Why is it considered wrong to execute the mentally ill and retarded?

[p0ink]

fox news is talking about how the jurors on the Jessic Lunsford (the 6 year old girl who was held hostage in a trailer, tortured, raped, and buried alive) must consider that John Couey may be mentally retarded before sentencing.

my question is...who the fuck cares if they are retarded or insane? What is the point in keeping them around?

 

[redguru]

I'd question his retardation, he knew he did wrong because he buried her alive under his sister's steps in an attempt to hide his act. He is capable of tactical and logical thought processes and showed fear when caught. This is a no-brainer, Hope they fire up old sparky in Raiford for him. Public firing squad would be better.

 

[SpyWizard]

I'd question his retardation, he knew he did wrong because he buried her alive under his sister's steps in an attempt to hide his act. He is capable of tactical and logical thought processes and showed fear when caught. This is a no-brainer, Hope they fire up old sparky in Raiford for him. Public firing squad would be better.

televised...

 

[manny78]

I'd question his retardation, he knew he did wrong because he buried her alive under his sister's steps in an attempt to hide his act. He is capable of tactical and logical thought processes and showed fear when caught. This is a no-brainer, Hope they fire up old sparky in Raiford for him. Public firing squad would be better.

Hanging (short drop) with no hood is still the best for public display. Short drops usually end up in slow strangulation executions which would fit his crimes.

 

[Dial_tone]

because you need to understand that
a) you did wrong
b) why what you did was wrong and
c) that we're killing your dumbass because of what you did

Think about it. A guy rapes your wife. Do you go kick his ass and walk away w/o saying a word? Not me. I want him to know I'm kicking his ass because of what he did...none of that letting him think it was some random act shit.

 

[jerkbox]

much like the woman who drowned her 5 kids who is now in a mental hospital chumming it up with another woman who killed her kids.

 

[heatherrae]

much like the woman who drowned her 5 kids who is now in a mental hospital chumming it up with another woman who killed her kids.

She truly was psychotic. I think she really did believe that she was "saving them from the devil" as she put it.

The whole issue is that we not punish someone who didn't even know what they were doing. Mens rea = a guilty mind or intent.

Killing someone who didn't know what they were doing would almost be like killing someone for an accident.

I don't think the man who killed the Lunsford girl was too retarded to know what he was doing was wrong though, as is evidenced by his planning and then covering the body.

There is a WEIRD part of the law though that even if you find that they knew they were doing wrong and did it anyway, you can't execute them if they don't understand that they are going to be executed or why they are being executed. I don't really get the policy behind that. Isn't it WORSE to kill someone who knows it is coming. If they don't know, they should just consider themselves lucky that they don't know. Right?

 

[Lao Tzu]

Because culpability is built into our legal and cultural justice system. Someone who maliciously drives over a friend will get alot more rage and upset than someone who falls asleep at the wheel. And one would get 1st degree murder and the other involuntary manslaughter if someone died.

Retards & the mentally ill aren't considered as culpable as others. That is all there is to it honestly. I don't know where I stand in the Cooey case, but I don't support killing honest to god retarded people or people who are so ill they don't know what they are doing.

 

[heatherrae]

Because culpability is built into our legal and cultural justice system. Someone who maliciously drives over a friend will get alot more rage and upset than someone who falls asleep at the wheel. And one would get 1st degree murder and the other involuntary manslaughter if someone died.

Retards & the mentally ill aren't considered as culpable as others. That is all there is to it honestly. I don't know where I stand in the Cooey case, but I don't support killing honest to god retarded people or people who are so ill they don't know what they are doing.

yeah, i am with you on that one. but I think the issue here is what if someone was sane and knew that they were committing the crime, but then between the time of the crime and the time of the sentencing they become mentally incapable of understanding the execution reasons or even that they are being executed? That happens sometimes that people are lucid and not suffering mental illness to the point that they don't know what they are doing when they commit the crime but later their illness gets worse and they don't understand the execution. What do you think about that situation?

 

[Lao Tzu]

yeah, i am with you on that one. but I think the issue here is what if someone was sane and knew that they were committing the crime, but then between the time of the crime and the time of the sentencing they become mentally incapable of understanding the execution reasons or even that they are being executed? That happens sometimes that people are lucid and not suffering mental illness to the point that they don't know what they are doing when they commit the crime but later their illness gets worse and they don't understand the execution. What do you think about that situation?

I wouldn't execute someone like that.

 

[InquisitivePsyche]

Not to mention - many of these people have their lawyers claim that they are mentally ill which is, a good amount of the time - pure bullshit. I hate to break it but most of the time, people who are mentally ill do not commit these crimes. You just hear about the few who do it, because it's publicized by the media.

Saying you should execute mentally ill people is really saying you should execute a huge % of the population. Where do you put your limits. Mentally ill consists of depression, anxiety disorders, BPD, OCD, etc, etc. Einstein, Lincoln, John Nash, Beethoven, etc - all mentally ill but perfectly capable of functioning in society.

