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Trenbolone advice for all interested

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perfectspecimen

New member
here is my take on fina

fina lowers t3 levels which may increase prolactin
fina acts as a progestin which may cause gyno
fina raises igf-1 levels which may cause gyno
fina shuts down the hpta hard
fina causes limp dick


take cytomel while on fina to regulate t3 levels

take bromocriptine between 1.25mg and 2.5mg split in 2 doses
for lowering prolactin

take a form of test preferrable prop at 200mg a week to prevent limp dick

proviron also gets rid of the side effects from low test production

take hcg at 500iu for 7 days mid cycle then a week before clomid

ru-486 is of no use for fina bc low progesterone raises prolactin

take arimidex since it lowers estrogen which will harden you up plus it lowers igf-1 levels 18% at 1mg a day and helps restore hpta levels

take 50mg winny everyday because winny is supposed to occupy the progesterone receptors meaning less progestins become activated so to speak.

good luck

cranberry extract at 2g a day and ala at 2g a day as well as
nizoral shampoo and spironalactone(sp) for hair.
 
All your logic is sound but you are forgetting one thing. All Gyno is caused by Estrogen. None of the hormones by themselves (except estrogen) cause gyno. It is caused more by the means in which the hormone influences testosterone or estrogen.

Low thyroid = Low testosterone production = increased influence of estrogen = Gyno

High Progestin = low progesterone = less estrogen inhibition = Gyno

High prolactin = low Testosterone =increased influence of estrogen = Gyno

In every case estrogen is the true culprit. The only difference is the manor by which you arrive to this point.
 
Lone_AZ, how do you explain Anastrozole not aleviating gyno induced by Deca or Fina if 'all' gyno is estrogen induced?
 
my personal experience with fina....i only did 6 weeks at 75 mg ed


1. no gyno
2. no problems getin hard
3. have no idea about that scientific stuff u talkin bout
 
LONE_AZ said:
All your logic is sound but you are forgetting one thing. All Gyno is caused by Estrogen. None of the hormones by themselves (except estrogen) cause gyno. It is caused more by the means in which the hormone influences testosterone or estrogen.

Low thyroid = Low testosterone production = increased influence of estrogen = Gyno

High Progestin = low progesterone = less estrogen inhibition = Gyno

High prolactin = low Testosterone =increased influence of estrogen = Gyno

In every case estrogen is the true culprit. The only difference is the manor by which you arrive to this point.
Click to expand...
sorry friend but your full of shit..
cheers-
Mike
 
i have done three cycles with fina.
first one was at 37.5mg/ed for 6 weeks
second one was at 75mg/ed for 6 weeks
third one was the same

i got gyno from the first one, i did fina alone

i only got sight puffiness from the second one which had 50mg of winny/ed with it

the third on i used winny, arimidex and t3 also and i didnt get anything
 
perfectspecimen said:
i have done three cycles with fina.
first one was at 37.5mg/ed for 6 weeks
second one was at 75mg/ed for 6 weeks
third one was the same

i got gyno from the first one, i did fina alone

i only got sight puffiness from the second one which had 50mg of winny/ed with it

the third on i used winny, arimidex and t3 also and i didnt get anything
Click to expand...

Good info!
 
if you dont want to use t3 you can use guggelsterones to regulate your thyroid.

azeliac acid is also great for your hair as is polysorbate-80 shampoo


Karma?
 
if you dont want to use t3 you can use guggelsterones to regulate your thyroid.

azeliac acid is also great for your hair as is polysorbate-80 shampoo

I am about to start my fourth fina cycle at 100mg/ed for 6 weeks with 75mg winny/ed
2.5mg bromocriptine/ed tapering up to 2.5mg
t3
arimidex 1mg/ed
prop 100mg/eod

Karma?
 
LONE_AZ said:
All your logic is sound but you are forgetting one thing. All Gyno is caused by Estrogen. None of the hormones by themselves (except estrogen) cause gyno. It is caused more by the means in which the hormone influences testosterone or estrogen.

Low thyroid = Low testosterone production = increased influence of estrogen = Gyno

High Progestin = low progesterone = less estrogen inhibition = Gyno

High prolactin = low Testosterone =increased influence of estrogen = Gyno

In every case estrogen is the true culprit. The only difference is the manor by which you arrive to this point.
Click to expand...

