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where to get sterile oil?
- Thread starter HAYEZ
- Start date
Yes, this is correct. What you need is a calibrated thermometer. You can calibrate it by putting it in boiling water and adjusting the gauge until it read 212. The thermometer is most important. If the oil reaches the smoke point(all fats have one) it will begin to change molecullarly. Not a good thing, not even for french fries.
Guvna
New member
sorry chef, but that is not a very good way to do it.
buy some grapeseed oil from the store and run it through a sterile .2 micron filter. It is now sterile.
http://www.ironforlife.com/t3771-why-i-dont-autoclavebake-my-gear.html
buy some grapeseed oil from the store and run it through a sterile .2 micron filter. It is now sterile.
http://www.ironforlife.com/t3771-why-i-dont-autoclavebake-my-gear.html
_Yossarian_
New member
lol....guys, did we read the thread before responding? his gear is already sterile, he just needs some oil to cut it..
http://www.gearboxinc.com/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=70
http://www.gearboxinc.com/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=70
Last edited by a moderator:
There is no way in hell that I would go to the store and buy grapeseed oil to cut my sterile gear. Have you ever seen how oils are made that go to your grocery store? They are not pressed in a sterile enviroment. They are pressed in a sanitized enviroment, at best. Believe me, there is a huge difference between the two.
Guvna
New member
chefbone said:
No, it is not sterile until filtered through .2 micro (HOSPITALS consider this suitable sterilization).
All of these online "legitmate" companies are just people just like you and me with a website. Ive seen probably close to 40 of these "legitimate" research places pop up. Most of them selling sterile oil. They buy wesson, send it through a filter, sometimes bake it, then call it "sterile." You are doing the EXACT same thing as them when you go to the supermarket and buy oil off the shelf and do it yourself.
Also, if you gave me the choice of only having my oil sent through a .2 micron sterile filter, or only baking it, I would pick the filter every single time. I suspect anyone who knows anything about sterilization would do the same.
PLEASE read the link I posted before commenting again.
Dude....Allow me to make this perfectly clear. I don't care if you have a super-duper, ass-kickin, turbo-charged, high-octane booster filter. You cannot sterilize anything at room temperature. That is not how sterilization works. Sorry. You may be able to filter out impurities after sterilization. That I can surely agree with.
Guvna
New member
Why I don't autoclave/bake my gear. - By SV-1
I've seen a lot of info on the board lately about how using an autoclave or pressure cooker will sterilize oil based AAS, well after a good bit of research everything I've been able to find states the exact opposite.
To start here is a quote by Justin, a moderator at UK Muscle:
Quote:
Clearing up some misconceptions
Heat sterilisation of oil will not be successful by using 250F.
250F is the heat used by a certain class of autoclave. The autoclave uses pressure also to achieve wet sterilisation, this method will work for aqueous solutions but will NOT sterilise oil. If heat is the chosen method to sterilise oil, then you must sterilise by dry heat methods, i.e. 150-170C (302 - 338F) for 1-4 hrs, (type and volume depending) which can be detrimental to certain hormone preparations.
Divert your attentions to using clean practises, filtering with a 0.22um membrane filter and incorporating a Bacteriostatic agent (BA).
I found the following to support this quote.
From the FLINDERS UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH AUSTRALIA - FACULTY OF SCIENCE AND ENGINEERING
SCHOOL OF BIOLOGICAL SCIENCES USE AND TRAINING FOR AUTOCLAVES
"Ensure that the material is autoclavable – Oils, waxes, some plastics, flammable materials and samples
containing solvents or substances that may emit toxic fumes should not be autoclaved"
Full document here:
http://www.scieng.flinders.edu.au/b...s/Autoclave.pdf
In the article Sterilization and Disinfection it says:
"Dry heat is used for the sterilization of anhydrous oils, greases, powders, etc., that cannot be easily permeated by steam. Dry heat is less efficient than wet-heat sterilization and requires longer times or higher temperatures; specific time and temperature must be determined for each type of material being sterilized.
Sterilization can usually be accomplished at 160-170C (320-338F) for periods of 2-4 hours. Higher temperatures and shorter times may be used for heat resistant materials. The heat transfer properties and arrangement of articles in the load are critical to insuring effective sterilization."
and
Steam Sterilization Disadvantages
"Unsuitable method for sterilization of anhydrous oils, greases and powders."
Full document:
http://www2.ncsu.edu/ncsu/ehs/www99...BioSterDis.html
The World of Autoclaves article gives a partial explanation why:
The time required to kill a known population of microorganisms in a specific suspension at a particular temperature is referred to as thermal death time (TDT). However, fats and oils slow heat penetration and increase TDT.
