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The more I study WWII
- Thread starter Phenom78
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Phenom78
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superdave said:
Put aside the preceeding years to the war for a moment, which are themselves rich in material.
After WWII began. The vacillation. The pathological lying to friends and allies without point or reason. The constant changing of his mind. Treating Churchill as a greater potential threat than Stalin. The idea that it would be ok for all of Europe to be overrun by the Russians because over time Western European presence in that totalitarian regime would somehow "mellow out" the Russians (that was an actual policy lol). The way he became nothing more than a rubber stamp for Soviet totalitarian aspirations.......
Even in the decision to invade Europe through France.
Blunder after blunder
Phenom78
New member
Lestat said:
Bad guy infers a purposeful intent. If I intentionally run you over Im a bad guy. If instead I do so unintentionally I may be a host of things depending on the particulars, but not a bad guy per se.
I'm not proffering the claim he did so with intent, but through incompetence and insanity.
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Gambino
Guest
interesting phenom
historical school books paint him as a democratic saint
historical school books paint him as a democratic saint
CrazyRussian
Banned
Phenom78 said:
I stopped reading after the bolded part
Phenom78
New member
CrazyRussian said:I stopped reading after the bolded part
Because you are silly.
Read Churchill's diaries, as well as those of his Foreign Minister who were present. Even FDR's people acknowledge as much, only somewhat more generously coucjed in the suggestion that his illness had effected his mind and reasoning skills.
Phenom78
New member
Ludendorf said:
It is amazing the shallow veneer portrayed in secondary school history texts. In fairness, at least when I was a kid, they were still generally more "Pro American" in their representation of history. Also I imagine they were never intended to delve very deeply.
patsfan1379
New member
Phenom78 said:
do you have a job?
patsfan1379
New member
Phenom78 said:
no seriously... do you have a job? id be interested to hear what you do!
patsfan1379
New member
cool
Lestat said:
Stalin. Actually the whole inner circle of the communist USSR pretty much was. We went after the wrong guy.
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Gambino
Guest
hanselthecaretaker said:
i dunno 'bout that bor
pretty bold to say that hitler should have been left alone
he was too destructive
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Spartacus
Guest
when it was over too(june'44)Phenom78 said:
should have invaded southern france in '43
stupid to go into Italy
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Spartacus
Guest
Hitler wanted peace with the british,part of the reason he allowed the BEF to escape europe at dunkirkLudendorf said:
his destructive goals were in the east
stalin or hitler,either way those people were fucked
still are
Ludendorf said:
Maybe territorially speaking, however Stalin still had the highest death toll (of his own people no less) regardless of whatever total they throw around for the Holocaust. No one talks about that though. And then we had the Cold War to go through as well as the residual effects of communism still being felt today through other repressive countries that presently we also have to deal with.
Marx was right about the transition to communism from capitalism. It's not happening abruptly, but it's happening right here in the states. It takes some outside the box type of thinking to realize it of course.
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Spartacus
Guest
patton was mediocremanny78 said:
wtf did he do so outstanding?
bunch of overblown hype
he sent a few hundred men on a mission really late war to rescue his nephew or some shit
most of them died
I'll google it
Task Force Baum Controversy
On March 24th, shortly after completing his crossing of the Rhine, Patton ordered US XII Corps Commander MG Manton Eddy to undertake an immediate operation to liberate the OFLAG XIII-B prison camp at Hammelburg, some 80km behind enemy lines. Eddy strongly argued against the necessity and prudence of the raid, reportedly going so far as to refuse to pass the order to the US 4th Armored Division until General Eisenhower could be contacted for approval. Patton, having no desire to involve Eisenhower (who was already well acquainted with Patton's headstrong tendencies and would likely have cancelled the operation), flew to the XII Corps command post at Undenheim, waited until Eddy left for dinner, and personally delivered the operation order to BG Hoge of US 4th AD. Noting that intelligence indicated a strong Wehrmacht and possible SS Panzer presence in the area of the camp (as well as its relative distance from the line), Hoge and "Combat Command B" Commander LTC Creighton Abrams relayed to Patton that no less than a full Combat Command would be required. Patton rejected this request, insisting instead that only a limited task force be sent. He also mandated that his aide-de-camp and personal friend, MAJ Alexander Stiller would accompany the force merely "to gain experience".[1]
The task force, named Task Force Baum (for being led by CPT Abraham Baum), fought valiantly through significant resistance to successfully liberate the camp, but was too exhausted and reduced in size from 52 hours of continuous fighting to successfully penetrate the noose of Wermacht reinforcements that were rapidly swarming into the area to surround them. The bulk of the remaining force was hacked to pieces and routed in the woods around Hammelburg, with the survivors being captured. A few managed to evade the Germans and return to American lines.
