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Unsafe in the U.K.

Weapon X

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The last vestige of civilized Britain has fallen away - the unarmed British "Bobbie." For 170 years, British police functioned without guns. Since their founding by Sir Robert Peel in 1829, Bobbies walked their beats armed only with their nightsticks. Until the last few years of these 17 decades, the British public was armed. Now it is the other way around. The police have guns, and the law-abiding public doesn't. What happened?

Britain has the most severe "gun control" laws in the world. Not even members of the British Olympic Shooting Team are allowed pistols. The British are reduced to registered single- and double-barreled shotguns, and the maximum permitted shell load is birdshot.

According to the arguments of gun-control advocates, Britain should be safe and crime free. But, alas, violent crime and robberies have skyrocketed. Gunfights between rival immigrant gangs caused the revolution in British policing. In Robin Hood's Nottinghamshire, constables now patrol in pairs armed with semi-automatic pistols. They are backed up by armed-response vehicles stocked with submachine guns.

If gun control makes society safe, why was it necessary to overthrow British police tradition, arm police with semiautomatic weapons and provide machinegun backup? As a test case in gun control, Britain proves it to be a total failure. The result is exactly the one predicted by the National Rifle Association: "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will
have guns."

In Britain, a man's home may be his castle where the king of England cannot enter without a warrant, but robbers and rapists enter at will. It is easier and less risky for a criminal to have his way with a victim in the privacy of the victim's home than in public. Gun control has made home invasion safe for criminals.

In the United States, experts have proven time and again that widespread gun ownership is a deterrent to crime and prevents between 1 million and 3 million criminal acts each year. Gun ownership saves numerous lives and foils large numbers of rapes and robberies. Yet, gun controllers persist in their attempts to disarm the public.

A person can't help but wonder whether gun-control advocates are uninformed fools or have a secret agenda. Once gun control enters politics, the lying makes even Bill and Hillary Rodham Clinton blush. As the 20th century came to a close, Canadian Justice Minister Allan Rock fended off criticisms of a gun-registration bill his government was pushing by giving assurances that "there is no reason to confiscate legally owned firearms."

Within 10 months of the minister's assurances, 553,000 legally registered handguns were confiscated. Now, rifles and shotguns must be licensed and registered. Having learned that the only purpose of registration is to tell the government where the guns are, compliance has collapsed. Large numbers of law-abiding Canadians prefer to risk five years in prison than to register their guns.

Gun-control laws dramatically reduce public safety and turn law-abiding citizens into law-breakers. Licensing and registration increase crime by devoting police resources to paperwork. Gun-registration databases cannot prevent crimes or aid in their solving, because criminals do not register their guns.

The people most dangerous to the public are not on the FBI's "Most Wanted List." Far more dangerous to our safety than criminals are gun-control extremists like New York Democratic Sens. Charles Schumer and Clinton and Sarah Brady of Handgun Control.

These are the people who will leave us defenseless as they abrogate the Constitution and destroy respect for law, while promising an end to "gun violence."

The American Rifleman reports that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms - the guys who brought us Waco - are using intimidation and threats to compile an illegal registry of gun owners. The BATF thumbs its nose at federal court decisions and continues to harass legitimate gun dealers and purchasers as if they were criminals.

We need to ask ourselves why liberals have made gun confiscation such a priority. I think it is to distract us from the disastrous results of liberal social engineering. When high school students shoot their classmates and workers open fire on their co-workers, the fault lies not in guns. It lies in the breakdown in self-control and moral integrity. The irrational shootings stem from the success of liberals in achieving
their goals.
 
Figure's released on the news today show that since the present gun control laws were introduced in Britain after Dunblane (Scotland) gun crime has risen 113% !.
Go figure.

bouncer
 
The article neglects to mention that the vast majority of british police do not carry guns. It has just twisted the whole situation around in order to provide support for people who want guns in the USA. The number of police carrying guns is very few.....and they usually only come out on special occasions. Also, I that think there is a big difference between a semi-automatic pistol and what most people consider to be a machine gun. The armed police over here do not carry machine guns!

As for the piece about rapists and robbers having easy access to homes......thats bullshit too. I have known only one person to be burgled.....and that was a house normally occupied by students who were on holiday. Anybody who bothers to look up the facts on rape knows that most (90%?) rapists are known to their victims. So most rapists dont need to break into homes!!! Funny how immigrants get blamed for any gun fights.....I live in Birmingham which is supposed to be full of gun crime. Alot of the problems arent due to immigrants at all.