Full article:
http://esf.uvm.edu/uvmsafety/labsaf...autoclaves.html
Dry Heat Sterilization:
-Sterilization in the absence of water.
-Oven heated at 160 to 170 ° C for 2 to 3 hours.
Full article:
http://www.uta.edu/biology/badon/cl...Lecture 6.pdf
DRY HEAT STERILIZATION:
Equipment: Oven
Method: Dry heat sterilization is carried out at 160 deg C. to 170 deg C. for 2 to 4 hrs.
Application: Glassware, Fixed oils, Thermostable powders
STEAM STERILIZATION:
Equipment: Autoclave
Disadvantages: 1. Cannot use for oily preparation (oil base ointment)
http://webusers.xula.edu/tmandal/ph...ics/STERILZ.PPT
"Fats and oils have a great protective effect on microorganisms and their spores by
interfering with the penetration of wet heat. As has been noted, wet heat at a given temperature is more lethal
than dry heat, because moisture is an effective conductor of heat and penetrates into microbial cells and spores.
If microorganisms are trapped within fat globules, then moisture can less readily penetrate into the cells and
heating becomes more like dry heat."
http://www.vhall.nl/International/C...reservation.pdf
Biosafety Program - STERILIZATION
"The advantage of wet heat is a better heat transfer to and into the cell resulting in overall shorter exposure time and lower temperature. Steam sterilization uses pressurized steam at 121-132° C (250-270° F) for 30 or 40 minutes. This type of heat kills all microbial cells including spores, which are normally heat resistant. In order to accomplish the same effect with dry heat in an oven, the temperature needs to be increased to 160-170° C (320-338° F) for periods of 2 to 4 hours."
Full article here:
http://www.lbl.gov/ehs/biosafety/Bi...ilization.shtml
Standard Conditions for Sterilization
Dry Heat Sterilization
* 170° C (340° F)
* 1 hour (total cycle time—placing instruments in oven, heating to 170° C, timing for 1 hour, and then cooling—is from 2–2½ hours)
OR
* 160° C (320° F)
* 2 hours (total cycle time is from 3–3½ hours)
* Ideal for instruments with cutting edges and other sharps (e.g., scissors, scalpel blades, needles)
Exposure time begins only after the oven has reached the specified temperature.
Full article here:
http://www.reproline.jhu.edu/englis...ulti/pg/ip2.htm
Finally here is an advertisement for an ALL AMERICAN Electric Autoclave Model 25X, a $750 Sterilizer/Autoclave. Which says very clearly in the last line, "Not to be used to sterilize oils and powders."
So if you're counting on autoclaving/pressure cooking or baking (at any temp/time that wont fry your gear) to give you a sterile oil based product, think again.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Autoclave1.JPG (59.3 KB, 59 views)
I've seen a lot of info on the board lately about how using an autoclave or pressure cooker will sterilize oil based AAS, well after a good bit of research everything I've been able to find states the exact opposite.
To start here is a quote by Justin, a moderator at UK Muscle:
Quote:
Clearing up some misconceptions
Heat sterilisation of oil will not be successful by using 250F.
250F is the heat used by a certain class of autoclave. The autoclave uses pressure also to achieve wet sterilisation, this method will work for aqueous solutions but will NOT sterilise oil. If heat is the chosen method to sterilise oil, then you must sterilise by dry heat methods, i.e. 150-170C (302 - 338F) for 1-4 hrs, (type and volume depending) which can be detrimental to certain hormone preparations.
Divert your attentions to using clean practises, filtering with a 0.22um membrane filter and incorporating a Bacteriostatic agent (BA).
I found the following to support this quote.
From the FLINDERS UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH AUSTRALIA - FACULTY OF SCIENCE AND ENGINEERING
SCHOOL OF BIOLOGICAL SCIENCES USE AND TRAINING FOR AUTOCLAVES
"Ensure that the material is autoclavable – Oils, waxes, some plastics, flammable materials and samples
containing solvents or substances that may emit toxic fumes should not be autoclaved"
Full document here:
http://www.scieng.flinders.edu.au/b...s/Autoclave.pdf
In the article Sterilization and Disinfection it says:
"Dry heat is used for the sterilization of anhydrous oils, greases, powders, etc., that cannot be easily permeated by steam. Dry heat is less efficient than wet-heat sterilization and requires longer times or higher temperatures; specific time and temperature must be determined for each type of material being sterilized.
