The rich get richer...

[Vicious cycle]

The rich get richer...
http://money.cnn.com/2005/05/25/pf/record_millionaires/

And the poor get poorer...
http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/30/news/economy/poverty_rate.reut/index.htm?cnn=yes

 

[CENTURION44]

GET A JOB...save your money..stop buying stuff you cant afford and maybe oneday...People will learn to be responsible....not you specifically but people in general...think fcken bankrupcy is like abortion....its way too fin easy in this country...

 

[bigmann245]

The rich get richer...
http://money.cnn.com/2005/05/25/pf/record_millionaires/

And the poor get poorer...
http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/30/news/economy/poverty_rate.reut/index.htm?cnn=yes

yea but soon a millionair is going to be like a thousandair. they say a million dollars just isnt what it used to be. not saying i wouldnt take it. but still.

 

[Vicious cycle]

GET A JOB...save your money..stop buying stuff you cant afford and maybe oneday...People will learn to be responsible....not you specifically but people in general...think fcken bankrupcy is like abortion....its way too fin easy in this country...

I hear ya, I really do. But I'm not so sure it's always that easy. On one hand personal responsability has gone to hell. On the other hand you keep your nose to the grind stone and give "da man" 40 years only to be told, "Sorry your life savings is shit now because big business never did give a crap about you." People like former Tyco International CEO Dennis Kozlowski, who blew tens of millions of Tyco money as if it was his own, spent $6,000 on a floral-patterned shower curtain have run off with your money.

I should have finished my first post with, "The rich get richer and the poor get poorer while the middle class becomes a thing of the past."

 

[Hiatussin]

The rich richer and the poor poorer sounds good to me. Maybe someday it will be affordable again to the run of the mill upper class guy to have a staff of 3 at his house.

 

[hamstershaver]

i was hoping someone had made a donation to the hamstershaver trust fund

 

[Hiatussin]

This means that soon security sector will fucking boom

both the electronics involved and staff

income contrasts trigger crime crime triggers crime defense

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

The middle class should be a thing of the past. It the result of legislative class warfare and repeated attacks on the wealthy; a true tyranny of the majority.

The market is finally correcting this through globalization and outsourcing.

'Bout time.

 

[Vicious cycle]

The middle class should be a thing of the past. It the result of legislative class warfare and repeated attacks on the wealthy; a true tyranny of the majority.

The market is finally correcting this through globalization and outsourcing.

'Bout time.

If you were in a building, I would be outside getting pepper sprayed and kicked by Gestapo like police while engaging in a peaceful demonstration against your attempts at globalization and outsourcing.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

If you were in a building, I would be outside getting pepper sprayed and kicked by Gestapo like police while engaging in a peaceful demonstration against your attempts at globalization and outsourcing.

Pay a lazy ass American with a degree from a shitty college al in costs of $55K to work from 9-5.

Pay a highly motivated Indian with multiple degrees from a competitive university all-in costs of $10K.

Tough call. Not

 

[Razorguns]

Move to LA. The middle-class is shrinking like you wouldn't believe.

We'll get to see exactly how MTSW's theory plays out.

 

[Vicious cycle]

Pay a lazy ass American with a degree from a shitty college al in costs of $55K to work from 9-5.

Pay a highly motivated Indian with multiple degrees from a competitive university all-in costs of $10K.

Tough call. Not

The Indian, who is motivated because his own Government can't get him his own work on the basis of their own economy, is trying to feed his kids and will work for whatever he can get. He gets the pittance from corporate fat cats spending $6,000 on shower curtains.

You know, I had some big long thing written up, but I’ll just say this. How would you like it if your boss showed up to tell you you were being replaced by a “highly motivated” Indian; mostly because your “lazy ass” won’t work for 10K a year 80 hours a week. Lot of good your non “shitty college” education will do you then. Cuz friend, I got news for you. Employers don’t give a rat’s nut which fancy college your diploma came from, if they can get somebody to do more for less…they will replace your “ass” in a skinny minute. Because you are right, that is not a tough call.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

The Indian, who is motivated because his own Government can't get him his own work on the basis of their own economy, is trying to feed his kids and will work for whatever he can get. He gets the pittance from corporate fat cats spending $6,000 on shower curtains.