Everyone else disagrees, but I agree. Bill Llwellyn stated the same exact thing in a post several months ago. Basically the Progesterone Gyno myth is just that. Nandrolone> Progesterone>Estrogen= TITS. RU486 will block it further up the chain and reduce progesterone, but Gyno is caused by Estrogen. I always use Arimidex or Nolvadex with a Deca cycle and I never experience any gyno whatsoever. I also reduce the Deca bloat. I think if you are prone to gyno, you will get gyno. That probably explains the mythical people who got gyno from Deca or Fina, but which I have never actually met.
 
i think we cleared this up pretty much.

increased progesterone isnt bad because it lowers prolactin and estrogen. Ru-486 has been know to cause gyno because when it lowers progesterone the estrogen receptor is upgraded and prolactin is increased. ru-486 also can lower the cortisol in your body so much that your body will produce extra cortisol and break down your muscles. FYI
 
The_Eviscerator said:


Everyone else disagrees, but I agree. Bill Llwellyn stated the same exact thing in a post several months ago. Basically the Progesterone Gyno myth is just that. Nandrolone> Progesterone>Estrogen= TITS. RU486 will block it further up the chain and reduce progesterone, but Gyno is caused by Estrogen. I always use Arimidex or Nolvadex with a Deca cycle and I never experience any gyno whatsoever. I also reduce the Deca bloat. I think if you are prone to gyno, you will get gyno. That probably explains the mythical people who got gyno from Deca or Fina, but which I have never actually met.
Click to expand...

William Lewellyn is wrong. Nandrolone- UNREDUCED is a Progestin. Not progesterone.

btw- its odd... when I shook hands with these mythical people.. they seemed real.. delusions must be getting stronger :)

note- a 19-nor derivative is used for chemical castration.
 
I’m not full of shit this is facts are from my educated knowledge. It is medical fact. Neither prolactin nor progesterone causes Gyno. Like I said before Prolactin will cause gyno via low testosterone production. Progestin will lower your natural progesterone levels. Progesterone is an antagonist of estrogen. Arimdex is an Aromtase inhibitor and will have no effect what so ever on free circulating estrogen. For it to be off some benefit you would have to use much higher doses. Once true Gynecomastia takes hold it is very difficult to stop the response of the tissue even in a low estrogen environment. Low testosterone further aggravates the problem. Novaldex is not strong enough to over come theses deficits. I know this may be hard to swallow for a lot of you but it is the truth. Neither progesterone nor Prolactin has ever caused a case of Gyno by themselves.

If you will not listen to me at least listen to Bill Llwellyn. I have never read what he has to say but from what I understand his statements seem to follow this frame of logic. You should give these statements some credence if two different people arrive at the same conclusions not knowing what the other said. Coincidentally I do have three years of medical school and have a good foundation in endocrinology. So I’m not some hack with my steroid bible sitting next to me spiting out cheap information. I will even go further and say this that Clomid is a waste of time and Nolvadex works much better for recovery. These are facts, which I have known for along time, but I have kept my mouth shut until I felt I had a bit more time around here.

And research should be done using medical studies and valid information not the elite Fitness Search Engine. So the answer to that question is I did my homework. Not everything thrown around here is Gospel.
 
clomid....

...=waste of time? how so?

I too am going into a medical field although im only first year and i would like to hear your basis for reasoning clomid's ineffectiveness post cycle. ( obviously because i will be using clomid in 12 weeks time )

b.A.
 
LONE_AZ said:
All Gyno is caused by Estrogen. None of the hormones by themselves (except estrogen) cause gyno.
Click to expand...

And the survey says? ZZZZzt.

Negative. For a fact, progestins can cause gyno. Ask anyone sensitive to DECA what it felt like to grow bitch tits from this stuff and have NO WAY of fending it off!

NFG
 
Clomid works. I just got carried away with my statements. I just come from the school of thought that Novaldex is better choice for recovery. But I know clomid works so there really is no point in stirring up anything over that.
 
LONE_AZ said:
I’m not full of shit this is facts are from my educated knowledge. It is medical fact. Neither prolactin nor progesterone causes Gyno. Like I said before Prolactin will cause gyno via low testosterone production. Progestin will lower your natural progesterone levels. Progesterone is an antagonist of estrogen. Arimdex is an Aromtase inhibitor and will have no effect what so ever on free circulating estrogen. For it to be off some benefit you would have to use much higher doses. Once true Gynecomastia takes hold it is very difficult to stop the response of the tissue even in a low estrogen environment. Low testosterone further aggravates the problem. Novaldex is not strong enough to over come theses deficits. I know this may be hard to swallow for a lot of you but it is the truth. Neither progesterone nor Prolactin has ever caused a case of Gyno by themselves.

