What's the deal with dairy and cutting?

[SteelWeaver]

Why do so many bodybuilders drop dairy products when cutting? Surely if you get the low fat/non-fat varieties you're sitting there with a beautiful, clean protein source?

(I want to know if it's worth taking the time to teach myself how to make my own cottage cheese - you can't buy low or non-fat here, and I figure home-made will be even cleaner, additive-wise. This could be the beginning of a whole new career opportunity!!)

So, what's the dairy deal??

 

[Sassy69]

dairy = lactose = simple sugar source.....?

BTW I got monumentally dairy intolerant as i got close to comp time anyway.

 

[Gladiola]

dairy = lactose = simple sugar source.....?

That's what I've heard too. Don't know tho

 

[MS]

In general, dairy products are considered as a relatively high sodium source of non-fiber carbs, protein and fat. Specifically cottage cheese is nothing to worry about (compared to whole milk, ice cream or cheddar cheese for instance). As long as the cottage cheese fits into your daily allowance of fats, carbs and sodium then you have nothing to worry about (BTW lactose is a pretty low GI carb). Because casein (the main protein in cottage cheese) is very slow to digest, it makes an excellent bedtime food, especially if combined with some fibrous veggies. I would definitely recommend you drop the cottage cheese the week before your competition though.

Let's get our brains in gear here. Whey is a dairy product, and you'd be hard pressed to find a bodybuilder that doesn't consume whey in their cutting diet!

 

[SteelWeaver]

Ahh, sodium. Well, I'm certain to have lots of questions about that soon enough.

I cut out cheese long ago , but I really enjoy cottage cheese, and was thinking that if I could make a non-fat, and even possibly non-salt, variety for myself, I could, first of all, learn a useful new skill (!), and second of all, save myself a bunch of unhealthy fat grams every day that I could put to better use with yummy things like healthy peanut butter, or nuts, or even the famed flax oil that everybody keeps talking about.

This thinking is not unreasonable, right?

Mmm, yes, whey - I guess I was thinking about real food.

I don't really know what lactose-intolerance does Sassy, but I could eat a whole wheel of cheese and feel nothing but satisfied! Do you get sick?

OOp! You mentioned the dreaded final pre-contest week, MS. As I'm sure you can imagine, there is a FLUUURRRRY of questions building in my mind - pretty soon I'm going to have to EXPLODE onto the board with them! I DO hope you're going to be around for the excitment!

And naturally, everyone else is invited, too!

 

[wilson6]

Like other food myths, the diary one comes from bodybuilder fairy tale land.

Unless there's a problem with lactose (i.e., it blows you up with gas) or you have a food allergy, dairy is fine as long as it is low fat and fits into the diet.

Don't even know why sodium is an issue anymore. The sodium thing went out with the dinosaurs.

Many competitors keep sodium in through the show. Keeps you full, properly hydrated, prevents cramps and fatigue, allows one to carb up and keeps you from becoming sodium sensitive (i.e., a few milligrams causes water retention).

W6

 

[tripleV]

cool! Cause i cannot drink my shakes with anything other than good ol milk!!!

 

[Gladiola]

Unless there's a problem with lactose (i.e., it blows you up with gas) or you have a food allergy, dairy is fine as long as it is low fat and fits into the diet.

Don't even know why sodium is an issue anymore. The sodium thing went out with the dinosaurs.

YEEEAAH <Gladi's Dance of JOY>

Cuz I eat about 1 cup skim milk, 1 cup Low fat cottage cheese, 1 oz low fat mozzeralla cheese, & 1 cup fat-free yougart almost *every* day. I sprinkle salt on veggies & egg whites too... so this is thrilling news to me that these aren't habits to worry about!

 

[MS]

LOL, now I'm a dinosaur. As I've said many times, I am sodium sensitive so I always mention this as something to watch out for in case it's a prob for you. Sodium also seems to increase appetite in females (but not males for some strange reason), so reducing it while cutting might be worth considering. By reducing it, I mean keep it under 5 grams per day (which is plenty), but you may want to go easy on the soy sauce, etc...