It's a little more complex than that; I have employees on India. Usually the way it works is a few big poviders charge US corporations maybe $20K per person per year (all in), pay the Indian $6K, spend another $6k on facilities (which they amortize over the life of the deal), and then pocket the spread.

The longer the relationship, the more the Indian company makes; the issue here is really (1) are Indian companies stealing IP (probably) and (2) are Indians then outsourcing the work to poorer Asian countries? (often).

Smart US companies are signing short deals with outsource providers, learning the basics, and then setting up their own shop. Or so I am told

So I'm not understanding why you are talking about shower curtains???

You know, I had some big long thing written up, but I’ll just say this. How would you like it if your boss showed up to tell you you were being replaced by a “highly motivated” Indian; mostly because your “lazy ass” won’t work for 10K a year 80 hours a week. Lot of good your non “shitty college” education will do you then. Cuz friend, I got news for you. Employers don’t give a rat’s nut which fancy college your diploma came from, if they can get somebody to do more for less…they will replace your “ass” in a skinny minute. Because you are right, that is not a tough call.

How would I like it? What does that matter? Nothing runs on how you like it. I played college basketball, was damn good, big conference etc. Wanted to play pro ball, but wasn't good enough for the NBA. I didn't like it. Shit happens. I went another way.

As far as the rest of your post...why are you telling me this? I have employees in 5 countries. I know a lot about moving work to lower cost pools. I also know that employers who do this as a regular wage play get burned because the customer service drop off hurts their front ends.

The hybrid model usualy works best. I know this business very well.


It comes down to this: the American (corporate) jobs of the future will require very high level skill sets to manage globally diverse labor resources. The problem will be the faiure of our public education system to deliver it; nothing widens the gap between rich and poor like public education.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

You should read Freakonomics. Steven Dubner. You might like it.

Then you should get off the soapbox. You're ignoring economic realities for feel good conventional wisdom that has no basis in economic fact.

interesting ,
by your logic you favor a race to the bottom in terms of the purchase power of the very consumer you wish to sell to, bu payign them less and less
what WILL you do son when no one can or want to buy your uneeded innovations?

The creation of more wealth is always a race to the top. The location /distribution of the wealth is immaterial as far as purchasing power.

For what it is worth, the decrease in costs through global sourcing actually increases purchasing power as the costs of goods drop.

Amazingly, we had this system for the Industrial Revolution. And many people's standard of living increased. Please do not respond to me talking about the brutality of factories or inhuman working hours. These conditions were 100 times better than what proceeded it: agriculture. It was near oligarchy and yet the quality of amost everyone's life went up.

So much for the "race to the bottom."

I also assume you don't favor pesky environmental legislation that inhibits the freedom of business who need to cut costs all the time and don't need to think about the earth, the very earth they use for there wealth

Private property prevents pollution. the USSR and China pollute way more than the US ever has or ever will. Why am I even answering you when you are so poorly informed and speaking pure rhetoric? Your answers indicate little practical knowledge of economics.

by the way I always thought it funny how the elite push the common person around on a globe that is inhabited by us all, that is floating as a dust particle in the middle of nothing.
the comparison of what is goign on today in the SHEER disparity of wealth to poverty is akin to a cave man saying to his whole tribe "hey you see this mountain with all it water, energy and food? I own it, now work for me"

This is completely worthless as a substantive discussion point.

get over it.....

Yawn.

I hope you see that the very common person you despise and resent would be the only ones to help you out of a ditch when the wind blows you house of cards down down down.......

This is also completely worthless. How is this supposed ot be useful in a discussion? serously?

if all you want to talk abou ti sappeals to emotion, there is little I can say in response. You're the equivalent of the American populist politician....

 

[Lestat]

The country is getting more religous too. Interesting coincidence..

 

[Hiatussin]

So... what about revolution?

doesnt it sort of happen as a law of nature beyond a certain spread? if 1% owns 99% of stuff people are going to be pissed regardless of any philosophy that says they shouldnt

I also find your statement describing the middle class as a creation of unjust government intervention to be rather radical. Why wouldn´t there exist a whole spectrum of market values a worker can have?

 

[Vicious cycle]

So... what about revolution?

doesnt it sort of happen as a law of nature beyond a certain spread? if 1% owns 99% of stuff people are going to be pissed regardless of any philosophy that says they shouldnt

I also find your statement describing the middle class as a creation of unjust government intervention to be rather radical. Why wouldn´t there exist a whole spectrum of market values a worker can have?