If you will not listen to me at least listen to Bill Llwellyn. I have never read what he has to say but from what I understand his statements seem to follow this frame of logic. You should give these statements some credence if two different people arrive at the same conclusions not knowing what the other said. Coincidentally I do have three years of medical school and have a good foundation in endocrinology. So I’m not some hack with my steroid bible sitting next to me spiting out cheap information. I will even go further and say this that Clomid is a waste of time and Nolvadex works much better for recovery. These are facts, which I have known for along time, but I have kept my mouth shut until I felt I had a bit more time around here.

And research should be done using medical studies and valid information not the elite Fitness Search Engine. So the answer to that question is I did my homework. Not everything thrown around here is Gospel.
Click to expand...

Lone, I certainly respect your opinion. Do you have experience with Nolvadex and Arimidex for post cycle therapy, without the use of clomid?

Why not just use clomid with arimidex, it would seem that you would have all your bases covered.

And I tend to agree with you about estrogen being the main and possibly only culprit in developping gyno.


Btw, he's not saying that Deca can't cause gyno(I've seen it happen to a friend at 200mg a week), he's just saying that you get gyno through a different mecanism than originally thought: estrogen levels from unbalanced hormone levels.
 
Re: clomid....

bigAragorn said:
...=waste of time? how so?

I too am going into a medical field although im only first year and i would like to hear your basis for reasoning clomid's ineffectiveness post cycle. ( obviously because i will be using clomid in 12 weeks time )

b.A.
Click to expand...

There's some great reading in some of the following posts. Especially those with the higher reply counts.

Click here for Bill Llewellyn posts

Basically Bill Llewellyn, author of Anabolics 2002: Anabolic Steroid Reference Manual, has stated that it's more efficient to use Nolvadex and HCG, than Clomid alone, to restore normal HPTA levels and maximize recovery post cycle. Some agree some do not. But until I try both I can't really comment on which is better.
 
For a fact progestin lower your Progesterone. And another fact Progesterone is an antagonist of Estrogen. Deca also raises Prolactin. Low Testosterone, Low progesterone it takes very little estrogen in the system to create gyno. I have had Genoa from Deca so I know how bad it sucks. I have stated my case. It is obvious that some people want to chase their tales but it is not rocket science. It follows a simple course of logic. I’m not going to defend my argument anymore believe what you want. Has anyone ever stop to consider why Gyno from Deca and Tren is so tough to beat? Because some of the logic thrown around here is very flawed. Just look at Vitex. Why does Vitex Work for some. One it lowers Prolactin and two it increases progesterone.
 
LONE_AZ said:
I’m not full of shit this is facts are from my educated knowledge. It is medical fact.not facts.. theories Neither prolactin nor progesterone causes Gyno.actually it is not entirely clear what causes gynecomastia, what is clear is that there are certain hormonal and biochemical exposures associated with it Like I said before Prolactin will cause gyno via low testosterone production.high prolactin levels are associated with low testosterone, however they are also are assoicated with glandular growth in breast tissue Progestin will lower your natural progesterone levels.by suppression of LH Progesterone is an antagonist of estrogen.not entirely true.. though what we are talking about is PROGESTINS.. whose activity is considerably different Arimdex is an Aromtase inhibitor and will have no effect what so ever on free circulating estrogen.true, but free circulating estrogen will be farily rapidly metabolised.. unless it is a 17a or 17b metabolite For it to be off some benefit you would have to use much higher doses. really depends on individual aromatase production.. though agree that most people dont use enough, at least if they already have or had gyno Once true Gynecomastia takes hold it is very difficult to stop the response of the tissue even in a low estrogen environment. Not really, estrogen is only one factor,, other growth factors are likely MUCH more important.. btw- recession of hard tissue is actually very common Low testosterone further aggravates the problem.agree Novaldex is not strong enough to over come theses deficits. what exactly is your point here.. nolva is very effective for many, though not all.. really depends on the aggravating factors I know this may be hard to swallow for a lot of you but it is the truth. Neither progesterone nor Prolactin has ever caused a case of Gyno by themselves. True, but it is the totality.. they are agravating factors.. at least PROGESTINS are..

