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Why to use a "fast ester" a cycles end.

Realgains

New member
Why to use a "fast ester" at cycles end. Examples

As" Dr.Robert Banner" has pointed out it is a very good idea to switch to ,or add a steroid to the end of a cycle, that is in rapid ester form.

Before I can tell you why it is a good idea to include this technique I would like to explain esters briefly.
Oil based steroids are packaged up in "esters" to allow for a longer, slower, and potentially more constant bloood hormone level. Esterification inactivates the steroid molecule temporarily. This is beneficial to the steroid user and especially the men receiving replacement testosterone as less trips to the doctor and or fewer shots per month are needed in order to see good blood hormone levels.
The only "problem" with esterfication for the steroid user is that the hormone or hormones of choice will take some time to reach muscle building levels within the system. This is why doing a loading dose is important. Simply put a loading dose is a larger than would be weekly dose done immediately at the beginning of a cycle. This technique allows blood hormone levels to reach the desired levels sooner than they could if a loading dose was not done.
Let me make it clear that loading a hormone in the proper way does not result in skyrocketing hormone levels or levels of blood hormone that are greater than what would be attained by not loading.....it just gets hormone levels up to the desirred levels sooner. This is good for two reasons...#1. Gains start sooner and #2. One can potentailly be "on" for a shorter period of time while seeing the same gains. Ie: an 8week cycle as opposed to a 10-11 week cycle.
Since I believe it is best to inject all slower estered steroids and testosterone twice per week of once every 4 days I will calculate the load in the following manner.........one takes the amount of steroid that one plans to use per week and divides it by 7. Then one takes 5 days worth of injnection and adds it to the amount that would is planned for each biweekly injection. ie: If you plan on doing 500 of test cyp per week then you you take the daily amount, which is about 70 mg , and multiply it by five which equals 350mg and then add 250, which is the amount of your biweekly injection. So a good loading dose here would be about 600 mg. You could add a little more.
The slower the ester the more important loading becomes.
Some men that use very large amounts of gear on a weekly basis may choose to spread the load out over the first one or two weeks of the cycle, although it is not necessary to do this and blood hormone levels will be reached sooner by loading all on day one in various injection sites.
NOTE: It is a good practise to never inject more than 3 cc into any one spot as more than this can result in sterile abscess formation which can convert to an infected abscess...bad stuff!
ALSO NOTE: that this practise is done all the time in the medical field and with some very powerful drugs and with no adverse affects.

Anyway....getting back to esterfication....An ester is a molecular chain composed mainly of carbon and hydrogen atomes. This chain is usually attached to the hormone at the 17th carbon position(there are exceptions as some are joined at "position three")

Getting back to why we use fast releasing esters at cycles end....well it is very simple really, you see the transition time between peak blood hormone levels and the time it takes for the steroid to "clear" the system after ones last shot and before clomid therapy can be a emotionally depressing and a waste of time. For example, test cyp takes about 14 days to clear the system if doses are not huge. During the last weak there is not enough steroid in the blood to result in anabolism but too much for HPTA recovery. This can result in an odd feeling in the sensitive ,also ideally one wants natural test production to start as soon after the last injection as possible so recovery time is not wasted. This will then allow you to "stay off" sooner and will also be less hormonally traumatic for the system. A quick recovery of natural test production is paramount to keeping gains from a cycle.
One dosen't want to be floating around in "no mans land" with hormone levels too high for recovery but too low for gains. This is one resason why "tapering" is a waste of time.
For recreational user this means a quicker more enjoyable recovery is possible. For the highly competitive, that stay "on" for a good part of the year, switching to fast esters at the end of a cycle can help them spend less time between cycles. This is NOT recommended for the vast majority and is irrelavent for those that stay "on" all the time, which is another thing I frown upon, unless you are at the "national level" or professional.