Who was this too?

 

[Hiatussin]

Who was this too?

Matt

 

[Vicious cycle]

How would I like it? What does that matter? Nothing runs on how you like it. I played college basketball, was damn good, big conference etc. Wanted to play pro ball, but wasn't good enough for the NBA. I didn't like it. Shit happens. I went another way.

It sounds like you've really been blessed in life; good for you. Others are not so fortunate. A lot of poor people in this country are forced to risk there lives in the armed forces for the chance at one of those "shitty college" degrees that you spoke of earlier.

I also know that employers who do this as a regular wage play get burned because the customer service drop off hurts their front ends.

That usually isn't enough to deter the crappy outsourcing. How many times have we all picked up the phone for some tech support only to be frustrated because the person on the other end is someone you can't understand. Earthlink here where I live dropped 400 local employees from tech support and outsourced it to India. 400 real people with real families. Then Earthlink has the nerve to run ads showing there techs (all well spoken Americans to be sure). It was very insulting to people around here and wasn't entirly true.

I'm sure your next thought is, "So". Well Matt, you seem very versed on the economic end of things, no doubt about that. I do question, like Earthlink and countless other companies, your understanding of the human side of the equation.

It comes down to this: the American (corporate) jobs of the future will require very high level skill sets to manage globally diverse labor resources. The problem will be the faiure of our public education system to deliver it; nothing widens the gap between rich and poor like public education.

Someone has to be the chief (corporate jobs) and someone has to be the worker. Paying the worker like he doesn't exsist or matter is not the solution but part of the problem. Our public education system IS failing our children for sure, but it is what the poor and middle class have.

 

[Vicious cycle]

Hard to believe I'm a Republican isn't it.

 

[-SD-]

Hard to believe I'm a Republican isn't it.

Not really. Im staunchly pro choice and have been dating a liberal black woman for almost a year (im white). Im also VP of my college Republicans organization. Go figure.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

It sounds like you've really been blessed in life; good for you. Others are not so fortunate. A lot of poor people in this country are forced to risk there lives in the armed forces for the chance at one of those "shitty college" degrees that you spoke of earlier.

Assumptions are great. You know what else is great? Thai food. But that's neither here nor there.

Anyway....

I did my time in the US Army, (Infantry Officer) I know who joins and what it's all about. I paid my own way through school with an athletic scholarship.

I guess if I am fortunate, it is that I realized early on that to do better than the people around ou, you have to do MORE than the people around you.

That usually isn't enough to deter the crappy outsourcing. How many times have we all picked up the phone for some tech support only to be frustrated because the person on the other end is someone you can't understand. Earthlink here where I live dropped 400 local employees from tech support and outsourced it to India. 400 real people with real families. Then Earthlink has the nerve to run ads showing there techs (all well spoken Americans to be sure). It was very insulting to people around here and wasn't entirly true.

Earthlink probably lost business as a result. Markets correct bad decisions. If they have not, they will. Businesses in all sectors are starting to realize that the customer service sections have to stay US based.

I'm sure your next thought is, "So". Well Matt, you seem very versed on the economic end of things, no doubt about that. I do question, like Earthlink and countless other companies, your understanding of the human side of the equation.

I have ~115 employees. I have never laid one off. (I've fired people for cause). We have investors screaming at us to "increase margins."

I'm not talking about this like it is an abstraction I read in a book. I do this shit every day. I live this world. For most people it's a political topic.

Someone has to be the chief (corporate jobs) and someone has to be the worker. Paying the worker like he doesn't exsist or matter is not the solution but part of the problem. Our public education system IS failing our children for sure, but it is what the poor and middle class have.

We have to accept certain market realities. One of them is that well educated foreign workers are going to undercut us dramatically on labor costs. Manufacturing....gone to China.

These are realities that are not changing.

You can't look at the education system and say "this is all we have" and generate policies off of that. The reverse must be applied: look at market realities and use that to set policy.

 

[Vicious cycle]

Assumptions are great. You know what else is great? Thai food. But that's neither here nor there.

Anyway.....

I'm not sure what all that means or has to do with the topic. But that's neither here nor there. Accept Thai food sucks.

Anyway....

