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To all Canadians

bluepeter

New member
A fantastic article in the Toronto Star by David Orchard and Mel Clark re: 'Free trade' (sic)..........

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...le&cid=1124747413174&call_pageid=968256290204

A simple solution to U.S. bullying
Canada can pull out of free trade agreements and return to WTO without penalty, say Mel Clark and David Orchard


In the flurry of outrage over the U.S. refusal to comply with the latest NAFTA ruling on lumber, something is missing. Editorials abound, former negotiators and promoters of NAFTA are talking tough, calling the Americans names. Others suggest ill-conceived threats or demand that the Prime Minister "talk" to President George W. Bush.
Nowhere in these responses is there a concrete plan of how Canada should respond.
Lost in the cacophony of bluster is the fact that Canada is already part of a coherent rules-based trade agreement with the United States. It is called the World Trade Organization, formerly the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade and it has the mechanisms already in place to enable Canada to emerge a clear winner from the current situation.
Founded in the late 1940s, the GATT/WTO was for almost 40 years the primary trade contract between Canada and the U.S.
In all of that time, the United States was never able to levy a countervailing or anti-dumping duty on our exports of lumber. During those four decades, Canada traded profitably, our standard of living rose, Canada won almost all its trade disputes with the U.S. — and Washington abided by the rulings.
By the mid-1980s, 90 per cent of Canadian lumber entered the U.S. tariff free and the duties on the remaining 10 per cent were negligible.
It was only when Canada decided to turn away from the multilateral framework of trade rules with the U.S. and enter into a bilateral one-on-one "free trade" agreement with the U.S. in the mid-1980s, that U.S. industry saw its opportunity and used it. It has been using it ever since.
Under the FTA and NAFTA, it is U.S. law which now applies to all of Canada's exports in countervailing, anti-dumping and related disputes with America. The dispute panels are limited to deciding if the U.S. has applied its own law correctly.
Furthermore, the U.S. can at any time amend its trade law without Canada's agreement and, on lumber alone, it has done so three times to Canada's great disadvantage.
In other words, the FTA and NAFTA, instead of giving us more secure U.S. market access, unleashed the full force of U.S. protectionism to be used against Canada in a way that was not possible under GATT/WTO.
As for the dispute settlement mechanism, touted repeatedly as "the crown jewel" of the FTA, it bears repeating that all agreements end when the negotiated means of resolution are discarded by either player.
The answer is not to shake our fists or shout meaningless threats at America. The answer is to simply return to the safer, more effective, already existing multilateral WTO framework of which Canada and the U.S. are both still members.
Under the WTO, we have all the levers to get back the $5 billion the U.S. has taken in lumber tariffs and to make sure it doesn't happen again.
When Washington not long ago threatened hefty steel duties against Europe, Japan and a number of other steel exporters, Europe triggered the WTO retaliatory process and the Bush administration backed down.
The same defences are available to Canada under the WTO.
Since signing the FTA and NAFTA, the United States has taken 10 trade actions against the Canadian Wheat Board, Canada's largest net earner of foreign currency, and we now have U.S. tariffs against our wheat exports.
In all the years of trading with the U.S. under GATT, the Americans never launched a single formal action against the wheat board, because they knew they could not win.
The essence of the FTA and NAFTA is that they cede vital government powers to the U.S. and the private sector that were used to build an independent Canada.
What the U.S. wants out of the repeated challenges against Canadian lumber exports is to wear Canada down until it agrees to privatize its crown-owned forests, opening them to direct U.S. ownership.
In grain, Washington wants an end to the wheat board. This would see the Canadian grain trade move virtually overnight into U.S. hands.
There is a simple way out, without bluster or insults. Canada does not have to give up ownership of its forests, its industries and its institutions.
With a simple letter to the U.S., under FTA Article 2106, NAFTA Article 2205, Canada can, with six months notice, withdraw from these agreements without penalty and without conditions.
Our trading relations with the U.S. will then automatically revert back to the GATT/WTO framework of international law, which will enable us to both maintain our institutions and trade profitably with the U.S.
All of the intolerable NAFTA rights U.S. companies now have over Canada — to sue the Canadian government, to overturn Canadian laws, to control our exports and energy prices — would disappear. Canada would regain its status as a sovereign nation.
Chasing the dream of a "special relationship" and some kind of shortcut to "secure access" to the U.S. market is a dangerous delusion which has cost Canada dearly.
Superpowers do not have friends or "special relationships," they have interests and they pursue them. Canada must learn to do the same.
 