Sterilization can usually be accomplished at 160-170C (320-338F) for periods of 2-4 hours. Higher temperatures and shorter times may be used for heat resistant materials. The heat transfer properties and arrangement of articles in the load are critical to insuring effective sterilization."
and
Steam Sterilization Disadvantages
"Unsuitable method for sterilization of anhydrous oils, greases and powders."
Full document:
http://www2.ncsu.edu/ncsu/ehs/www99...BioSterDis.html
The World of Autoclaves article gives a partial explanation why:
The time required to kill a known population of microorganisms in a specific suspension at a particular temperature is referred to as thermal death time (TDT). However, fats and oils slow heat penetration and increase TDT.
Full article:
http://esf.uvm.edu/uvmsafety/labsaf...autoclaves.html
Dry Heat Sterilization:
-Sterilization in the absence of water.
-Oven heated at 160 to 170 ° C for 2 to 3 hours.
Full article:
http://www.uta.edu/biology/badon/cl...Lecture 6.pdf
DRY HEAT STERILIZATION:
Equipment: Oven
Method: Dry heat sterilization is carried out at 160 deg C. to 170 deg C. for 2 to 4 hrs.
Application: Glassware, Fixed oils, Thermostable powders
STEAM STERILIZATION:
Equipment: Autoclave
Disadvantages: 1. Cannot use for oily preparation (oil base ointment)
http://webusers.xula.edu/tmandal/ph...ics/STERILZ.PPT
"Fats and oils have a great protective effect on microorganisms and their spores by
interfering with the penetration of wet heat. As has been noted, wet heat at a given temperature is more lethal
than dry heat, because moisture is an effective conductor of heat and penetrates into microbial cells and spores.
If microorganisms are trapped within fat globules, then moisture can less readily penetrate into the cells and
heating becomes more like dry heat."
http://www.vhall.nl/International/C...reservation.pdf
Biosafety Program - STERILIZATION
"The advantage of wet heat is a better heat transfer to and into the cell resulting in overall shorter exposure time and lower temperature. Steam sterilization uses pressurized steam at 121-132° C (250-270° F) for 30 or 40 minutes. This type of heat kills all microbial cells including spores, which are normally heat resistant. In order to accomplish the same effect with dry heat in an oven, the temperature needs to be increased to 160-170° C (320-338° F) for periods of 2 to 4 hours."
Full article here:
http://www.lbl.gov/ehs/biosafety/Bi...ilization.shtml
Standard Conditions for Sterilization
Dry Heat Sterilization
* 170° C (340° F)
* 1 hour (total cycle time—placing instruments in oven, heating to 170° C, timing for 1 hour, and then cooling—is from 2–2½ hours)
OR
* 160° C (320° F)
* 2 hours (total cycle time is from 3–3½ hours)
* Ideal for instruments with cutting edges and other sharps (e.g., scissors, scalpel blades, needles)
Exposure time begins only after the oven has reached the specified temperature.
Full article here:
http://www.reproline.jhu.edu/englis...ulti/pg/ip2.htm
Finally here is an advertisement for an ALL AMERICAN Electric Autoclave Model 25X, a $750 Sterilizer/Autoclave. Which says very clearly in the last line, "Not to be used to sterilize oils and powders."
So if you're counting on autoclaving/pressure cooking or baking (at any temp/time that wont fry your gear) to give you a sterile oil based product, think again.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Autoclave1.JPG (59.3 KB, 59 views)
Guvna
New member
Why I don't autoclave/bake my gear. - By SV-1
Then there's the whole issue of endotoxins and pyrogens. Again the heat needed to kill them will also fry your gear.
"Endotoxin is relatively heat stable. It will survive common heat-based disinfection and sterilization procedures. Hence, sterile items are not necessarily free from endotoxin."
http://www.acciusa.com/cts/endotoxin.html
"Different endotoxins differ in their degree of toxicity, but all are heat stable and can tolerate autoclaving."
http://www.slic2.wsu.edu:82/hurlber...ges/Chap13.html
"Endotoxins are heat stable (boiling for 30 minutes does not destabilize endotoxin)"
http://www.tjclarkinc.com/bacterial..._endotoxins.htm
"Endotoxins - Heat stable molecules present in the cell walls of gram negative bacteria that have certain characteristic toxic effects"
http://www.meridianeng.com/metalworking.html
"It is difficult to remove endotoxins from products once present. It is far better to keep finished products and components relatively endotoxin-free rather than have to remove it once present."