I did my time in the US Army, (Infantry Officer) I know who joins and what it's all about. I paid my own way through school with an athletic scholarship.

My GOD, what haven't you done! I'm glad to see you know what the military is all about. It would have just been shorter to type, "you're right, poor people do have to risk their lives for an education in America".

I guess if I am fortunate, it is that I realized early on that to do better than the people around ou, you have to do MORE than the people around you.

I don't know about that. Between your military, big time basketball and owning a company; it sounds like you've done a lot more than someone like Terrell Owens. But, he could buy and sell you like cheese whiz.

Earthlink probably lost business as a result. Markets correct bad decisions. If they have not, they will. Businesses in all sectors are starting to realize that the customer service sections have to stay US based.

This is just your POV. I think otherwise, not a single person I know thinks customer service is any good. It's a Wal-Mart world and they don't give a rats nut about peoles issues with customer service. These companies are getting richer while the consumer gets the shaft. It's no different than Gov't. People just shrug their shoulders and say, "O'well, you can't fight the man".

Earthlink is only off $2 from it's 52 week high. While Dell and others famous for the American Pie look while shipping services to India look fairly good on the books.

I have ~115 employees. I have never laid one off. (I've fired people for cause). We have investors screaming at us to "increase margins."

I'm not talking about this like it is an abstraction I read in a book. I do this shit every day. I live this world. For most people it's a political topic..

This is exactly why I think you look at it like it is an abstraction you read in a book. See MTSW, we all live in this world and not just people like you. We all do this shit everyday. Might isn't right, the person with the fancyiest diploma doesn't always get the best job/highest paying and while like you said, trying real hard helps; it's more often who know/blow that will get you further than anything you've talked about.

We have to accept certain market realities. One of them is that well educated foreign workers are going to undercut us dramatically on labor costs. Manufacturing....gone to China.

These are realities that are not changing.

You can't look at the education system and say "this is all we have" and generate policies off of that. The reverse must be applied: look at market realities and use that to set policy.

You’re right and the reality is that outsourcing and your globalization mentality is what is making the economic gap in this country widen. The very people/market companies are trying to sell to are the same people they are paying less to and laying off. Pardon the pun, but it’s a vicious cycle downward.

Companies in this country can afford to pay a good wage and still turn a decent buck. They just refuse to do so, this is where the mentality has to stop. Not with the worker, but the corperate fat cats.

Your right again, Manufacturing....gone to China. And those folks were to all be "retrained" mostly in IT jobs. Opps, sorry 10 years after the economic boom that was the IT in the 90's is gone and those folks are losing there jobs a second time to IT overseas. Americans don't build or make much of anything anymore. No more great jobs left, fancy diploma or no. We're all taking a lead from the President and living off of credit and hoping the housing bubble doesn't pop. It's going to be a nice second class country and soon.

 

[Hiatussin]

Can´t everyone go to college on a loan in the USA?

or only if you get good grades?

Most "humanist" government interventions are dreamcastles that deny natural forces and end up being counterproductive.

But giving someone an education can be a good depth-investment. It can also be made by private power though.

 

[Vicious cycle]

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to MattTheSkywalker again.

I do so look forward to these jousts.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

I'm not sure what all that means or has to do with the topic. But that's neither here nor there. Accept Thai food sucks.

That's it. we're fighting.

My GOD, what haven't you done! I'm glad to see you know what the military is all about. It would have just been shorter to type, "you're right, poor people do have to risk their lives for an education in America".

No they don't. That's 100% propaganda on you part and you know this. There are legions of programs available for all to go to school; the GI Bill is one of literally hundreds of opportunities.

I don't know about that. Between your military, big time basketball and owning a company; it sounds like you've done a lot more than someone like Terrell Owens. But, he could buy and sell you like cheese whiz.

Yep, it's been 30 amazing years. More to come. I don't think the presence of people who are richer than I am proves or disproves anything. I never set out the be the richest in the world, just to do the best I can for me, but (since you apparently want to make it personal) by age 40 I will have passed the TO's of this world as if they were standing still.

This is just your POV. I think otherwise, not a single person I know thinks customer service is any good. It's a Wal-Mart world and they don't give a rats nut about peoles issues with customer service. These companies are getting richer while the consumer gets the shaft. It's no different than Gov't. People just shrug their shoulders and say, "O'well, you can't fight the man".