The Canadian Goverment doesn't have the balls the fuck with the U.S.
If we say we trade this way then so beit,give us the lumber and stfu. :)


ehhhhh
 
Deterass said:
The Canadian Goverment doesn't have the balls the fuck with the U.S.
If we say we trade this way then so beit,give us the lumber and stfu. :)


ehhhhh

As evidenced by the tragedy that is the FTA/NAFTA agreements. The stupid thing is they don't need to fuck with the US or have any balls. The trade agreement itself allows any party to give 6 months notice of their intention to withdraw with no penalty. We would then revert to the WTO standard.

No testicles needed.
 
Deterass said:
The Canadian Goverment doesn't have the balls the fuck with the U.S.
If we say we trade this way then so beit,give us the lumber and stfu. :)


ehhhhh
Still though, re the lumber incident...
US LOST on this one!
Blahahaha! :p ;)
 
a10j10 said:
Still though, re the lumber incident...
US LOST on this one!
Blahahaha! :p ;)

No they didn't. They chose to ignore the ruling. We are still being assfucked on limber tariffs because of this NAFTA bullshit. Over $5 billion so far. Same with wheat/grain.
 
bluepeter said:
No they didn't. They chose to ignore the ruling. We are still being assfucked on limber tariffs because of this NAFTA bullshit. Over $5 billion so far. Same with wheat/grain.
Juridically they lost...
but since they're the US, "Holier than thou", they figure they can ignore anything and everything.
 
a10j10 said:
Juridically they lost...
but since they're the US, "Holier than thou", they figure they can ignore anything and everything.

They can get away with it because this is a unilateral agreement between the United States and Canada (and Mexico as if they count). They do not run the risk of other countries retaliating. Under the WTO agreement, the US could not use such bullying tactics as they would risk alienating a large number of nations rather than just screwing with Canada.
 
bluepeter said:
They can get away with it because this is a unilateral agreement between the United States and Canada (and Mexico as if they count). They do not run the risk of other countries retaliating. Under the WTO agreement, the US could not use such bullying tactics as they would risk alienating a large number of nations rather than just screwing with Canada.
True...
and I hate to agree w/ Deterass, but our gov't ain't got the balls.
 
I hate the canadian govt.. and want all of those fukers to die.. sorry
 
Michael J Fox
 
Jim Carrey, Matthew Perry, Mike Myers blah blah blah

Let's get some intelligible replies from the Canadian peeps. What do you think about this issue?
 
bluepeter said:
lol, right up there with Celine Dion. :sick:
And Captain James Tiberious Quirk.

Seriously though. I think we've been getting ass fucked by half the world for decades. Iran thumbs their noses at us. Our political leaders have gotten so used to getting elected, then protecting their personal little fiefdom, they haven't given serious thought to our roll in the world since World War II.
I personally despise all of our leaders, but I personally don't see a solution short of revolution. But I don't know of anyone with the balls & character to take their place.
 
hidngod said:
And Captain James Tiberious Quirk.

Seriously though. I think we've been getting ass fucked by half the world for decades. Iran thumbs their noses at us. Our political leaders have gotten so used to getting elected, then protecting their personal little fiefdom, they haven't given serious thought to our roll in the world since World War II.
I personally despise all of our leaders, but I personally don't see a solution short of revolution. But I don't know of anyone with the balls & character to take their place.

I'm also not a fan. However, this is something that can be changed that would greatly benefit us as a sovereign nation and without much effort or ramifications. I am at a loss to explain our continuing participation in such an agreement when we are obviously far worse off than we were under the WTO agreement.
 