Another reason to switch to a faster ester at the end of a cycle goes like this....it just so happens most of the injectable steroids that DO NOT aromatize are in rapid ester form. The two most commoly used are winstrol depot and trenbolone acetate. These two steroids can be used during the last weeks of a cycle to help "harder up" the gains form a powerful aromatizing hormone such as testosterone. Even with the use of estrogen inhibitors some water gain is usually unavoidable when using testosterone, or very large doses of other aromatizing gear such as EQ. One will notice the hardening affect most as the blood hormone levels of the aromatizable hormone fall. ie: in the last two weeks before clomid therapy begins.

Examples of switching to fast esters at cycles end are as follows...

Test cyp was done with a loading dose on day one and then run for 8 weeks at 700 mg per week and stopped at week 8. Test cyp dose reduced to 300 for week 8 and test prop 50 mg injected evey other day and then during weeks 9 and 10 test prop injected at 125mg every other day. Three to four days after the last shot start clomid therapy as props half life is probably 2 days and starting clomid 3-4 days after the last shot will have allowed the testosterone level to fall to the point were clomid could start to become effective.

#2.
Test cyp as above but this time trenbolone acetate at 50 mg wil be run during weeks 6, 7 , 8 , 9 and 10. The tren will greatly enhance the muscle building affect of this cycle during weeks 6, 7 and 8, at the time when one starts to notice gains slowing down a bit( best gains are usually seen between weeks 2 and 6 of most cycles and for most men) After week 8 gains will start to drop again but the hardness from tren remains as estrogen levels and water retention lessens.
One could run the tren all the way through the cycle as well for a much more dramatic affect but tren for 10 weeks plus test for ten weeks is a very androgenic stack and may not be tolerated by some men if largish doses are needed. Also, some men may choose not to do this in order to keep the overall steroid dose down for various reasons, and health issues being one of them.

Winstrol can be used in place of tren with similar but less dramatic results as can the oral steroids anavar or Halotestin, although I do not recommend running these 17 aa steroid for more than 4 weeks at a time. Winstrol taken IM can be run for a longer time as it avoids the "first pass" upon the liver from oral ingestion. The 17aa steroid is detoxified over several days as opposed to the several hour associated with oral igestion. This is one reason why it makes no sence to drink your winny bro's ..sorry. Not only that but a higher dose of winny is needed for the same affect if it is taken orally.

Proviron at 100mg per day could also be added, either for the duration of the cycle or for the last several weeks, as it has a very short half life and provides a good amount of hardeneing androgen. It also acts as an estrogen inhibitor to some degree and thus reduces water retention from aromatizing hormones. Proviron has made a "come back" of late, even though it is a very weak anabolic, for the above reasons. It should also be noted that proviron binds very strongly to plasma binding proteins such as SHBG and thus this probably allows more of the anabolic hormone used with proviron to be in an unbound state. This could increase gains of course. Also proviron is not 17aa.

There are tons of combo's that can be used...use your imagination.

Happy safe cycles bro's!


RG


:)
 
Last edited:
Good post man. If you ever read any of my posts you see I ALWAYS suggest using fast-acting compounds at the end of a cycle, preferably fina.:p
 
Which brings me to a question...

Realgains, in your personal opinion what fast-acting compound do you feel is the best when coming off a classic test/eq, test/dbol, deca/test cycle?

Personally, I would always advocate tren EXCEPT when deca has been the base of the cycle, in which case I would suggest winny.

What do you think?
 
The Almighty said:
Which brings me to a question...

Realgains, in your personal opinion what fast-acting compound do you feel is the best when coming off a classic test/eq, test/dbol, deca/test cycle?

Personally, I would always advocate tren EXCEPT when deca has been the base of the cycle, in which case I would suggest winny.

What do you think?

I would agree although tren could be used when coming off anything he he he
 
The Almighty said:
Good post man. If you ever read any of my posts you see I ALWAYS suggest using fast-acting compounds at the end of a cycle, preferably fina.:p


I have been reading plenty of your excellent posts and you have it correct once again bro!
 