As far as the last week precomp, well that's still 5 months away, so stay cool. There are about as many different ways to successfully carb load, dehydrate blah blah blah, as there are ways to diet for a show. Some of them involve sodium loading, superhydration, some involve sodium depletion with potassium loading, some of them don't manipulate sodium at all. At the pro (and amateur) level many of them also include herbal or potassium sparing pharmaceutical diuretics.

 

[SteelWeaver]

Don't even know why sodium is an issue anymore. The sodium thing went out with the dinosaurs.

Many competitors keep sodium in through the show. Keeps you full, properly hydrated, prevents cramps and fatigue, allows one to carb up and keeps you from becoming sodium sensitive (i.e., a few milligrams causes water retention).

W6

YAAAYYY! [Dancing gleefully with Gladiola!]

Have been reading about sodium and potassium loading, depleting, etc., thinking it complicates my life exponentially - so this is very good news - will be back for more on this later.

This means I don't have to leave the salt out of the recipe, right?

LOL, now I'm a dinosaur. As I've said many times, I am sodium sensitive so I always mention this as something to watch out for in case it's a prob for you. Sodium also seems to increase appetite in females (but not males for some strange reason), so reducing it while cutting might be worth considering. By reducing it, I mean keep it under 5 grams per day (which is plenty), but you may want to go easy on the soy sauce, etc...

What kind? I'd say brontosaurus, because you're veggie, but you're too smart for that. Maybe a pteradactyl? (sp?) (Is it true that brontosauruses had another brain near their tail to control the rear half of their bodies, because they were too big for just the one brain?)

How do you know if you're sodium sensitive? I have cut down a lot on what I sprinkle on food - only on breakfast omelette nowadays. I used to eat tons of soy sauce with my tofu, but ever since I had to add my tofu allowance to egg whites to make them taste less bad, I've cut it out. I'm too pudgy to tell if I hold water or not - except for mentrual days.

5 months seems very short at this stage. I see a frenzy similar to the diet one, but greatly magnified.

 

[MS]

I limit my sodium intake when I'm cutting because sodium makes me retain a lot of fluid. This, in itself, is not a hinderance to fatloss. However it makes gauging my progress difficult if the scales are changing all the time. One way around this is to measure your sodium intake just like you macronutrient intake. In other words, work your diet so you know you're getting X grams of sodium per day (no more, no less). Then you know that weight fluctuations are not caused by sodium balance. I also limit my sodium because I am prone to essential hypertension, and my father and grandfather have died from heart failure, but this is irrelevant to you if this is not an issue. The best way to tell if your sodium sensitive is to follow a low salt cutting diet for a few weeks (and make sure you're losing weight). Then have your weight and BP measured. The next week add salt into your diet and have your weight and BP remeasured. If your weight or BP has increased (and nothing else has changed in your diet/training except the sodium), then there's a good chance you're sensitive. It's not really anything to worry about except that it can affect the weight readings.

This is all pretty off the cuff. Hormonal changes due to stress, menstral stage, heat, humidity etc...can also affect water balance. The most important thing is to drink PLENTY of water, no matter what you eat.

 

[Sassy69]

Good stuff - thx for the enlightenment of this occassional visitor to bb fairytale land!

And they all lived lactosily ever after...!

 

[wilson6]

If you blow up from the sodium in your toothpaste.

Unless you have a blood pressure problem, sodium is a good thing.