Wootoom said:
i know im just screwin with ya Bluepeter

I know :)

Our countries sovereignty is something I take very seriously. Just saw that we sold off Petrokhazakstan to China. Fuck. These idiots need to stop selling all our shit.
 
Why on EARTH do we need to go to Canada to get lumber??

We got whole states up north where almost no one lives except shitloads of trees. Ridiculous.

Maybe we'll go to Canada to start importing Mexicans, Fat Vacationers in Europe, and Rednecks too while we're at it.
 
Question, is your lumber industry subsidized?

If so, then remove that obstacle and the tariffs should be gone as well.

If not, then your tariffs should be gone.

The German steel industry was dumping steel into our market for years, which is why we wanted to tariff thier incoming steel.

However we do the same with grain, which I think is wrong.
 
redguru said:
Question, is your lumber industry subsidized?

If so, then remove that obstacle and the tariffs should be gone as well.

If not, then your tariffs should be gone.

The German steel industry was dumping steel into our market for years, which is why we wanted to tariff thier incoming steel.

However we do the same with grain, which I think is wrong.

According to the recent decision by an independent panel under the terms and conditions of the NAFTA agreement, the answer is no. The US of course, is ignoring that decision because they only abide by NAFTA when it suits them.
 
Typical Canadians.

Let's get some comments here canucks! For once, stand up and let your representatives hear that you are pissed!
 
bluepeter said:
Typical Canadians.

Let's get some comments here canucks! For once, stand up and let your representatives hear that you are pissed!
I would be more pissed if I was actually getting some of the 5 billion that is owed to us. Realistically I don’t see the states paying back what they owe us anytime soon there to busy spending are cash to fund the war on terror.
 
superqt4u2nv said:
I would be more pissed if I was actually getting some of the 5 billion that is owed to us. Realistically I don’t see the states paying back what they owe us anytime soon there to busy spending are cash to fund the war on terror.

So do we continue with a trade agreement that puts us in this position? We have heavy tariffs being slapped on some of our most lucrative exports, that did not and would not happen under the WTO. While getting our money back is important, first priority should be forcing the idiots running this country to extricate ourselves from the mess they put us in.
 
I spent once 1 week in Ottawa... does that make me Canadian enough to post here?

Actually, out of that 1 week, I even ventured one day into hostile territory and risked my neck by going to Montreal

Toronoto is cool though.
 
bluepeter said:
So do we continue with a trade agreement that puts us in this position? We have heavy tariffs being slapped on some of our most lucrative exports, that did not and would not happen under the WTO. While getting our money back is important, first priority should be forcing the idiots running this country to extricate ourselves from the mess they put us in.
Not sure of getting out is the best solution as the money they owe us is not do to NAFTA it do to the US saying oh your more competive then us we are going to tax you for that. The soft wood lumber tarrifs were not part of NAFTA so I don't think getting out of NAFTA would completely solve the problem that being said it could be reworked some how.
 
superqt4u2nv said:
Not sure of getting out is the best solution as the money they owe us is not do to NAFTA it do to the US saying oh your more competive then us we are going to tax you for that. The soft wood lumber tarrifs were not part of NAFTA so I don't think getting out of NAFTA would completely solve the problem that being said it could be reworked some how.

Lumber tariffs are a direct result of NAFTA. Our lumber and wheat were not slapped with tariffs under the old WTO agreement.

Here is another excellent article on this fiasco:

The end of NAFTA: Canada signed away its energy and got nothing in return; the U.S. response to a recent lumber ruling shows it's time to get out

by David Orchard


For two decades those of us critical of the Canada-U.S. free-trade agreement (FTA), and its successor NAFTA, have pointed out that these agreements didn't give us free trade, but would cost us a large part of our sovereignty and national well-being.

Today, even promoters of the FTA as a "rules based" nirvana of "secure access" to the U.S. market -- and part of a move toward global "free trade" -- have been forced to face hard realities.

A couple of recent examples deserve examination. Recently, the China National Offshore Oil Corp. (CNOOC) was forced by what it called "unprecedented political opposition" in Washington to withdraw its open-market bid to buy California-based Unocal Corp. Congress saw the deal as a threat to American "energy security." U.S.-based Chevron is now almost certain to pick up Unocal -- for a substantially lower bid than that offered by CNOOC.