Lets move onto the stats for gun crime in the UK. Stats can be manipulated to show whatever you care to show. I bet I could find stats issued by the home office that say the complete opposite to this report.

As I said, this is a one sided story full of sensationalist bullshit.
 
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Anybody who says you shoot to disable or injure is full of shit. No matter where you are, if a policeman/soldier pulls the trigger you bet he's going for a kill shot. Anything else is too risky.....and invariably fails.

I think you will also find that marksman exist in the brit police force. They just arent heavily publicised. They were used at the Iranian Embassy seige (85 I think) to good effect. And last time I looked your average armed american policeman wasnt a marksman.


GaryWary said:
that's not the whole picture... british police go fo a kill shot...

americans have marksman police....
 
I can assure you most cops I have known don't shoot that well......And people think Texas is a place for the Wyatt earps and full of Cowboys Geeze...
 
Weapon X said:


Gunfights between rival immigrant gangs caused the revolution in British policing.

That's it, you Brits should ban immigrants!
 
Imnotdutch said:
The armed police over here do not carry machine guns!

Yes they do. I have seen them.

Imnotdutch said:

As for the piece about rapists and robbers having easy access to homes......thats bullshit too. I have known only one person to be burgled.....and that was a house normally occupied by students who were on holiday. Anybody who bothers to look up the facts on rape knows that most (90%?) rapists are known to their victims.

You must live in a nice part of Brum then. Areas like where I am from (Salford) people get robbed all the time. There are plenty of guns about as well. Manchester didn't get branded as 'gunchester' for nothing. People also regularly get their windows put through in their cars at the lights and either have their car or possesions taken.

Do you honestly believe that your average smack head would be as hasty to rob someone if there was a good chance that they'd be carring a gun?

Burgalries, street robberies, rapes happen all the time where I live. If I could legally have a gun, I would definately get myself and my girl one. It isn't that hard to get one illegaly though.
 
SO19 (Tactical Firearms Department of the Metropolitan Police - London) are only called out when required. It is the same around the rest of the UK.

There are armed response vehicles which routinely patrol cities, but it is not as if there are loads of trigger happy police running around brandishing guns at law abiding citizens.

The original article in this thread is misleading propoganda to try to say that gun control laws in the US should not be strengthened.

I do not know what the situation is regarding gun laws in the US (and I wouldn't presume to guess about them) but the article was talking total crap about the state of guns in the hands of police in the UK.

Of course gun crime is going up - I'm sure that it is rising in almost every country, along with drug-related crime.

The laws after Dunblane were meant to remove guns from being readily available. They would always be available to criminals. The guy who carried out the Dunblane massacre was a registered gun owner and hence after the post Dunblane laws, would not have been able to own guns - so Dunblane would not have happened.

There will always be gun crimes but the laws are also meant to stop the then legally-owned guns being used for killing.
 
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Where have you seen these machine guns? Is it a common occurence? It sure as hell isnt a common occurrence as suggested by the original post. I have only ever seen semi-automatic weapons carried by police on protection duties for royalty or in highly volatile situations. Mebbe you saw pics of SO19 as suggested by the previous poster.

Balsall Heath is where I live.....meant to be a rough part! If the bullet proof glass in all the off-licences is anything to go by it prob is by most peoples standards. I used to live at Five-Ways which has an even worse rep.

You do get car crime and street crime, but that generally involves knives not guns. Your average smackhead will clear off if you stand up to him/her. I've had to do that on a couple of occasions and it wasnt a problem.

The guns are undoubtedly around.....but the situation isnt quite as bad as the original poster made out. Put it this way, if a whiteboy like me can walk around areas that are largely populated by asians and/or black people then the situation isnt that bad. BTW that was not a racist comment. The rough areas in Birmingham are populated by one or the other and black youths are responsible for more crime than any other group.

It makes me laugh that everybodies answer to rising crime is to make weapons more wide-spread. If you arm everybody the crims will come back with even more fire-power. What do you do then? Make it legal to drive tanks and carry bazookas??

strengthmonster said:


Yes they do. I have seen them.



You must live in a nice part of Brum then. Areas like where I am from (Salford) people get robbed all the time. There are plenty of guns about as well. Manchester didn't get branded as 'gunchester' for nothing. People also regularly get their windows put through in their cars at the lights and either have their car or possesions taken.