When would you end Deca

When would you suggest ending the Deca if it's the base of the cycle? My cycle is Deca throghout at 400 per week for 11 weeks I was going to add Winny weeks 7-11 and Test was for the first 6 weeks. Also I know that tapering doesn't have a lot of popularity but say for example weeks 9 and 10 were at 200, and week 11 at 100 wouldn't it be cleared out of my system sooner than If I just did 400 straight through? I mean because the half life of 100 would be 50 after 7-10 days which at that point wouldn't be enough to keep me shut down. Where if I stopped the 400 after week 8 and continued winny to week 11 by the beginning of week 12 Deca would be gone and clomid could start. If I'm wrong about the timing of the ester let me know but it seems like if I do taper it's similar to just stopping at week 8 but a more consistent level of the hromone would be present through weeks 9,10,11. Please be kind in your rebuttal, I have read a lot the theory and ester timing but for some rason I still don't get some of it. I'm just trying to understand so answer with that in mind.:D
 
The Almighty said:
Which brings me to a question...

Realgains, in your personal opinion what fast-acting compound do you feel is the best when coming off a classic test/eq, test/dbol, deca/test cycle?

Personally, I would always advocate tren EXCEPT when deca has been the base of the cycle, in which case I would suggest winny.

What do you think?

Tren is great, can't go wrong with prop/suspension either though. A test/tren combo would be the best choice for most guys. Any oral or winny would work, but we've already disscussed why most guys probably don't need 17aa's. If one was rich enough Primo tabs would be great, although lower primo depot doses can be used, but something would probably needed to be added, winny being the best choice of course. If one was really aggressively bulking though the addition of anadrol or d-bol (depending on what was used during the cycle) with tren could help someone pack on a bit more muscle before the end of their cycle.
 
Re: When would you end Deca

nolin said:
When would you suggest ending the Deca if it's the base of the cycle? My cycle is Deca throghout at 400 per week for 11 weeks I was going to add Winny weeks 7-11 and Test was for the first 6 weeks. Also I know that tapering doesn't have a lot of popularity but say for example weeks 9 and 10 were at 200, and week 11 at 100 wouldn't it be cleared out of my system sooner than If I just did 400 straight through? I mean because the half life of 100 would be 50 after 7-10 days which at that point wouldn't be enough to keep me shut down. Where if I stopped the 400 after week 8 and continued winny to week 11 by the beginning of week 12 Deca would be gone and clomid could start. If I'm wrong about the timing of the ester let me know but it seems like if I do taper it's similar to just stopping at week 8 but a more consistent level of the hromone would be present through weeks 9,10,11. Please be kind in your rebuttal, I have read a lot the theory and ester timing but for some rason I still don't get some of it. I'm just trying to understand so answer with that in mind.:D


Bro you are mising the point.......DURING a cycle one wants consisitant even hormone levels but after a cycle you want hormone levels to drop as soon as possible so the hypothalamus can send out GnRH and the pituitary can then send out LH for testicular stimulation. Slowly tapering the hormone level at the end is not easy on the system as some like to think. The body either sences too much androgen or not enough androgen and even 100mg of nandrolone will keep HPTA from returning to normal after an inhibitory cycle. Tapering just keeps the system in "no mans land" longer , that is the point in time after a cycle that hormone levels are too low for growth and too high for HPTA recovery.

I would stop the deca after week week nine and add the winny from weeks 7 onward through week 12.

I would strongly recommend that you use H C G at 500iu's during weeks 10 and 11 since you will have some nut shrinkage from this length of cycle. Also nandrolone seems to keep one shut down at the levels of the testes longer than any other roid so it is wise to "prime" them with H C G before starting clomid. About 5 days after your last shot of winny start clomid at 300 mg on day one in divided doses and then 50 per day for AT LEAST 4 WEEKS and longer may be needed. The winny particles generally take almost a week to clear the system.
You can tell if you have been on clomid long enough by the quality and ease of erections.

RG
 
question??

Wouldn't most people have trouble with keeping gains with the esters on some of these drugs. I mean you have to wait 3 weeks for a half life, than clomid last for 3 weeks and you have 25% of the hormone still floating around 6 weeks after your last inject.

As opposed to something with a short half life like fina where it is 2-3 days, and after clomid everything is clear.

Does that have anything to do with why they say deca is a bitch to recover from for some people?
 