"Historically, vials or glass components have been rendered pyrogen-free by dry heat sterilization at high temperatures. Some texts have recommended the depyrogenation of glassware and equipment by heating at a temperature of 250 C (482 degrees Fahrenheit) for 45 minutes. It has been reported that 650 C (1202 degrees Fahrenheit) for 1 minute or 180 C (356 degrees Fahrenheit) for 4 hours, likewise, will destroy pyrogens. Studies by Tsuji et al, published in 1978, have shown that at lower temperatures (of 170 C/338 degrees Fahrenheit), thermal destruction follows second-order rate, and a 3 log reduction of endotoxin levels at lower temperatures might not be practical."
http://www.fda.gov/ora/inspect_ref/itg/itg40.html
And I'm pretty sure that those temps/times will fry the hormones we use. So, if heat sterilization isn't an option, we go back to filtration/BA, imperfect though it is.
"14.1 General: Whenever possible, products shall be sterilized in the final container preferably by heat sterilization. Certain solutions and liquids that cannot be sterilized in the final container can be filtered through a sterile filter of nominal pore size 0.22um or less, or with at least equivalent microorganism-retaining properties into a previously sterilized container, such filter can remove bacteria and moulds, but not all viruses or mycoplasmas."
http://www.medisure.com.pk/drug_law/CGMP.html
Then there's the whole issue of endotoxins and pyrogens. Again the heat needed to kill them will also fry your gear.
"Endotoxin is relatively heat stable. It will survive common heat-based disinfection and sterilization procedures. Hence, sterile items are not necessarily free from endotoxin."
http://www.acciusa.com/cts/endotoxin.html
"Different endotoxins differ in their degree of toxicity, but all are heat stable and can tolerate autoclaving."
http://www.slic2.wsu.edu:82/hurlber...ges/Chap13.html
"Endotoxins are heat stable (boiling for 30 minutes does not destabilize endotoxin)"
http://www.tjclarkinc.com/bacterial..._endotoxins.htm
"Endotoxins - Heat stable molecules present in the cell walls of gram negative bacteria that have certain characteristic toxic effects"
http://www.meridianeng.com/metalworking.html
"It is difficult to remove endotoxins from products once present. It is far better to keep finished products and components relatively endotoxin-free rather than have to remove it once present."
"Historically, vials or glass components have been rendered pyrogen-free by dry heat sterilization at high temperatures. Some texts have recommended the depyrogenation of glassware and equipment by heating at a temperature of 250 C (482 degrees Fahrenheit) for 45 minutes. It has been reported that 650 C (1202 degrees Fahrenheit) for 1 minute or 180 C (356 degrees Fahrenheit) for 4 hours, likewise, will destroy pyrogens. Studies by Tsuji et al, published in 1978, have shown that at lower temperatures (of 170 C/338 degrees Fahrenheit), thermal destruction follows second-order rate, and a 3 log reduction of endotoxin levels at lower temperatures might not be practical."
http://www.fda.gov/ora/inspect_ref/itg/itg40.html
And I'm pretty sure that those temps/times will fry the hormones we use. So, if heat sterilization isn't an option, we go back to filtration/BA, imperfect though it is.
"14.1 General: Whenever possible, products shall be sterilized in the final container preferably by heat sterilization. Certain solutions and liquids that cannot be sterilized in the final container can be filtered through a sterile filter of nominal pore size 0.22um or less, or with at least equivalent microorganism-retaining properties into a previously sterilized container, such filter can remove bacteria and moulds, but not all viruses or mycoplasmas."
http://www.medisure.com.pk/drug_law/CGMP.html
Guvna
New member
Why I don't autoclave/bake my gear. - By SV-1
And in the end it's just not necessary IMO. Maybe this will help convince some people that they're not gonna die if they don't bake the sh*t out of their juice. Concentrate on clean conditions, proper technique, use a good filter (.2 micron) and you should be fine.
Development of a Multidose Formulation for a Humanized Monoclonal Antibody Using Experimental Design Techniques
"The efficacy of the preservative against various microorganisms was measured using a modified USP/EP PET (referred to as preservative screening test in this document). Tests were conducted at Microconsult Inc (Dallas, TX). In the procedure, formulations were tested against the following microorganisms: Escherichia coli, Staphylococcus aureus, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Candida albicans, and Aspergillus niger. The 3 bacterial strains were inoculated together at a total concentration of ~105 cfu/mL, as were the 2 fungi. Samples were incubated for 7 days at room temperature (25°C), and the total bacterial and fungal counts were measured using a colony counter. The log reduction (LR) values for the bacterial and fungal counts were calculated as log (initial count/final count)."