If you will not listen to me at least listen to Bill Llwellyn...why?? he is wrong quite often.. as most people are.. since a lot of this is theory and the actuall mechanisms are not all that well understood to begin with I have never read what he has to say but from what I understand his statements seem to follow this frame of logic...so you have never read his stuff, but he should be believed... is this what medical school teaches?? (just a jab, dont take it personal) You should give these statements some credence if two different people arrive at the same conclusions not knowing what the other said. ..why?? there are a considerable # of people here and elsewhere, not knowing each other, who have reached other.. or different conclusions.. your logic is flawed Coincidentally I do have three years of medical school and have a good foundation in endocrinology...(deleted comment.. too harsh) So I’m not some hack with my steroid bible sitting next to me spiting out cheap information...interesting?? never read it :).. was that duchaine's book.. he was right.. sometimes :) I will even go further and say this that Clomid is a waste of time and Nolvadex works much better for recovery. ..interesting, you have never read old bill's stuff but you just recite 2 of his theories.. the second one.. is backed up by early studies.. however later ones found differently.. These are facts..once again.. that facts thing.. well.. just wrong.. THEORY.. , which I have known for along time, but I have kept my mouth shut until I felt I had a bit more time around here.

And research should be done using medical studies and valid information not the elite Fitness Search Engine...you mean search on medline.... :confused: is this the link??

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi

..seems kind of technical :p
So the answer to that question is I did my homework. Not everything thrown around here is Gospel.
Click to expand...

:p
 
LONE_AZ said:
For a fact progestin lower your Progesterone. Has anyone ever stop to consider why Gyno from Deca and Tren is so tough to beat? Because some of the logic thrown around here is very flawed. Just look at Vitex. Why does Vitex Work for some. One it lowers Prolactin and two it increases progesterone.
Click to expand...

Totally agree.. maybe we are not arguing?? :p
 
Thank you... The Clomid, Arimidex combo may very well be a superior to Novaldex by itself. But then there is allways cost to consider to. To be honest I really have no argument against it either, it may very well be the best post cycle regime. But for those who can’t afford the Arimidex then I would go with the Novaldex over the Clomid.
 
LONE_AZ said:


In every case estrogen is the true culprit. The only difference is the manor by which you arrive to this point.
Click to expand...

perhaps this is where we disagree.. except the clomid/nolva issue and the logic of beleiving others..

.. be back.. to see if we actually disagree :p
 
Macrophage69alpha, I appreciate the questions and you are somewhat right on one point. Allot of what I have said is theory. But I believe it to be true, but until I see otherwise I'm sticking to my guns. I get pissed when some tells me I full of shit without proof. Then I tend to ramble in my anger. But I think you get the core of what I’m getting at maybe we just do not agree on how to get at that point which is fine and makes for good discussion. I think somewhere in all of this lies the truth. Probably a mix of different opinions I certainly have no illusions that I 100% correct but I do think I’m on the right track.
 
damn, i didnt realize how much goes on with the endrocrine systems that can be thrown off so easily.

this brings me to a question, does anavar also lower t3 levels? i read this somewhere. if true, then theoretically, like fina it would raise prolactin. now i have never heard of anyone having gyno problems from ox, but if what you say is true LONE_AZ, then couldn't someone who already has pre-exisiting gyno have problems on high enough doses of ox? this is all on the condition that it does lower t3 levels.

this seems real unlikely but thought i'd ask anyway, since i wanna do a ox only cycle, and i had gyno before (worst part is i've never even done a cycle before.....still don't know how i could've gotten gyno from a methoxygen, but that was what i was takin when the symptoms came)
 
It is my understanding that for Gyno to occur your thyroid levels have to be chronically low. Meaning you would probably have other symptoms well before Gyno ever developed. Most people would seek treatment before this would happen. If in fact Ox does inhibit thyroid function than I highly doubt the amount and length of time of the inhibition were to occur would produce Gynecomastia. Furthermore if thyroid disease were a problem I believe you would see it listed as a contraindication. But then again this is only speculative. There are always oddball cases as with any disorder.
 
that makes sense. last i checked my thryoid was fine and havent have and wieght gain or loss problems so i'm thinkin i'll be alright.....of course i'll have bloodwork done before i start the cycle to make sure everything is in check to begin with.
 
