to try box squats, but they look dangerous. What you and Hannibal are describing looks different then what I'm seeing in the videos. In the videos you put up, you can see in the last seconds of the movement the arch in your back disappears and as your leg goes past perpendicular you look like you fall on the box. I'm not doubting your expertise in any way, it just looks very different than what you're describing, and very different than my form, an Ed's form down below.

When I squat, I look exactly like Ed in the video down below, except I think my back is slightly more upright. I don't look like the videos up above, it's painful for me to arch my back that much even without a weight on my back.

Ok, feel free to offer pointers or tear what I said apart. :)
 
Not a great example as my form is not great and the video is VERY dark...(brighten up your screen as much as possible)...but you can get the general idea.

www.angelfire.com/journal2/bfoldthetruth/325boxsquat52202

Copy and paste..

B True
 
Never mind...can't get the link to work..shoot. Have an amazing video...I'll try to upload it somewhere else then post a link...

B True
 
Last edited:
The primary hip abductor, the gluteus medius, is very important in single leg stance, activities and sports involving lateral motion, and gait. The reason you see all knee patients (and most hip and low back patients as well) doing hip abduction and adduction is due to the vital role these muscles play as prime movers in everyday activity. Gluteus medius weakness causes all sorts of knee, hip and low back problems. Weakness of the adductor group can result in groin strains, adaptive shortening of the abductors due to inadequate opposition, and gait difficulty.
Click to expand...

Of course, if one is training specifically for a sport, there is only so much time and energy to go around. If these a weakness in one of these muscles is not holding back a particular lift or impeding performance in an area, it is generally getting enough work through its supportive role.

Also, both muscles also serve to rotate, as well as resist rotation of the femur. And this will occuring during squatting and deadlifting, particularly sumo deadlifting. So when one is forcibly abducting the femurs to ensure that the knees travel out over the toes, instead of forward, increasing the lateral shear at the knee joint, guess what is not only contracting isometrically, but getting worked concentrically and eccentrically as well.

Any type of lunge where the body is moving from side to side radically increasing lateral shear at the knee joint. Anybody advising this type of exercise should be beaten until they are bleeding from every orifice they have. If you are busy or do not have the stomach for it, I have lots of chain and even more frequent flyer miles.

I call that rock the tootsie roll. I have seen many WSB guys box squat and some do it and some don't. It also seems that those with the most extreme arch and bigger "squater bootys" seem to look more exagerated. I am still waiting for Arioch's take on it, as I posted it on my squat thread too.
Click to expand...

What do you mean my take on it? Could you be more specific?
 
Arioch said:

Any type of lunge where the body is moving from side to side radically increasing lateral shear at the knee joint. Anybody advising this type of exercise should be beaten until they are bleeding from every orifice
Click to expand...
So that would include the 'crossover lunge' - the move that is like a curtesy? If so - UH-OH. My too biggest, most knowledgable, educated, & experienced sources of training info are now at odds with one another.

AAAAAHHH! Guess it's back to more studying & reading for me to make sense of it all.

In the mean time, I've had no pain or strain in my hip area at all (oh wait, it's NOT a totally neglected area, I get some workouts there outside the gym! ;) ) but my shoulder's still hurting.
 
Gladiola,

I've heard of curtsey lunges, but I've never done one or seen it done. Just doing a curtsey and imagining a barbell across my back with my knees and ankles all twisted -- OW!!! Is it literally like a curtsey with weights on top? Can you find a pic?
 
You don't really need those exercises, if you work hard on things like squats, leg presses, hack squats and leg extensions. Tom Platz had every thigh muscle devloped to the max-possibly the best devloped thighs ever, and he only did the above exercises, mostly Squats, Hacks and Leg extensions.
Now if you are speaking to the fat problem many women experience, remember spot reducing doesn't work, to eliminate fat you need a calorie deficit.
 
Intenceman said:
You don't really need those exercises, if you work hard on things like squats, leg presses, hack squats and leg extensions. Tom Platz had every thigh muscle devloped to the max-possibly the best devloped thighs ever, and he only did the above exercises, mostly Squats, Hacks and Leg extensions.
Now if you are speaking to the fat problem many women experience, remember spot reducing doesn't work, to eliminate fat you need a calorie deficit.
Click to expand...

Using Tom Platz as an example as how to build big legs is similar to using Jesus as an example of how to be perfect. My opinion.

B True
 
b fold the truth said:


Using Tom Platz as an example as how to build big legs is similar to using Jesus as an example of how to be perfect. My opinion.
Click to expand...

Let me get off the floor and wipe the tears from my eyes... oh my, thats a good one!

Personally, Im the only guy in the last 3 gyms Ive worked out in who uses those machines. Along with the butt-blaster. (although I think the butt0blaster use is just me wanting to display my ass... :D ) So thank you for the validation!!!!

I think you can build strong legs without them, but to go to the next level and/or achieve a more perfect balance to your physique theyre indespensable...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Richardbrown
Napsgear: Reverse Hypers: Don’t Neglect Your Glutes
Replies
13
Views
3K
Tiger Salman Khan
Tiger Salman Khan
Richardbrown
Napsgear: Why You Should Never Neglect Your Obliques
Replies
14
Views
2K
RoySimpson
RoySimpson
Richardbrown
Napsgear: The Best Warm-Up for Bench Press
Replies
14
Views
3K
RoySimpson
RoySimpson
Richardbrown
Napsgear: 4 LEG EXERCISES YOU CAN PERFORM ON ANY CABLE MACHINE
Replies
14
Views
3K
Tiger Salman Khan
Tiger Salman Khan
jasonhill800
Barefoot Squats: Are They For You?
Replies
15
Views
3K
RoySimpson
RoySimpson
Top Bottom