No way I would agree with that whatsoever... perhaps we should just take DNA samples of all babies born so we can put them in our database so we can simply link a crime to the computer system and catch whoever comitted it.. so much controversy... Reminds me of the case Buck V Bell (Holmes who support sterilizing mentally retarded people with an IQ under 60 or so)...

 

[Lao Tzu]

Not to mention - many of these people have their lawyers claim that they are mentally ill which is, a good amount of the time - pure bullshit. I hate to break it but most of the time, people who are mentally ill do not commit these crimes. You just hear about the few who do it, because it's publicized by the media.

Saying you should execute mentally ill people is really saying you should execute a huge % of the population. Where do you put your limits. Mentally ill consists of depression, anxiety disorders, BPD, OCD, etc, etc. Einstein, Lincoln, John Nash, Beethoven, etc - all mentally ill but perfectly capable of functioning in society.

No way I would agree with that whatsoever... perhaps we should just take DNA samples of all babies born so we can put them in our database so we can simply link a crime to the computer system and catch whoever comitted it.. so much controversy... Reminds me of the case Buck V Bell (Holmes who support sterilizing mentally retarded people with an IQ under 60 or so)...

Some mentally ill suffer from delusions so severe they don't know fact from fiction. And some people with severe OCD have trouble controlling their behavior. I think 25% of the prison population has severe mental illnesses and I know 25% of hte public have illnesses, but not severe mental illnesses. Better treatment would help eliminate this need to have a discussion on executing the mentally ill and cut down on crime.

 

[InquisitivePsyche]

Some mentally ill suffer from delusions so severe they don't know fact from fiction. And some people with severe OCD have trouble controlling their behavior. I think 25% of the prison population has severe mental illnesses and I know 25% of hte public have illnesses, but not severe mental illnesses. Better treatment would help eliminate this need to have a discussion on executing the mentally ill and cut down on crime.

AGREED. Better treatment and more of a focus on PREVENTION. I know that is starting to become more popular these days and I hope it continues to grow. This is what I want to do... exactly in this area.

 

[redguru]

Some mentally ill suffer from delusions so severe they don't know fact from fiction. And some people with severe OCD have trouble controlling their behavior. I think 25% of the prison population has severe mental illnesses and I know 25% of hte public have illnesses, but not severe mental illnesses. Better treatment would help eliminate this need to have a discussion on executing the mentally ill and cut down on crime.

Ah, another excuse for the government to reach into my wallet? Decide who is mentally ill and fund their care? Who makes the decision to put the scarlet letter on whom?

 

[InquisitivePsyche]

Ah, another excuse for the government to reach into my wallet? Decide who is mentally ill and fund their care? Who makes the decision to put the scarlet letter on whom?

Hate to break it to you but there are far worse things the government uses your money for. Not to mention, if our government could start focusing on spending their $ on important things.. perhaps they wouldn't have to "reach into your wallet."

 

[H_T_]

you gonna pull the trigger? tough guy.

 

[p0ink]

crazy? fine, let's just fry them in a clown suit.

 

[redguru]

Hate to break it to you but there are far worse things the government uses your money for. Not to mention, if our government could start focusing on spending their $ on important things.. perhaps they wouldn't have to "reach into your wallet."

Maybe if the government would stick to what is constitutionally mandated, then you wouldn't have the chance to make that decision.

 

[redguru]

you gonna pull the trigger? tough guy.

In the case of Cooey? Without qualm, my brutha.

 

[gotmilk]

Hanging (short drop) with no hood is still the best for public display. Short drops usually end up in slow strangulation executions which would fit his crimes.

Long drop....I want to see his head roll around

 

[InquisitivePsyche]

Maybe if the government would stick to what is constitutionally mandated, then you wouldn't have the chance to make that decision.

That could easily be debated. What do you consider "constitutionally mandated?" It's a whole topic in itself. Some are literalists (like Holmes) and some are not. So for instance, the 14th amendment... right to life, liberty, and property - what would you define as liberty since it's not explicitily stated in the constitution??

 

[wootoom]

ask youngguns

 

[H_T_]

Ah, another excuse for the government to reach into my wallet? Decide who is mentally ill and fund their care? Who makes the decision to put the scarlet letter on whom?

typically, they don't, unless someone asks them to or intervenes on their behalf. but prisons have psych wards. thats what they're for. i banned a guy from my center a few weks ago. why? because he had previously stabbed someone in the neck. i ain't dealing with that. people that are mentally ill typically don't know it. that's why when someone claims it as a defense, i lol....

 

[redguru]

That could easily be debated. What do you consider "constitutionally mandated?" It's a whole topic in itself. Some are literalists (like Holmes) and some are not. So for instance, the 14th amendment... right to life, liberty, and property - what would you define as liberty since it's not explicitily stated in the constitution??

Liberty is the freedom to travel with impunity within the jurisdiction of the Constitution.

