i personally think they arnt as harsh as people say, against all ppl on this boards advice i did an winstrol only cycle to test the gains. I started off at 50mg ED then i bumped it to 150 ED for 5 weeks with no liver protection/support, had no ill effects, very minimal joint pain in one elbow, and decent gains appearance wise and strength went up considerably. Some ppl swear by em, and others hate em.