After the news of the operation became public, it was revealed that Patton's motivation for ordering the operation against apparent common sense and the strident objections of his contemporaries was most probably personal: he had been informed on February 9th by General Eisenhower that his son-in-law, LTC John K. Waters, captured in North Africa in 1943, was being held at Hammelburg. Until this information came out, Patton had always insisted he had no knowledge of Waters' whereabouts. Upon further review, Patton's explanation for insisting that MAJ Stiller should accompany the force also didn't hold water; as a decorated WWI officer, Stiller had already seen significantly more combat than most men in Task Force Baum, and (most importantly) as a personal friend of Patton's family, he had met LTC Waters and would be able to identify his face. Furthermore, Patton had always insisted that the operation to liberate the camp at Hammelburg was motivated by a deep concern for the welfare and safety of captured US servicemen, yet in an ironic twist, after MAJ Stiller was captured following the destruction of the task force, Patton refused to undertake an operation to liberate the camp at which he and other survivors were held, even though it was much closer to the 3rd Army line of advance than Hammelburg had been, and contained nearly twice as many troops. Patton's superior, General Omar Bradley, later famously characterized the raid as "a wild goose-chase that ended in a tragedy."[2]
On March 24th, shortly after completing his crossing of the Rhine, Patton ordered US XII Corps Commander MG Manton Eddy to undertake an immediate operation to liberate the OFLAG XIII-B prison camp at Hammelburg, some 80km behind enemy lines. Eddy strongly argued against the necessity and prudence of the raid, reportedly going so far as to refuse to pass the order to the US 4th Armored Division until General Eisenhower could be contacted for approval. Patton, having no desire to involve Eisenhower (who was already well acquainted with Patton's headstrong tendencies and would likely have cancelled the operation), flew to the XII Corps command post at Undenheim, waited until Eddy left for dinner, and personally delivered the operation order to BG Hoge of US 4th AD. Noting that intelligence indicated a strong Wehrmacht and possible SS Panzer presence in the area of the camp (as well as its relative distance from the line), Hoge and "Combat Command B" Commander LTC Creighton Abrams relayed to Patton that no less than a full Combat Command would be required. Patton rejected this request, insisting instead that only a limited task force be sent. He also mandated that his aide-de-camp and personal friend, MAJ Alexander Stiller would accompany the force merely "to gain experience".[1]
The task force, named Task Force Baum (for being led by CPT Abraham Baum), fought valiantly through significant resistance to successfully liberate the camp, but was too exhausted and reduced in size from 52 hours of continuous fighting to successfully penetrate the noose of Wermacht reinforcements that were rapidly swarming into the area to surround them. The bulk of the remaining force was hacked to pieces and routed in the woods around Hammelburg, with the survivors being captured. A few managed to evade the Germans and return to American lines.
After the news of the operation became public, it was revealed that Patton's motivation for ordering the operation against apparent common sense and the strident objections of his contemporaries was most probably personal: he had been informed on February 9th by General Eisenhower that his son-in-law, LTC John K. Waters, captured in North Africa in 1943, was being held at Hammelburg. Until this information came out, Patton had always insisted he had no knowledge of Waters' whereabouts. Upon further review, Patton's explanation for insisting that MAJ Stiller should accompany the force also didn't hold water; as a decorated WWI officer, Stiller had already seen significantly more combat than most men in Task Force Baum, and (most importantly) as a personal friend of Patton's family, he had met LTC Waters and would be able to identify his face. Furthermore, Patton had always insisted that the operation to liberate the camp at Hammelburg was motivated by a deep concern for the welfare and safety of captured US servicemen, yet in an ironic twist, after MAJ Stiller was captured following the destruction of the task force, Patton refused to undertake an operation to liberate the camp at which he and other survivors were held, even though it was much closer to the 3rd Army line of advance than Hammelburg had been, and contained nearly twice as many troops. Patton's superior, General Omar Bradley, later famously characterized the raid as "a wild goose-chase that ended in a tragedy."[2]
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Spartacus
Guest
yup
shit like that is all I need to know about a man
I'll present a good contrast
from an "evil" German
shit like that is all I need to know about a man
I'll present a good contrast
from an "evil" German
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Spartacus
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Spartacus
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Spartacus
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A big part of the reason that Lt. Col. Everett worked so hard to free the Malmedy Massacre accused was that Peiper was a likable, charming man with a charismatic personality. But this was not enough to sway the judges of the American military tribunal, who regarded all SS men as evil. It didn't help that the name of Peiper's outfit contained the words "Adolf Hitler" or that they wore the infamous Death's Head emblem on their caps. The SS guards in the infamous concentration camps wore the same symbol on their caps which might have caused some confusion in the minds of the Americans.