 

[InquisitivePsyche]

Liberty is the freedom to travel with impunity within the jurisdiction of the Constitution.

"Every opinion tends to become the law." Famous quote by Oliver Wendell Holmes. The reason he said this is PRECISELY what I was just talking about... people "fill in," their thoughts on how exactly, the constitution is interpreted.

You have proven my point with this statement you just made. It's a far more difficult topic than one thinks..

 

[redguru]

"Every opinion tends to become the law." Famous quote by Oliver Wendell Holmes. The reason he said this is PRECISELY what I was just talking about... people "fill in," their thoughts on how exactly, the constitution is interpreted.

You have proven my point with this statement you just made. It's a far more difficult topic than one thinks..

Ah, so your interpretation is better than mine because you have a a Psych degree and mine is in Engineering? High horse, dismount?

 

[InquisitivePsyche]

Ah, so your interpretation is better than mine because you have a a Psych degree and mine is in Engineering? High horse, dismount?

Not at all - where did you get that? I am stating what I have learned from law courses I have taken (I'm not saying I know everything.. stop assuming) AND I never said your interpretation was incorrect - that could be PART of what liberty means but you just contradicted yourself because you told me previously that if the government follows specifically what the constitution mandates, then things would be solved and it wouldn't be an issue - you just did the opposite according to what you said because you PUT IN your opinion about WHAT liberty means TO YOU (and liberty is not specifically MANDATED in the constitution). Exactly what I was talking about... is that what the constitution explicitily says?? No... my point.

P.S. I'm jealous of people with engineering degrees, btw.

 

[redguru]

Not at all - where did you get that? I am stating what I have learned from law courses I have taken (I'm not saying I know everything.. stop assuming)AND I never said your interpretation incorrect - that could be PART of what liberty means but you just contradicted yourself because you told me previously that if the government follows specifically what the constitution mandates, then things would be solved and it wouldn't be an issue - you just did the opposite according to what you said because you PUT IN your opinion about WHAT liberty means TO YOU. Exactly what I was talking about... is that what the constitution explicitily says?? No... my point.

No, you are offering a strawman. I was referring to what is funded by the government specifically listed in the powers clauses. You asked me my definition of liberty and I gave it unabashedly.

 

[InquisitivePsyche]

No, you are offering a strawman. I was referring to what is funded by the government specifically listed in the powers clauses. You asked me my definition of liberty and I gave it unabashedly.

You said " what the constitution mandates" ... the constitution refers to nearly everything we do. So it was legit. I do see your point, so don't get me wrong - but that's just my opinion on that matter.

Ok, time for me to go eat the rest of my Subway sandwich. LOL. God I love food. Haha.

P.S. I am not the type who thinks I am better than others - if you look in my profile, that's the one thing I despise = people who think they are better than everyone else when they don't even know them. So if I came off that way, that was not my intention. I hate people who do that shit.

 

[redguru]

You said " what the constitution mandates" ... the constitution refers to nearly everything we do. So it was legit. I do see your point, so don't get me wrong - but that's just my opinion on that matter.

Ok, time for me to go eat the rest of my Subway sandwich. LOL. God I love food. Haha.

P.S. I am not the type who thinks I am better than others - if you look in my profile, that's the one thing I despise = people who think they are better than everyone else when they don't even know them. So if I came off that way, that was not my intention. I hate people who do that shit.

Agreed, and I re-read the post and agree you didn't mean it that way, so the apology should be mine.

 

[InquisitivePsyche]

Agreed, and I re-read the post and agree you didn't mean it that way, so the apology should be mine.

Nah nah - it's my fault. But, at least it makes nice conversation. That's one of the things I love - talking with intellectual peeps. Hehe.

 

[b0und]

fox news is talking about how the jurors on the Jessic Lunsford (the 6 year old girl who was held hostage in a trailer, tortured, raped, and buried alive) must consider that John Couey may be mentally retarded before sentencing.

6 year old girl raped...

That's enough - the death penalty should be mandatory for that alone, regardless of the condition of the perpetrator.

b0und (imho)

 

[InquisitivePsyche]

6 year old girl raped...

That's enough - the death penalty should be mandatory for that alone, regardless of the condition of the perpetrator.

b0und (imho)

I believe that anyone who rapes ANY person, should get the death penalty. That type of shit I don't have an ounce of remorse...

People are sick...

This is why I want to study them.

 

[heatherrae]

typically, they don't, unless someone asks them to or intervenes on their behalf. but prisons have psych wards. thats what they're for. i banned a guy from my center a few weks ago. why? because he had previously stabbed someone in the neck. i ain't dealing with that. people that are mentally ill typically don't know it. that's why when someone claims it as a defense, i lol....

Well, sometimes it is the lawyer who tells them they need to use it as a defense. I havent' had that situation, but I did have the situation where a 19 year old kid was at such a low IQ that I used it as a defense. The kid didn't know. He was SLOW. I had to come up with it after interacting with him and figuring out that he was just very slow.