Re: question??

me2dammit said:
Wouldn't most people have trouble with keeping gains with the esters on some of these drugs. I mean you have to wait 3 weeks for a half life, than clomid last for 3 weeks and you have 25% of the hormone still floating around 6 weeks after your last inject.

As opposed to something with a short half life like fina where it is 2-3 days, and after clomid everything is clear.

Does that have anything to do with why they say deca is a bitch to recover from for some people?

It takes three weeks for most of the deca to clear so the half life is not that long bro......and it is possible to loose some gains while waiting to start clomid but probably not much as there is perhaps only a week were blood hormone levels would be too high for HPTA to kick in and too low for keeping gains.

Deca is so inhibitory not because it is in a long ester. It has to do with the characteristics of nandrolone. Nadrolone is very suppressive at low doses that is true, but it shuts one down at the level of the testes more so than any other roid so recovery of natural test is sometimes quite slow. It is wise to use H C G for a couple weeks at 500iu'sper day before starting clomid therapy.
Nandrolone is not active past three weeks, although the inactive metabolites are detectable in the blood for over a year. EQ metabolites can also be detected for a long time.
 
Re: Why to use a "fast ester" at cycles end. Examples

Realgains said:
As" Dr.Robert Banner" has pointed out it is a very good idea to switch to ,or add a steroid to the end of a cycle, that is in rapid ester form.

Before I can tell you why it is a good idea to include this technique I would like to explain esters briefly.
Oil based steroids are packaged up in "esters" to allow for a longer, slower, and potentially more constant bloood hormone level. Esterification inactivates the steroid molecule temporarily. This is beneficial to the steroid user and especially the men receiving replacement testosterone as less trips to the doctor and or fewer shots per month are needed in order to see good blood hormone levels.
The only "problem" with esterfication for the steroid user is that the hormone or hormones of choice will take some time to reach muscle building levels within the system. This is why doing a loading dose is important. Simply put a loading dose is a larger than would be weekly dose done immediately at the beginning of a cycle. This technique allows blood hormone levels to reach the desired levels sooner than they could if a loading dose was not done.
Let me make it clear that loading a hormone in the proper way does not result in skyrocketing hormone levels or levels of blood hormone that are greater than what would be attained by not loading.....it just gets hormone levels up to the desirred levels sooner. This is good for two reasons...#1. Gains start sooner and #2. One can potentailly be "on" for a shorter period of time while seeing the same gains. Ie: an 8week cycle as opposed to a 10-11 week cycle.
Since I believe it is best to inject all slower estered steroids and testosterone twice per week of once every 4 days I will calculate the load in the following manner.........one takes the amount of steroid that one plans to use per week and divides it by 7. Then one takes 5 days worth of injnection and adds it to the amount that would is planned for each biweekly injection. ie: If you plan on doing 500 of test cyp per week then you you take the daily amount, which is about 70 mg , and multiply it by five which equals 350mg and then add 250, which is the amount of your biweekly injection. So a good loading dose here would be about 600 mg. You could add a little more.
The slower the ester the more important loading becomes.
Some men that use very large amounts of gear on a weekly basis may choose to spread the load out over the first one or two weeks of the cycle, although it is not necessary to do this and blood hormone levels will be reached sooner by loading all on day one in various injection sites.
NOTE: It is a good practise to never inject more than 3 cc into any one spot as more than this can result in sterile abscess formation which can convert to an infected abscess...bad stuff!
ALSO NOTE: that this practise is done all the time in the medical field and with some very powerful drugs and with no adverse affects.

