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I think it is a good topic for discussion......profuel From: "James Sammuel Damon" People are constantly advised not to take in tamoxifen becuase of the notion that it will limit their gains.It will not. In fact,usued correctly during a steroid cycle, it will increase gains. First, a matter of definition, both grammatical and muscular. How often do you hear of people saying "I took Dianabol and 'gained' 30lbs but when I stopped, lost 20 lb?" This gives rise to the notion that some steroids exist whereby you are more likley to keep your gains after finishing the cycle, than others. This is bollocks. Let us address the matter of definition.The "gains" you lose,(Provided you use a correct "anciliary" drug program, and have not exceeded your natural ability to balance day to day catabolism) are water, and usually gynoid fat deposition. Lets be realistic. Does your girlfriend, when she starts taking the contraceptive pill come excitadly up to you and say "I took levorgenestinal for just one week and gained 5lbs!" No. However, with this mentality, why dont the "vets" who flame "newbies" for not having done their research start advising people to take female hormones, contraceptive pills and the like? Instead they advise you not to take an anti estrogen unless you feel puffy nipples or something. Well done guys. Does anyone actually start on a cycle hoping soon that water retention will obscure their facial features, that they will cease to look defined, have fat hands and saggy tits?I think not. So why do people advise against working tamoxifen into a cycle, saying it will limit gains? If you class water retention and female fat pattern deposition as "Gain", then just take progesterone, it's quite cheap, drink loads of water and eat.And get the moodswings and lack of rationality that your girlfriend gets on a monthly basis. The fact that the 'excess' estrogen build up can be traced back to the aromatisation of the steroids, could tennuosly be termed as "steroid induced gains". But if you're so interested in that, why do we have a black market for lasix? Also, The more you stretch your skin with water, the more likley you are to get stretch marks, which are really attractive, rarely if at all does anyone get them due to pure muscle growth. Likewise, the more times you strech it, the less likley it will be to stretch back, leaving you looking haggard and old. So, no Nolvadex until the first signs of gyno still sounding like a good idea? As for estrogen induced water retention lubricating muscle, permitting easier lifting, why not just incorporate some deca in with your next cycle? So, can Nolvadex taken during a cycle actually INCREASE gains..? Yes. Notice two things. People who use HCG during a cycle, report greater increase in strength etcetc, whilst using the HCG adjunctivley. The rationale for this is simple. You now have two sources of testosterone.Endogenous and Exogenous. Which basicallly equates to being a testosterone fuelled adolescent again, taking steroids aswell. A potent combination. Basically endogenous+exogenous=more testosterone! What you must also considor is that the body has an ability to produce far more testosterone & growth hormone than it actually does. So if you considor that the average range of testosterone production for a male to be between 2.5-11mg p/day, and that the ability of the body to exceed this threshold exists, it simply requires a little tinkering with the circuitry of its feedback mechanisms. Imagine we could cause the body for a week (7 days) to double its production in someone for simplicitys sake, was producing 10mg/d. you now have an extra 70mg of testosterone circulating per week. Keep this level increasing for a few weeks, and the figure continues to rise. So will an extra 70mg of testosterone add to gains in the midst of a 600mg/week enanthate cycle..?Marginally, or at least, barely perceptably. However, will it limit your gains? NO. Were Nolvadex to be introduced at the first sign of puffy nipples, in the usual dose range 10-30mg/day, the effects on your atrophied testicles would be virtually zero. More likely you would need a lutenizing hormone analouge at this point. However, taken from the outset in a sufficiant dose, the receptors for the negative feedback in the hypothalmus and pituatary axis can be saturated (bear in mind the compound has a half life of 7 days), thus preventing testicular shutdown. This would also allow prevention against the rapid onset of estrogen buildup, if the dose was taken the morning on the day before your enanthate shot.(As blood levels are usually thought to peak anywhere between 24-72 hours after administration.) All this still allows for the continued use, corresponding (Marginal)increase in gains, but without desensitizing the body to tamoxifen.
