"Where are you getting your carbs from!?!?!"

[Burning_Inside]

I just got home from the gym. i asked this one older lady there, who's really ripped, what kind of brand mrp she was having. She said it was a myoplex light something or other and she actually offered me one, and I told her no thanks I'm on a no carb diet. And suddnely she gets this weird look on her face, kinda like someone told her 2+2 equalas ten in all relatiy, and proceeds to ask me "well what do you mean no carb?" i said well, I'm on a ketogenic diet, so i'm not supposed to be taking in any carbs really, maybe a trace few here and there but that's about it. I asked her if she knew anything about the diet so I didn't have to make a long drawn out story about what it's all about, and he said she knew a lot about it. She then asked What i was eating and I spouted off the usual keto foods. She shook her head and walked away and said "that's not healthy". i told her in the long run it really isn't I guess, but of you want to drop fat it's a really easy way to do it as long as you have decent amounts of willpower. I told her I tried one 2 years ago and It did really good. She then told me (thinking I was starving myself I guess) how that when i come off the diet and start eating normal again, I was going to baloon up because carbohydrates contain water and they're going to fill me up with it. Soooooooo, i just figured in my mind whatever, and Just said that didn't happen to me when I last tried the diet..it happened when I started eating too much. Haha.

Well anyway, it just surprises me how pissed she seemed that i wasn't taking in any carbs, even taking into consideration that she said she knew a lot about the diet. i guess she really didn't, . I mean ok, you're at 7% bodyfat, and you got there by eating carbs, well, there's other ways to get there too ya know?

 

[Valdez]

yeah, see if she can get me to 4% bodyfat from 8.5% in 7.5 weeks and then we will talk.

 

[Burning_Inside]

Wow valdez, is 4% even healthy? haha

 

[cozmokramer]

4%... wow... healthy or not I'd like to be there!

 

[Mr.X]

Wait, Wait, I want to flame the lady.
Fact:
1-If the lady is ripped (below 12-15%bf)=she uses steroids...period
2-If the lady says it's not healthy=she's ignorant
3-Did you know that obese people are usually put on the Ketonic diet...wait...it's not healthy, so why make an obese person less healthy? BECAUSE IT'S MORE HEALTHY TO BE ON THE DIET AND LOOSE WEIGHT THEN BE OBESE AND DIE OF A HEART ATTACK/STROKE/DIABETES.
4-Ignorance is a bliss
5-She has the brain of a 5 year old, why...well, you never make childish comments to someone that is trying to tell you how hard they work
6-Never listen to moron ladies at the gym, can the lady show Me her Ph.D. in physical science or maybe 6 years of bio-chemistry??? can she ??? no, but I can sure show her.... USF, Ph.D. in physical science with a double major in chemistry and botanical sciences..Did my Ph.D. paper with Dr. Woodemore of NJ...period,...end of story

Sorry, I hate people that try to put other people down, even though they know how hard the other person works.
Mr.X

 

[keiko]

But there are other diets that work besides ketonic. I eat Isocaloric (and I think Dan Duchaine had a clue when he wrote about it) so don't get your back up. Not every one wants to cut carbs out or has good results when they do so. Whatever works for your body is the best diet. Some people like Anabolics, some CKD, etc.

Not to get into a real argument, but I think a number of people eat ketonic or low-carb cuz it's the only diet they've ever heard of.

 

[MS]

Now now Mr X. Of course I would never trash someone's diet unless they asked for my opinion so I'm not really like the lady in question. But I have no problem getting down to 7-8% WITHOUT steroids and with plenty of carbs. And I think I have qualifications that would satisfy the harshest critic.

So I would take exception to point number one for sure.

Points two and three are argueable. From memory burning is on a CKD, which is not the same as a true keto diet that is saving fat peoples lives. I would argue that a CYCLICAL keto diet is not healthy, just effective. Liposuction is also effective, as is stomach stapling, but I would not consider these 'healthy' either. Burning is also not fat, he's just vain and wants to look buff. And we all know a LOT of bodybuilders WILL do unhealthy things to their bodies in the name of vanity.