"Results of the preservative screening tests showed that the formulations containing 0.75% and 0.5% benzyl alcohol are potential candidates to meet the USP/EP criteria (Table 4). Both formulations demonstrated a complete kill of the tested bacterial and fungal species after 7 days. For all other samples, either the total bacterial count after 7 days was too numerous to count, or no effective reduction in the bacterial count was observed."
"Benzyl alcohol caused significant aggregation at high concentrations (≥1.0%); however, it was the most effective preservative in maintaining antimicrobial efficacy against bacteria and fungi."
http://www.aapspharmsci.org/view.asp?art=ps050208
And in the end it's just not necessary IMO. Maybe this will help convince some people that they're not gonna die if they don't bake the sh*t out of their juice. Concentrate on clean conditions, proper technique, use a good filter (.2 micron) and you should be fine.
Development of a Multidose Formulation for a Humanized Monoclonal Antibody Using Experimental Design Techniques
"The efficacy of the preservative against various microorganisms was measured using a modified USP/EP PET (referred to as preservative screening test in this document). Tests were conducted at Microconsult Inc (Dallas, TX). In the procedure, formulations were tested against the following microorganisms: Escherichia coli, Staphylococcus aureus, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Candida albicans, and Aspergillus niger. The 3 bacterial strains were inoculated together at a total concentration of ~105 cfu/mL, as were the 2 fungi. Samples were incubated for 7 days at room temperature (25°C), and the total bacterial and fungal counts were measured using a colony counter. The log reduction (LR) values for the bacterial and fungal counts were calculated as log (initial count/final count)."
"Results of the preservative screening tests showed that the formulations containing 0.75% and 0.5% benzyl alcohol are potential candidates to meet the USP/EP criteria (Table 4). Both formulations demonstrated a complete kill of the tested bacterial and fungal species after 7 days. For all other samples, either the total bacterial count after 7 days was too numerous to count, or no effective reduction in the bacterial count was observed."
"Benzyl alcohol caused significant aggregation at high concentrations (≥1.0%); however, it was the most effective preservative in maintaining antimicrobial efficacy against bacteria and fungi."
http://www.aapspharmsci.org/view.asp?art=ps050208
Guvna
New member
chefbone said:I never said to heat the gear....just the store bought grapeseed oil used to cut the gear. Are you fucking retarded? Find a link to the definition and technique of sterilization. Read It. 'Nuff said.
Hasta la bye-bye!!!!
you still havent read a thing.
Gear in oil, or plain oil. Heating DOESNT DO SHIT (unless you want to fry your oil)
Last edited:
Goldprospector
New member
My thoughts excactly!!! When companies refer to a sterile filter...the filter itself has been sterilized...that means it is "contaminant free" It does NOT mean it will sterilize your oil.
BUT, I do agree that you can go to the store and by oil ( of different kinds) and then sterilize it with heat and then filter it...and it will be fine for cutting your gear. I have done this numerous times without any problems!
_Yossarian_
New member
wouldn't a .2 micron filter only remove microbes that are .2 microns in size or bigger? what about everything else?
The only way to be 100% sure that all bacteria (with the exception of a single cell microbe called strain 121 which can withstand temps of over 121 Celcius) has been removed is to use an autoclave ie heat.
The only way to be 100% sure that all bacteria (with the exception of a single cell microbe called strain 121 which can withstand temps of over 121 Celcius) has been removed is to use an autoclave ie heat.
_Yossarian_
New member
Guvna said:
even if its sealed in a vial? then how do you get rid of any microbes smaller than .2 microns?
_Yossarian_
New member
lol, nevermind.
I didnt even see the novel you posted on the 1st page.
I didnt even see the novel you posted on the 1st page.
_Yossarian_
New member
LVTitan said:
this right here, is why I dont make my own gear, lol
Guvna
New member
_Yossarian_ said:
you dont. However, Almost all of them are above .2 microns. The BA is hopefully good enough for any others.
Its not perfect, by any means. That is why such a *clean* environment is so important. Pure powders, clean evironment. Prevention is the key, as shown by human grade manufacturing standards.
i agree with guvna. The smallest bacteria is .25 micrometers. Our hospital sterilizes IVs with .2 micron filters. And, you definitely shouldn't autoclave anything oil-based. You could either bake it in an oven and get the oil's temp 150 - 170 C for not less than 2 hours, but that is just ridiculous when you can just filter it and add some BA.
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