Do you honestly believe that your average smack head would be as hasty to rob someone if there was a good chance that they'd be carring a gun?

Burgalries, street robberies, rapes happen all the time where I live. If I could legally have a gun, I would definately get myself and my girl one. It isn't that hard to get one illegaly though.
 
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it really depends on where u love. i have to say u could get a gun over here if u reallly wanted one.

i dont think they carry machine guns, or if they do very rarely. i have seen police carrysub machine guns (usually MP5's) and semi-automatic pistols, but never a machine gun, a machine gun is a huge motherfucker used for mowing down people or completely suppressing them, its also not too accurate. the armedforces have used the GPMG for a long ime, i assume this is what they would use, but it is HUGE and very HEAVY, ive carried it and it sucks having to lug it around, and i only had it for like 1/2 an hour. but maybe they have them i dunno

thank god ive never seen armed police. my friends think sometimes its funny to pul out a BB gun and fire it on the streets....today someone was shot in london for carrying a firelighter.

and as for the marksmen issue...policemen should give a warning that they will fire if they dont put the weapon down...befor people start saying they will probably die, armed police over here have killed more innocents than they have saved.....if he doesnt and moves very suddenly then shoot him, but even if they do shoot him, why noty in the stomach, why in the thorax?

this is a machone gun...its huge!
 
I agree that armed police should always give a warning before shooting (if at all possible).

The guy shot yesterday in London was holding a lighter - but it was shaped like a pistol and based on the pics on TV it looked pretty realistic at 6 feet away so it must have looked even more realistic at the range that the police were at.

Don't know whether a warning was given or not - I suppose the inquiry will reveal what happened.

There are often armed police at airports, and in the days of increased IRA activity there was a more visible armed presence in London.
 
I think that the reason they give is that they go for a large target that will instantly stop the bad (?) guy.

.....if he doesnt and moves very suddenly then shoot him, but even if they do shoot him, why noty in the stomach, why in the thorax?

[/B]
 
A couple of things here. First SO19 are armed with single shot Heckler & Koch MP5's, there's no automatic MP5's in SO19 service. The only concession made to some member's of SO19 is the folding stock version. They also use semi auto Remington 870 shotguns.

I'm a qualified sniper, and have also instructed on sniper course's and you would NEVER teach and student to aim for legs and arms, we leave that for hollywood. The use of non-letl weapons in the USA will probably always to confined to the USA. If a situation presents itself whereby an armed policeman or marksmen are deployed the only safe policy to use is shot to kill, for everyone's safety. Except of course the fucker who's just been drilled !.
It's simply safer for all involved for the marksman or policeman/soldier to aim for the centre mass of the target and ensure a clean kill.

Danielson you've carried the GPMG for 1/2, fuck's sake what kind of cushy training was that ?, or are you a little guy ?. When I was just a rifleman everytime we'd go on exercise I'd the those dreaded words "K......... take the MAG", and that would be it for the exercise. Just kidding Danielson I know what your saying, it's a heavy bastard but THE best section/platoon support weapon out there, it blow's the M60 away.

BTW sniper weapons used by the brit's are the Accuracy International A92A1 & A2 and the Heckler & Koch 93.

Regards
Bouncer
 
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I guess that settles it then..... :)

bouncer said:
A couple of things here. First SO19 are armed with single shot Heckler & Koch MP5's, there's no automatic MP5's in SO19 service. The only concession made to some member's of SO19 is the folding stock version. They also use semi auto Remington 870 shotguns.

I'm a qualified sniper, and have also instructed on sniper course's and you would NEVER teach and student to aim for legs and arms, we leave that for hollywood. The use of non-letl weapons in the USA will probably always to confined to the USA. If a situation presents itself whereby an armed policeman or marksmen are deployed the only safe policy to use is shot to kill, for everyone's safety. Except of course the fucker who's just been drilled !.
It's simply safer for all involved for the marksman or policeman/soldier to aim for the centre mass of the target and ensure a clean kill.

Danielson you've carried the GPMG for 1/2, fuck's sake what kind of cushy training was that ?, or are you a little guy ?. When I was just a rifleman everytime we'd go on exercise I'd the those dreaded words "K......... take the MAG", and that would be it for the exercise. Just kidding Danielson I know what your saying, it's a heavy bastard but THE best section/platoon support weapon out there, it blow's the M60 away.

BTW sniper weapons used by the brit's are the Accuracy International AWR MAGNUM and the Heckler & Koch 93.