Canadians, on the other hand, living in a larger, colder country with a critical dependence on energy, have signed away under the free-trade agreements our energy security and -- even though our industry is far more foreign-controlled than that of the U.S. -- are told repeatedly by the government that we no longer have any need to own or control our oil and gas reserves.

While both other NAFTA countries have national energy policies focused on support for domestic ownership, last fall our finance minister, Ralph Goodale, told us it was time for Canada to get out of the energy business. The government announced the sale of its remaining Petro Canada shares at the bargain-basement price of $64.50 -- a fire sale begun in 1991, when shares now pushing $100 were sold for $13; more followed in 1996 at $20.

This month in British Columbia -- in the biggest foreign takeover since the 2002 purchase by U.S.-based Duke Energy of Westcoast Energy -- Texas-based Kinder Morgan picked up Terasen Inc., the province's largest natural gas distribution company and the biggest private-sector provider of water services in Western Canada. All of Terasen's pipelines, refineries, oil, gas and water operations are included in the deal, essentially stripping B.C. of domestic control of its energy supplies.

At a time of unprecedented energy hunger, as countries around the world scramble to secure energy supplies, and our prices escalate, Canadians are treated to an ongoing mantra about how we should be pleased that foreigners are buying up our energy industry and reserves. Federal Trade Minister Jim Peterson recently expressed satisfaction: "I would not be surprised if people from around the world wanted access to our energy or saw our energy companies as very good investments."

While spending billions and passing sweeping laws supposedly to protect against terrorist threats, real or imagined, our government is doing nothing to maintain domestic control over our rapidly dwindling non-renewable reserves of oil and natural gas, leading to the predictable and very real threat of skyrocketing energy prices to Canadian industry, agriculture and consumers.

While the so-called free-trade agreements handed Canada's ever-more-valuable energy over to U.S. industry through the forced proportional sharing and pricing clauses of the FTA (which Mexico refused to sign), did we get the secure access and rules-based regime that made it all worthwhile?

Maybe ask the lumber industry. After repeated, and ignored, FTA and NAFTA rulings in Canada's favour, where are we? A U.S. tariff has netted $5 billion. The U.S. response to the latest NAFTA panel ordering it to get rid of the tariff and return the $5 billion has been a yawn and a succinct rejection.

In a further mockery of free trade, under U.S. law, money from the tariffs collected by the U.S. is distributed to the companies initiating the challenges against Canada's industries -- an ongoing incentive for U.S. companies to continue targeting Canadian exports and attempting to impose tariffs on them.

When the U.S. speaks of its national security, the Canadian government salutes almost automatically, but who is protecting Canada's national interest?

Chasing the utopian dream of secure access to the U.S. economy has devastated our livestock industry, led to almost total U.S. ownership of our meat packing capacity and to repeated U.S. trade challenges and unprecedented tariffs on our grain and lumber, seen close to 20,000 Canadian companies (including the ownership of entire industries) move into U.S. hands in the last two decades, and left us holding a bag of ashes instead of reaping the rewards of our abundant energy supplies.

It is clear that the U.S. has pulled out of NAFTA. This means our energy resources are once again ours, as is our ability to determine our course in the world. We have everything we need to do so, except political leadership not afraid to give Canadians a direction of which we can all be proud and which will provide real security in times ahead.
 
*MissFit* said:
SORRY I FUKIN HATE THE CNDN GOVT...

THOSE FUKERS.. FUKERS FUKERS FUKERS FUKERS

:verygood:

I'm looking at your sig and thinking you should do something about this situation and write a letter or several letters to your elected representative.
 
my signature hun is giberish.. i wrote it to mean absolutely nothing...

The fukers say i didnt file a 2002 tax return.. is it my fault that their mail system failed them no....

:P

Why would i do a return and not file.. makes no bloody sense

:P

bluepeter said:
I'm looking at your sig and thinking you should do something about this situation and write a letter or several letters to your elected representative.
 
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