In anabolics 2000, Bill llew. again states that Nolvadex is not usually thought of as an equel substitute for resuming natural testosterone production,(as clomid) although possibly this beleif should be re-evaluated. It should. Structurally the tamoxifen and clomiphene molecules are very similar, so why do people differenciate? Two reasons, superstition, and the average strenths of 'commercially' available tablets. Tamoxifen on average comes in tablets strengths of 10mgs. Clomiphene in 50mgs. The dose for management of breast cancer for tamoxifen is between 10-30mgs p/d. However, the dose for STIMULATION OF OVULATION is 40mgs, morning and night. Anybody with a brain at this point will have concluded this 'debate' already. So, people take 100mg of clomid initially and then reduce to 50mg. wheras you'd take 80mg of nolvadex initially,then reduce to 40. On a milligram for milligram basis, who wins? But, You must considor somebody taking 8 nolvadex tablets daily, as opposed to 2 clomids.Its like offering a child 50 pence in one penny pieces or a two pound coin.You know which one it'll choose. Unfortuanatly, bodybuilding information is kept in the childlike phase. Let us for a moment examine how the respective agents work at restoring tetosterone production. HCG is a lutinizing hormone analouge, that in laymens terms sends a direct signal to the testicles to produce testosterone. This is the 'shock tactic', and can actually desensitize them to it ultimatly, which would compromise the effiacy of other methods, and that one. Opinions vary as wheter to take 4 relativly large descending shots, or to take daily, or E.O.D tiny shots. My personal opion is the 4 large descending provided it is coupled with either Nolvadex,clomid,or cyclofenil. The downside to either method is that it is a little unweidly, so to speak, as it increases the rate of aromatization, making one of the 3 above mentioned drugs a neccesity, especially at this point in the cycle. The way the other drugs function N/C/C function is by preventing the body from reading 'androgen/estrogen/progestin' overload, and shutting down the release of gonadotrophins, which in turn stimulates el bollocks to do their business. As you can see, this is more long winded and subtle way of doing things, and if you desensitize yourself on HCG, you'll have problems with these methods also, same receptor, different chain of command. Negative feedback, but you can either wait for your testicles to atrophy, or prevent it, the choice is yours. Gain 15lbs in water, and lose your bollocks. Lastly, some anacdotal evidence. I just finished a cycle of D/bol,winstrol, halotestin, and propionate. (I know, easy on the 17aa's!)I didn't use an antiest to test this theory during, and was dosing the d/bol morning and night with the specific intent of shutting of production. 40mg of nolvadex,morning, noon, and night (120 in total), and within 48 hours, my balls were bigger than before I started, which I think rather concludes this section of the debate. Suffice to mention, (anacdotally), I took 40 mg of nolvadex (20mg twice per day), prior to this cycle. Have you ever had it, when you work out, you look stripped to fuck, but then by the end of the day, you've filled out again? Well, unless you're clueles about diet, it's most likley estrogen thats the culprit. When I started takikng nolvadex, I stripped down in three days, lost a quarter of a stone (water, and "stubborn" fat) (Noticably), saw my cheekbones for the first time in years, & got spots. So nolvadex alone can cause a rise in testosterone so rapid in certain individuals, it can cause androgenic side effects. SO, WILL TAKING NOLVADEX DURING A CYCLE LIMIT GAINS OF QUALITY MUSCLE MASS..? Just remember guys. My maths (and spelling) is shit, I know nothing about accountancy, and I don't give a fuck. If someone tells me something about it, I'm most likley going to beleive, remember it, and in future conversations, drop it in, just to sound clued up.See a parralell here? The average person doesn't give a shit whether you live or die, and as to wheter you use anabolic steroids.. "anabolic what?!?!" Don't waste time on these paradoxes. The only time people care is when they're with their partners, they're girlfriend sees a guy with a good physique and gets wet, the guy says, "He's obviously got no bollocks!" Just to console his own inadaquacies. People would take them if a doctor said there were no side effetcs, so, they are not bad of themselves, just the 'inherent' (due to ignorence) risk factor. Imagine trying to police a country of people on anadrol.."You're Nicked mate!" "Fuck you!" bang. Another paradox,athletes are usually muscular, which you would assume contribujtes in part to their sucess, yet Even in the latest BNF, by stanozolol and nadrolone decan. it says their use is unjustified and pointless. This is a section of the book entitled "anabolic steroids" Please remind me, what does "anabolic" by definition mean...?Don't waste your time on these morons and their herd instincts, fuck em, the less people who use juice, for us the better, we're the few superhumans, bad luck to the dealers of course. As for the orignial thread, don't be so fucking arrogant as to flame a newbie when he asks "can I drink winnie", because lets face it, you were not born with that knowladge, and found out from somewhere, and even after 20 years of using gear, even bill roberts and llew. I suspect would admit that we know fuck all compared to what we will know in 20 years from now
after reading this my doubts about whether to take novadex wer erased and i decided to take 20 mgED instead of ten
then i wondered if this could be a viable safe alternative for women to use to gain muscle mass instead of or stacked with less AAS .
ANYBODY GOT ANY OPINIONS ON THAT?