What causes sodium sensitivity is a low sodium diet. When you're intake of sodium is high, you will excrete the sodium. If you're taking in 5 grams a day and take in an extra 250 mg on top of that from some food source, then that represents an increase of only 5% and it's unlikely to cause any water retention. On the other hand, if you're only taking in a gram a day, 250 mg = 25% and is likely to cause some water retention. Water follows sodium and sodium balance (the time it takes your body to adjust to increased or decreased sodium intake) is about 36 hrs. That's the concept of sodium loading. Increase your uptake about 10 days before a show (you'll blow up and hold water for a couple of days) then the body will dump the xs sodium and the body will drop the extra water. 36 hrs from prejudging, cut the sodium in half, which means you'll still be taking in about 2 grams. Because your body is used to dumping the xs, you'll drop water.

My client didn't really mess with sodium at all for her show. Just kept both sodium and water in right through except the water in the morning to make weight, then she added some back in.

W6

 

[MS]

Sodium/potassium balance is prolly more important than sodium intake alone. But as long as you're eating lots of fresh veggies you should be fine. Just keep that appetite thing in mind.

A lot of the post competition fluid gain you hear and see is a direct result of sodium/potassium manipulation. If you don't want to go through this, then you definitely want to avoid sodium loading/depletion.

I've seen a guy take out best of show by carbing up on anything he wanted (KFC/McD's/Pizza Hut), all high salt foods (he also took SlowK). He basically took in NO water so he couldn't hold it! He was one miserable guy though. It's hard to imagine the crazy thirst he went through. I had a client with kidney problems who merely cut back a little on her water intake. She took out first in her class. So there's lots of different ways to skin a cat, and there's probably not a topic more controversial in bodybuilding. I'm sure you'll have endless hours agonizing over this one. For novice competitors I usually recommend 5 days of over hydration followed by 24-36 hours of cutting back on the water, plus some herbal diuretics. No need to mess with mineral balance.

 

[SteelWeaver]

Heh heh - thanks - no agony yet, but I just KNOW as I get leaner and actually able to SEE water retention in my body (like I said, it's kind of indiscernable from fat right now), I'll be spending hours researching the effects of sodium and potassium on the body ...

I don't think I'm sodium sensitive, and BP is fine - my body seems to be built like a brick shit house. With the battering I've given it in the past, I'm not surprised!

So I won't have to drink distilled water? Because you can't buy that here - well, not easily. You can get 500ml bottles from the drug store for medical purposes, and I heard you can buy bigger quantities from science lab supply stores. Someone I know has a distiller that they don't want any more ... I don't need it?

Speaking of veggies ... Is it possible to eat too many - I mean, like enough to affect one's diet? I LOVE veggies, but I wonder if the carbs don't add up. Let's say, half a green pepper, a celery stick, a mini cucumber, a small zucchini - I get through these over and above some spinach and broccoli that are in the daily diet plan already. Too much?

Is it true that fibrous veggies take almost as much energy to digest as they provide?

 

[MS]

?????"That's it! You've been spending too much time reading W6's posts. Back away from the keyboard"...??????????????? Spats?????????

Umm, whatever. I don't eat dairy. I am allergic to dairy protien (as opposed to lactose intolerance). So I am stating a fact. Whey is a dairy product. If you happen to be lactose intolerant than you should also be aware that all wheys are not created equal. Some are higher in lactose than others. It doesn't sound to me like SteelWeaver has a problem with lactose, so it's all academic. Other than that, veggies are good. Eat as many fibrous veggies as you want (for now). In your last week you may have to limit these just to minimize lower abdominal bloating (not a good look on stage!)

Oops Spatterson. I just realized (I think) that I'm being too analytical and too detached (is that what you meant?). My apologies. I'm sure I'll be back to normal soon

As for water retention/sodium sensitivity-I will lose 3-4kg in a one week by just limiting my sodium intake to two grams (that's~5 grams of table salt) per day. This is coming off a high sodium and high fluid diet. That's how you know for sure that you're sodium sensitive. My BP also drops tremendously. I feel better, I look better, but I still crave salt like a madman.

 

[MS]

Oh, thanks for the clarification. I would hate for ya'll to think I was buying leather loungerie for my partner, or otherwise mistake me for W6....

 

[SteelWeaver]