Point four I totally agree with.

Point five is undeniable

Point six....well maybe she has the credentials and maybe she doesn't. Many people would consider their GP or medical specialist to have excellent credentials and they can still give ya bum advice, so caveat emptor. A qualification is just a piece of paper which often only shows you've hung around in the same field long enough to have tunnel vision!

How's the diet going burning??

 

[Rudee34]

MS is correct. Personally, it's my opinion that if one needs advice, it's advisable to ask those who have travelled the same path you are on, as opposed to those that have arrived at the destination via other means. i.e. if you want big biceps it makes more sense to take advise from a guy who once had small biceps, then made them big, than the guy who has always had big biceps. Genetically gifted people are the last people you want to get advise from.

As far as Ketogenic diets, and their many varations go, there's lots of experienced members here including myself who have followed that same path you are on now. It's these experienced opinions that matter.

 

[Burning_Inside]

Hi again, well, i know she's definately at 7% because my friend works at the gym and did her body fat test. As for being on steroids, Who knows anything's possible.

Keiko, I think we know there's other diets besides keto, i even said something about that in my original post. I said ok, she got there eating carbs, fine well there's also other ways to get there.

Why do i do a keto diet? Cause it's easy, and I have no money for sipplements. I just got done doing a month of an isocaloric diet with about 3-4 days of an hours worth of cardio per day, and 3 days of lifting, and I dropped shit. Not in any mood to bullshit around and figure out where I'm going wrong inm y diet, i said fuck it and went keto.

results so far since monday: !/2 inch lost off the gut. Now at 37 1/2 inch waist at 6'3" .

 

[wynnyelle]

good for you! I personally am doing a balanced diet, carbs and all, taking fat burners and losing my gut too. Bit by bit, it's a slow process, but I'm taking it slow because the faster you go the more likely you are to lose muscle too.

mr x: It is totally possible for a woman to drop her bodyfat below 12% WITHOUT steroids. I've been below that most of my life, and been healthy. Am probably about 11-12% at the moment, dunno for sure about the numbers, I don't bother with numbers. I just bother with what I see in the mirror. No six pack yet=another day of dieting.

 

[Mr.X]

Ok, I need to correct myself, I was very "hot" when I wrote the reply.

Virtually, no women can get down below 12%bf without steroids. But, there are ALWAYS exception, I can't argue with genetics. Now, to prove my theory of 12%bf limit: I will tell everyone, basically, that every woman I have worked with had the problem of getting down below 12%bf (naturally, because I do not believe in steroid use by women). It was just impossible, no matter what we tried, it is a fact, in my view, that estrogen and progesterone is a part of this problem. However, when I did my study, I concluded that 70% of women over 30 had a problem getting under 15%bf. (only 500 women studied) I have yet to publish the results.

P.S. there is always that 30% of women that can achieve that goal

Mr.X

 

[natglutes]

I concluded that 70% of women over 30 had a problem getting under 15%bf. (only 500 women studied) I have yet to publish the results.

What, Im over 30 and my BF is 12%............

 

[DIESEL_5]

women can DEFINITELY get below 12% BF without steroids. it's all genetics. my ex-gf used to eat sugary things quite often and could basically eat whatever she wanted and was 10% bf. you could see every detail of every muscle in her body. it was all genetics for her.

 

[MS]

I will agree estrogen/progesterone is the biggest prob women face when dieting. In my experience (far less than 500 women though) it is much easier for older women to achieve this goal BECAUSE their estrogen levels are lower. I will also admit to using Nolvadex for the last 6 weeks of my precomp diets. But in my honest experience the majority of women that attempt dieting to very low %bf purely do not have the discipline or knowledge to stick it out sensibly and rationally. It's not just about physiology or genetics. It is a HUGE psychological battle as well. I find it hard to get even very motivated women to eat enough calories for effective long term weight loss. Many women also do not go all out with the heavy weights even when they think they are. How often do you see a woman go to absolute positive failure on squats??? Instead they keep hopping on those stupid cardio machines and grind away some more muscle instead of building it. Well I know that's a gross generalization, but you gotta admit that women and men do not approach dieting with the same mindset.