No. Not unless you are cutting and you want to use T3 for that reason. ECA post cycle would be a better choice post cycle if you were worried about minor thyroid inhibition. The only real way to know is to get bloodwork done post cycle.
 
macrophage69alpha said:
William Lewellyn is wrong. Nandrolone- UNREDUCED is a Progestin. Not progesterone.

btw- its odd... when I shook hands with these mythical people.. they seemed real.. delusions must be getting stronger :)

note- a 19-nor derivative is used for chemical castration.
Click to expand...

I never said nandrolone converts to progesterone you tool. In fact, I clearly explain in both Anabolics books that it binds the PG receptor avidly because it is similar to 19-norprogesterone (a more active progestin than regular c-19 progesterone).

Sorry to respond to an old thread, but Macro is starting to get on my nerves.

- Bill

BTW. Nice how you never responded to my email. You know, the one where I put you in your place about your reference for your rediculous belief, of all things, that Nolvadex lowers Testosterone levels in men.
 
macrophage69alpha said:


William Lewellyn is wrong. Nandrolone- UNREDUCED is a Progestin. Not progesterone.

btw- its odd... when I shook hands with these mythical people.. they seemed real.. delusions must be getting stronger :)

note- a 19-nor derivative is used for chemical castration.
Click to expand...

LOL Macro..... :)

I'm just too tired to get into this looping debate again..... :)

Fonz
 
Despite the epidemic of progesterone induced gyno on the internet, to my knowledge there are no studies or documented case reports in the medical literature of progesterone or synthetic progestins directly causing gyno. I say directly because progestins can cause gyno indirectly by suppressing endogenous testosterone production. (This is the rationale behind "medical castration" of male sex offenders with progestins like medroxyprogesterone).

Glandular tissue in the breast has two components: the so called alveoli, and the ducts which drain them. Estrogen is responsible for ductal proliferation, while progesterone controls alveolar development. In mice lacking an estrogen receptor, there is only rudimentary development of alveolar epithelial tissue. So estrogen and progesterone are both required for normal breast development.

The conclusion of one study that examined breast development in mice was:

" These results suggest that progesterone stimulation of mammary development is dependent on estrogen action to induce mammary PR [Progesterone Receptor] gene expression" (1).

Another study in humans with elevated progesterone levels due to Grave's disease came to this conclusion:

"Progesterone enhances estrogen's stimulation of mammary gland growth, and our findings suggest that progesterone may play a role in the gynecomastia that occurs in men with hyperthyroidism." (2)

So without estrogen, it would appear that progesterone cannot stimulate breast growth. Hence the importance of arimidex and/or nolvadex in people who are prone to gyno, even when nonaromatizing steroids are being used. Even then there is no guarantee that gyno won't develop, since these drugs are not 100% effective in eliminating estrogen or blocking its action.

Another way that arimidex (and other aromatase inhibitors) and nolvadex can help prevent gyno when nonaromatizing steroids are used is by lowering IGF-1 levels. Numerous studies have shown that IGF-1 is essential to breast development.

RU-486 (mifepristone), an antiprogesterone, sounds good in theory, but it can actually cause gyno (3) (4). RU-486 acts as an antiandrogen; in addition, by blocking the action of progesterone, it can upregulate estrogen receptors. (5)


(1) Endocrinology 2000 Aug;141(8):2982-94

Induction of mammary gland development in estrogen receptor-alpha knockout mice.

Bocchinfuso WP, Lindzey JK, Hewitt SC, Clark JA, Myers PH, Cooper R, Korach KS.

(2)J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1988 Jan;66(1):230-2

High serum progesterone in hyperthyroid men with Graves' disease.

Nomura K, Suzuki H, Saji M, Horiba N, Ujihara M, Tsushima T, Demura H, Shizume K.

(3) http://books.nap.edu/books/0309049490/html/239.html#page_top


(4)J Neurosurg 1991 Jun;74(6):861-6

Treatment of unresectable meningiomas with the antiprogesterone agent mifepristone.

Grunberg SM, Weiss MH, Spitz IM, Ahmadi J, Sadun A, Russell CA, Lucci L, Stevenson LL.

(5) Int J Biol Markers 1995 Jan-Mar;10(1):47-54

Progesterone agonists and antagonists induce down- and up-regulation of estrogen receptors and estrogen inducible genes in human breast cancer cell lines.

Savoldi G, Ferrari F, Ruggeri G, Sobek L, Albertini A, Di Lorenzo D
 
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