In anabolics 2000, Bill llew. again states that Nolvadex is not usually thought of as an equel substitute for resuming natural testosterone production,(as clomid) although possibly this beleif should be re-evaluated. It should. Structurally the tamoxifen and clomiphene molecules are very similar, so why do people differenciate? Two reasons, superstition, and the average strenths of 'commercially' available tablets. Tamoxifen on average comes in tablets strengths of 10mgs. Clomiphene in 50mgs. The dose for management of breast cancer for tamoxifen is between 10-30mgs p/d. However, the dose for STIMULATION OF OVULATION is 40mgs, morning and night. Anybody with a brain at this point will have concluded this 'debate' already. So, people take 100mg of clomid initially and then reduce to 50mg. wheras you'd take 80mg of nolvadex initially,then reduce to 40. On a milligram for milligram basis, who wins? But, You must considor somebody taking 8 nolvadex tablets daily, as opposed to 2 clomids.Its like offering a child 50 pence in one penny pieces or a two pound coin.You know which one it'll choose. Unfortuanatly, bodybuilding information is kept in the childlike phase. Let us for a moment examine how the respective agents work at restoring tetosterone production. HCG is a lutinizing hormone analouge, that in laymens terms sends a direct signal to the testicles to produce testosterone. This is the 'shock tactic', and can actually desensitize them to it ultimatly, which would compromise the effiacy of other methods, and that one. Opinions vary as wheter to take 4 relativly large descending shots, or to take daily, or E.O.D tiny shots. My personal opion is the 4 large descending provided it is coupled with either Nolvadex,clomid,or cyclofenil. The downside to either method is that it is a little unweidly, so to speak, as it increases the rate of aromatization, making one of the 3 above mentioned drugs a neccesity, especially at this point in the cycle. The way the other drugs function N/C/C function is by preventing the body from reading 'androgen/estrogen/progestin' overload, and shutting down the release of gonadotrophins, which in turn stimulates el bollocks to do their business. As you can see, this is more long winded and subtle way of doing things, and if you desensitize yourself on HCG, you'll have problems with these methods also, same receptor, different chain of command. Negative feedback, but you can either wait for your testicles to atrophy, or prevent it, the choice is yours. Gain 15lbs in water, and lose your bollocks. Lastly, some anacdotal evidence. I just finished a cycle of D/bol,winstrol, halotestin, and propionate. (I know, easy on the 17aa's!)I didn't use an antiest to test this theory during, and was dosing the d/bol morning and night with the specific intent of shutting of production. 40mg of nolvadex,morning, noon, and night (120 in total), and within 48 hours, my balls were bigger than before I started, which I think rather concludes this section of the debate. Suffice to mention, (anacdotally), I took 40 mg of nolvadex (20mg twice per day), prior to this cycle. Have you ever had it, when you work out, you look stripped to fuck, but then by the end of the day, you've filled out again? Well, unless you're clueles about diet, it's most likley estrogen thats the culprit. When I started takikng nolvadex, I stripped down in three days, lost a quarter of a stone (water, and "stubborn" fat) (Noticably), saw my cheekbones for the first time in years, & got spots. So nolvadex alone can cause a rise in testosterone so rapid in certain individuals, it can cause androgenic side effects. SO, WILL TAKING NOLVADEX DURING A CYCLE LIMIT GAINS OF QUALITY MUSCLE MASS..? Just remember guys. My maths (and spelling) is shit, I know nothing about accountancy, and I don't give a fuck. If someone tells me something about it, I'm most likley going to beleive, remember it, and in future conversations, drop it in, just to sound clued up.See a parralell here? The average person doesn't give a shit whether you live or die, and as to wheter you use anabolic steroids.. "anabolic what?!?!" Don't waste time on these paradoxes. The only time people care is when they're with their partners, they're girlfriend sees a guy with a good physique and gets wet, the guy says, "He's obviously got no bollocks!" Just to console his own inadaquacies. People would take them if a doctor said there were no side effetcs, so, they are not bad of themselves, just the 'inherent' (due to ignorence) risk factor. Imagine trying to police a country of people on anadrol.."You're Nicked mate!" "Fuck you!" bang. Another paradox,athletes are usually muscular, which you would assume contribujtes in part to their sucess, yet Even in the latest BNF, by stanozolol and nadrolone decan. it says their use is unjustified and pointless. This is a section of the book entitled "anabolic steroids" Please remind me, what does "anabolic" by definition mean...?Don't waste your time on these morons and their herd instincts, fuck em, the less people who use juice, for us the better, we're the few superhumans, bad luck to the dealers of course. As for the orignial thread, don't be so fucking arrogant as to flame a newbie when he asks "can I drink winnie", because lets face it, you were not born with that knowladge, and found out from somewhere, and even after 20 years of using gear, even bill roberts and llew. I suspect would admit that we know fuck all compared to what we will know in 20 years from now
after reading this my doubts about whether to take novadex wer erased and i decided to take 20 mgED instead of ten
then i wondered if this could be a viable safe alternative for women to use to gain muscle mass instead of or stacked with less AAS .
ANYBODY GOT ANY OPINIONS ON THAT?