It's not just "my POV." Legions of companies are realizing you have to keep the customer service stuff at home. Southwest and Jet Blue...the most profitable airlines, you'll talk to Americans. (Delta has tried outsourcing all centers, and soon they will be bankrupt. Cheapest is not always best)

Progressive Insurance, same...Americans helping you over the phone, and they are innovative and profitable as that biz gets. Cingular, Americans on the phone too. Companies are beginning to realize that custore facing activities should be American - performed.

If companies want to risk customer service, then that's their call; if it really matters, markets will correct it. If people shrug their shoulders about anything, that's their own fault sir.

Earthlink is only off $2 from it's 52 week high. While Dell and others famous for the American Pie look while shipping services to India look fairly good on the books.

At the same time, Dell's quality product is affordable to more and more people.

This is exactly why I think you look at it like it is an abstraction you read in a book. See MTSW, we all live in this world and not just people like you. We all do this shit everyday. Might isn't right, the person with the fancyiest diploma doesn't always get the best job/highest paying and while like you said, trying real hard helps; it's more often who know/blow that will get you further than anything you've talked about.

Appealing to emotion wins votes for politicians, but it doesn't convince anyone intelligent of anything, and it doesn't get anything done.

Life isn't fair, you can't make it fair, and I would have rather been born into great wealth than had to start from the middle of the pack. Too bad. What else do you want me to say on this? At least I got to start from the middle. What can I tell you?

You’re right and the reality is that outsourcing and your globalization mentality is what is making the economic gap in this country widen. The very people/market companies are trying to sell to are the same people they are paying less to and laying off. Pardon the pun, but it’s a vicious cycle downward.

The creation of more wealth is never a cycle downward. You've not debated the creation of more wealth; your issue is the distribution. More wealth is always better than less. The inhibition of the creation of wealth through protectionism is the beginning of the downward spiral.

Companies in this country can afford to pay a good wage and still turn a decent buck. They just refuse to do so, this is where the mentality has to stop. Not with the worker, but the corperate fat cats.

This is a generalization unsupported by any economic data. Outsourcing also lowers prices and puts more goods into the hands of more people.

Your right again, Manufacturing....gone to China. And those folks were to all be "retrained" mostly in IT jobs. Opps, sorry 10 years after the economic boom that was the IT in the 90's is gone and those folks are losing there jobs a second time to IT overseas. Americans don't build or make much of anything anymore. No more great jobs left, fancy diploma or no. We're all taking a lead from the President and living off of credit and hoping the housing bubble doesn't pop. It's going to be a nice second class country and soon.

I'll ignore all the rhetoric (since most of what you posted is exactly that) just to say this:

The other side of the coin is that there is a larger-than-ever labor pool available to creative and enterprising americans. Oportunities to create wealth are greater than ever before. The US can and will maintain its presence as a global superpower if we learn how to manage these disparate resources.

Rather than complaining, that's what Americans need to do. Sadly, our education system is ill equipped to provide that.

 

[Vicious cycle]

None of it was meant to be personal. I have no doubt you know that. And I too will ignore all the rhetoric (since most of what you posted is exactly that).

Truth is my first post speaks volumes. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. The rich say it's the poors own fault and the poor say it's the riches fault. And that ain't never going to change.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

None of it was meant to be personal. I have no doubt you know that. And I too will ignore all the rhetoric (since most of what you posted is exactly that).

Truth is my first post speaks volumes. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. The rich say it's the poors own fault and the poor say it's the riches fault. And that ain't never going to change.

well, we can disagree here and there...but the point about the institutionalized shortcomings of the education system are beyond debate, no?

 

[-SD-]

well, we can disagree here and there...but the point about the institutionalized shortcomings of the education system are beyond debate, no?

It is beyond debate. IMO

 

[Hiatussin]

well, we can disagree here and there...but the point about the institutionalized shortcomings of the education system are beyond debate, no?

Theres so much dreaming and philosophizing about what a truely libertarian nation would function like, can´t we just designate some nation as an experiment? I´m pretty fucking curious how it would go. Or would you label south american nations like brazil and venezuela libertarian?

The USA IS libertarian compared to Europe though.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Theres so much dreaming and philosophizing about what a truely libertarian nation would function like, can´t we just designate some nation as an experiment? I´m pretty fucking curious how it would go. Or would you label south american nations like brazil and venezuela libertarian?