 

[Mr.X]

Remember that the older a woman gets the "lower" the estrogen, but metabolic rate is slowed down significantly too. So it's a stick with two ends. You see, I personally consider nolvadex a drug (although it is an anit-estrogen).

Well, I don't think this thread is going anywhere. We are not helping anyone here.

As for natglutes, yes you are a woman in her 30's and yes you are 12%bf. Can you get below that?

Mr.X

 

[MS]

Yes we're certainly off topic. Of course Nolvadex is a drug, so is ephedrine. In neither case are they the same as steroids, but both can aid women in fatloss. As a side note there is not a lot of evidence that nolvadex assists in losing stubborn lower body fat. As another genetically gifted freak you have my training partner, female, 45 years old. The only 'drug' she took was ephedrine. She was totally ripped (WELL below 10%bf) at her first ever competition and took first place (in the over 35's) at regionals, and third place at nationals. And I'm joking about her being genetically gifted. She is normally a little on the rounded side. She got lean and mean by eating, training and totally focusing just like I did. Lower meatbolism is a relative thing. My training partner didn't start weight training until her late 30's, so for her adding LBM has increased her metabolism miles above what it was when she was a younger couch potato. I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but I get really really tired of people taking it as a "fact" that a women must be using steroids because she can get lean and retain muscle by following a strict well thought out diet and training plan. I agree with MR X on many things, and I realize you have a very strong background in this field, but I would love to see this study of yours published, or at least find out more details about how these 500 women attempted to lower their bodyfat below 15%.

Natglutes, do you WANT to get below 12%??

 

[Mr.X]

I'll keep this short.... Yes, Nolvadex has the "properties" of helping "stubborn" bodyfat areas. I have actually, tried it myself (male) in order to see the big picture. The only thing, is that it is a prescription drug and is prescribed after used of steroids in order to keep estrogen levels down, in post cycles. There is virtually no possibility of getting Nolvadex in the same way you can get ephedrine in HCL form (norephedrine). (HCL=pharmasutical grade).

As far as the study goes, it's simple, and I do not like having any arguments about it, it is basically from facts. I cannot publish it because I did not fund it, so it is not my decision, but I will promote my own study on the west-coast and then and only then we can truly grasp the concept of women and weight-loss.
Mr.X

 

[MS]

I don't mind if you haven't published your results, I merely am interested to know how these hundreds of women attempted to lose fat. In my personal research I have found that almost ANY normal weight woman can get very lean without steroids. She just needs the right advice and close monitoring/whip cracking to get there. Put another way, it is bloody hard and she needs to be extremely motivated and constantly kept on track. She has to have full support of her family and friends, and has to be willing to give up her social life and many other things that most women are not willing to give up for 12-16 weeks. Meeting these criteria have nothing to do with being a female, in other words it is not a physiological problem innate to women. It is more of a social/psychological hurdle IMHO.

As for the nolvadex, it's interesting how different countries treat different drugs. Where I live nolvadex and steroids are not illegal (mainly because they are not considered overly dangerous) but ephedrine IS illegal. As far as the IOC is concerned, steroids and ephedrine are illegal, but nolvadex isn't. So I don't put any stock in what's available to people in specific locations. BTW if you're a female living in America and want to try Nolvadex you can spin a story to your doctor about how breast cancer runs strongly in your family and how both your sisters are already on preventative Nolvadex maintenance. Barring this it is not illegal to import Nolvadex in the sense that you will not go to prison if you get caught bringing it into the country. In no way is it in the same class as steroids.

And I really would like to hear more about your research MrX. Maybe via email if you don't want to broadcast it all over the net? I promise I won't tell anyone