Anyway....getting back to esterfication....An ester is a molecular chain composed mainly of carbon and hydrogen atomes. This chain is usually attached to the hormone at the 17th carbon position(there are exceptions as some are joined at "position three")

Getting back to why we use fast releasing esters at cycles end....well it is very simple really, you see the transition time between peak blood hormone levels and the time it takes for the steroid to "clear" the system after ones last shot and before clomid therapy can be a emotionally depressing and a waste of time. For example, test cyp takes about 14 days to clear the system if doses are not huge. During the last weak there is not enough steroid in the blood to result in anabolism but too much for HPTA recovery. This can result in an odd feeling in the sensitive ,also ideally one wants natural test production to start as soon after the last injection as possible so recovery time is not wasted. This will then allow you to "stay off" sooner and will also be less hormonally traumatic for the system. A quick recovery of natural test production is paramount to keeping gains from a cycle.
One dosen't want to be floating around in "no mans land" with hormone levels too high for recovery but too low for gains. This is one resason why "tapering" is a waste of time.
For recreational user this means a quicker more enjoyable recovery is possible. For the highly competitive, that stay "on" for a good part of the year, switching to fast esters at the end of a cycle can help them spend less time between cycles. This is NOT recommended for the vast majority and is irrelavent for those that stay "on" all the time, which is another thing I frown upon, unless you are at the "national level" or professional.

Another reason to switch to a faster ester at the end of a cycle goes like this....it just so happens most of the injectable steroids that DO NOT aromatize are in rapid ester form. The two most commoly used are winstrol depot and trenbolone acetate. These two steroids can be used during the last weeks of a cycle to help "harder up" the gains form a powerful aromatizing hormone such as testosterone. Even with the use of estrogen inhibitors some water gain is usually unavoidable when using testosterone, or very large doses of other aromatizing gear such as EQ. One will notice the hardening affect most as the blood hormone levels of the aromatizable hormone fall. ie: in the last two weeks before clomid therapy begins.

Examples of switching to fast esters at cycles end are as follows...

Test cyp was done with a loading dose on day one and then run for 8 weeks at 700 mg per week and stopped at week 8. Test cyp dose reduced to 300 for week 8 and test prop 50 mg injected evey other day and then during weeks 9 and 10 test prop injected at 125mg every other day. Three to four days after the last shot start clomid therapy as props half life is probably 2 days and starting clomid 3-4 days after the last shot will have allowed the testosterone level to fall to the point were clomid could start to become effective.

#2.
Test cyp as above but this time trenbolone acetate at 50 mg wil be run during weeks 6, 7 , 8 , 9 and 10. The tren will greatly enhance the muscle building affect of this cycle during weeks 6, 7 and 8, at the time when one starts to notice gains slowing down a bit( best gains are usually seen between weeks 2 and 6 of most cycles and for most men) After week 8 gains will start to drop again but the hardness from tren remains as estrogen levels and water retention lessens.
One could run the tren all the way through the cycle as well for a much more dramatic affect but tren for 10 weeks plus test for ten weeks is a very androgenic stack and may not be tolerated by some men if largish doses are needed. Also, some men may choose not to do this in order to keep the overall steroid dose down for various reasons, and health issues being one of them.

Winstrol can be used in place of tren with similar but less dramatic results as can the oral steroids anavar or Halotestin, although I do not recommend running these 17 aa steroid for more than 4 weeks at a time. Winstrol taken IM can be run for a longer time as it avoids the "first pass" upon the liver from oral ingestion. The 17aa steroid is detoxified over several days as opposed to the several hour associated with oral igestion. This is one reason why it makes no sence to drink your winny bro's ..sorry. Not only that but a higher dose of winny is needed for the same affect if it is taken orally.

Proviron at 100mg per day could also be added, either for the duration of the cycle or for the last several weeks, as it has a very short half life and provides a good amount of hardeneing androgen. It also acts as an estrogen inhibitor to some degree and thus reduces water retention from aromatizing hormones. Proviron has made a "come back" of late, even though it is a very weak anabolic, for the above reasons. It should also be noted that proviron binds very strongly to plasma binding proteins such as SHBG and thus this probably allows more of the anabolic hormone used with proviron to be in an unbound state. This could increase gains of course. Also proviron is not 17aa.

There are tons of combo's that can be used...use your imagination.

Happy safe cycles bro's!


RG


:)

some memebers on this board, me being one of them have adressed the issue many times, i completely agree with the notion of dumping slow acting gear and adding fast acting at the end, that way recovery can proceed much earlier
 
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