The USA IS libertarian compared to Europe though.

US in the post reconstruction 1800's.

All we did was the Industrial revolution.

Capitalism works bor. It creaes more wealth than any other system. It's not agreeable with democracy, though because the majority can vote themselves money from the productive minority....as happens here.

 

[Hiatussin]

US in the post reconstruction 1800's.

All we did was the Industrial revolution.

Capitalism works bor. It creaes more wealth than any other system. It's not agreeable with democracy, though because the majority can vote themselves money from the productive minority....as happens here.

oh I know im a believer. theres just no case example of true complete radical capitalism in the present world. 1800 isn´t like now

I believe it should be able to work. skyrocket even. I just wanna see it

 

[GoldenDelicious]

Capitalism works bor. It creaes more wealth than any other system. It's not agreeable with democracy, though because the majority can vote themselves money from the productive minority....as happens here.

the "productive minority" you speak of are merely those that control the working majority through the apparatus of capitalism. the controlling minority needs the working majority far more than than the latter needs the former. its capitalistic despotism at play.

the end game of capitalism is a centralisation of power so unbalanced, in terms of freedom and a fair go for the average person, that arguments about efficiency and productivity fall over in the face of the dehumanisation of the consuming populace. you just end up with a big people farm.

the ability of the populace to "vote for money from the wealthy" is culturally and socially indispensable, imo, or our world will slide towards despotic feudalism, which is just ugly

cheerios

 

[OMEGA]

for anyone that is immune to Matt the skywalkers self massaging propoganda

I urge you to read some Chinese intellectual papers on economic written 100 years ago ( before communism)


when your under the crushing heel Matt then you will see what we spoke of

forboding warning of events we will all see in our life time

and its Greedy idiologies like yours that helped it happen ( no offense)

 

[OMEGA]

Golden Deliciuos and Vicious Cycle

refeshing points of view, there is still a pulse of reason on the boards I see

peole like Matt and other need to suffer like us for a bit to understand

 

[GoldenDelicious]

Golden Deliciuos and Vicious Cycle

refeshing points of view, there is still a pulse of reason on the boards I see

peole like Matt and other need to suffer like us for a bit to understand

me? suffer?

not with these looks, baby

 

[Vicious cycle]

well, we can disagree here and there...but the point about the institutionalized shortcomings of the education system are beyond debate, no?

Based on this I would have to say you are correct:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...archive/1998/02/25/MN54903.DTL&type=printable

*EDIT*
Just found this:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168107,00.html

COMPARING U.S. SCORES WITH OTHER NATIONS
Test scores of 5,400 seniors in 210 public and private high schools were compared with seniors in other nations in four subjects: advanced math, physics, general math and general science. Among
16 countries, U.S. seniors outperformed only Austria in advanced math. In physics, U.S. seniors ranked dead last. Below are the rankings of all 21 countries that participated in the comparison of general math and science knowledge.

Percent answering correctly: U.S.: 42%, International: 61%
GENERAL MATH
Nation Average score
Netherlands 560
Sweden 552
Denmark 547
Switzerland 540
Iceland 534
Norway 528
France 523
New Zealand 522
Australia 522
Canada 519
Austria 518
Slovenia 512
INTERNATIONAL AVERAGE 500
Germany 495
Hungary 483
Italy 476
Russian Federation 471
Lithuania 469
Czech Republic 466
United States 461
Cyprus 446
South Africa 356

GENERAL SCIENCE
Nation Average score
Sweden 559
Netherlands 558
Iceland 549
Norway 544
Canada 532
New Zealand 529
Australia 527
Switzerland 523
Austria 520
Slovenia 517
Denmark 509
INTERNATIONAL AVERAGE 500
Germany 497
France 487
Czech Republic 487
Russian Federation 481
United States 480
Italy 475
Hungary 471
Lithuania 461
Cyprus 448
South Africa 349

Golden Deliciuos and Vicious Cycle

refeshing points of view, there is still a pulse of reason on the boards I see

peole like Matt and other need to suffer like us for a bit to understand

Thanks. K to you friend. It's good dialogue like this and not name calling that helps. So many times I see different points of view on this board end up in a, “Screw you; no screw you” scream fest.