Regards
Bouncer
 
There's currently talks going on about possibly using tranquiliser guns instead of normal ones - to prevent people getting killed.

It hasn't been decided yet - just an idea they're considering.
 
And when the guy has insomnia we'll still have to smake the fucker.

K.I.S.S. : Keep It Simple Stupid !

Regards

Bouncer
 
bouncer said:
A couple of things here. First SO19 are armed with single shot Heckler & Koch MP5's, there's no automatic MP5's in SO19 service. The only concession made to some member's of SO19 is the folding stock version. They also use semi auto Remington 870 shotguns.

I'm a qualified sniper, and have also instructed on sniper course's and you would NEVER teach and student to aim for legs and arms, we leave that for hollywood. The use of non-letl weapons in the USA will probably always to confined to the USA. If a situation presents itself whereby an armed policeman or marksmen are deployed the only safe policy to use is shot to kill, for everyone's safety. Except of course the fucker who's just been drilled !.
It's simply safer for all involved for the marksman or policeman/soldier to aim for the centre mass of the target and ensure a clean kill.

Danielson you've carried the GPMG for 1/2, fuck's sake what kind of cushy training was that ?, or are you a little guy ?. When I was just a rifleman everytime we'd go on exercise I'd the those dreaded words "K......... take the MAG", and that would be it for the exercise. Just kidding Danielson I know what your saying, it's a heavy bastard but THE best section/platoon support weapon out there, it blow's the M60 away.

BTW sniper weapons used by the brit's are the Accuracy International A92A1 & A2 and the Heckler & Koch 93.

Regards
Bouncer


Well, now I have learnt a bit about weapons...
 
It's the usual shit. 2 people get shot within a day or two of each other, and the politicians do a lot of talking and come out with some "new" solution.
 
bouncer said:

Danielson you've carried the GPMG for 1/2, fuck's sake what kind of cushy training was that ?, or are you a little guy ?. When I was just a rifleman everytime we'd go on exercise I'd the those dreaded words "K......... take the MAG", and that would be it for the exercise. Just kidding Danielson I know what your saying, it's a heavy bastard but THE best section/platoon support weapon out there, it blow's the M60 away.
Regards
Bouncer

hee hee, it was very cushy....i was a cadet ;) .....bearing in mind i was 18 yrs old, 9 stone and not very strong im suprised it didnt weigh more than me! We generally didnt get trained on stuff like that (i.e. something other than an air rifles, 0.22's and SA-80's) but due to my age and me somewhat stupidly asking 'what the fuck is that mutha-fucka....its huge' the guys their were nice enough to drill me on it. not to fire it though....while drilling me they told me to fire off the action...and hell without any rounds in it that thing like shook the earth around me (slight exagerration but much more than what ive ever experienced :D )....props to people that use it, they must be well 'ard....

i never knew SO19 were limited to semi-auto's though....but i read what actually happened in the news, and if the officers reports are anthing to go by, the dude with the very realistic lighter refused to put the lighter down and his 'hostages' were running all over the place. also only one guy fired, the dude with the MP5 didnt....so i guess its not as bad as that dude who got shot because he was carrying a table leg.
 
BUMPING this so WeaponX can respond.....whilst he insists on using the Uk to justify guns I think a response is in order......especially as his original post was so full of errors.
 
Respond to what? The British and Australians have been the leaders in the great misdaventure called "Gun Control," and they have seen violent crime increase, just as it does in every American city that bans concealed carry.
Look at the American cities with the highest rates of crime, and count how many of them allow concealed carry so that law-abiding citizens can defend themselves.
The Brits are just displaying the logical results of the policies being supported by the anti-gun lobby in America.
:destroy:
 
well mainly to the fact that your original post was in error......you said something like british bobbies are now armed with machine guns. Rapists and burglars are free to break in.....etc.

You are free to interpret the stats any way you wish....although stats can be made to say whatever you wish. I respect your opinion.....but some of the things said were just plain wrong.


Weapon X said:
Respond to what? The British and Australians have been the leaders in the great misdaventure called "Gun Control," and they have seen violent crime increase, just as it does in every American city that bans concealed carry.
Look at the American cities with the highest rates of crime, and count how many of them allow concealed carry so that law-abiding citizens can defend themselves.
The Brits are just displaying the logical results of the policies being supported by the anti-gun lobby in America.
:destroy:
 
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