After Lt. Col. Everett raised hell about the way the Malmedy Massacre proceedings at Dachau had been conducted, things changed somewhat. In another Dachau proceeding, which began in August 1947, Lt. Col. Otto Skorzeny and nine others were charged as war criminals for the illegal use of US Army uniforms and with killing more than 100 Prisoners of War during the Battle of the Bulge. Lt. Col. Rosenfeld was also the law member of the panel of judges in this proceeding, but this time he allowed defense testimony that US troops had worn German uniforms in combat during World War II in similar efforts to confuse the enemy.
An affidavit from the Malmedy Massacre proceeding was introduced by the prosecution in the Skorzeny case, and when the defense protested, Lt. Col. Rosenfeld dropped the charges of killing POWs. There were no corroborating witnesses for the killings, and Rosenfeld ruled that the case could not be tried on affidavits alone. This was an important ruling because in all the war crimes military tribunals conducted in Germany after World War II, witnesses were not required to appear in person and affidavits were allowed to be entered, so that the defense had no opportunity to cross-examine the person who signed the affidavit.
Although there was an automatic review process in which American military personnel reviewed all the Dachau proceedings, there was no appeal process for war crimes verdicts handed down by the American military court. This did not seem fair to Everett, who was a southern gentleman from a prominent family in Atlanta, GA. Everett prepared a 228-page analysis of the pre-trial interrogations and the trial, which he sent to the officers who would be conducting the automatic review of the case. This report included the accusations against the prosecution interrogators.
When 12 of the death sentences were upheld by the review board, including that of Col. Jochen Peiper, Everett decided to petition the US Supreme Court for a writ of habeas corpus on the grounds that the 73 accused were being illegally held in Landsberg prison after being convicted as a result of "illegal and fraudulently procured confessions."
When the news of Everett's charges, that the Malmedy Massacre accused had been forced to sign confessions, was leaked to the media, the American public was outraged. World War II was "the Good War" in which Americans fought for their democratic ideals and their freedom. The Malmedy Massacre case had made a mockery of the rights of the accused to a fair trial. This was not the American way. American soldiers had fought and died to preserve this freedom.
The scandal was even worse because the interrogators and the law member of the panel of judges, who were accused of violating the rights of the accused in the Malmedy Massacre case, were Jews who had used their power to get revenge on the defeated Germans for the Nazi crimes against the Jews. There was criticism of the case because so many of the Jews on the prosecution team were not native-born Americans. For example, Everett called them "recent arrivals" and author Freda Utley referred to them as "un-American."
After Lt. Col. Everett raised hell about the way the Malmedy Massacre proceedings at Dachau had been conducted, things changed somewhat. In another Dachau proceeding, which began in August 1947, Lt. Col. Otto Skorzeny and nine others were charged as war criminals for the illegal use of US Army uniforms and with killing more than 100 Prisoners of War during the Battle of the Bulge. Lt. Col. Rosenfeld was also the law member of the panel of judges in this proceeding, but this time he allowed defense testimony that US troops had worn German uniforms in combat during World War II in similar efforts to confuse the enemy.
An affidavit from the Malmedy Massacre proceeding was introduced by the prosecution in the Skorzeny case, and when the defense protested, Lt. Col. Rosenfeld dropped the charges of killing POWs. There were no corroborating witnesses for the killings, and Rosenfeld ruled that the case could not be tried on affidavits alone. This was an important ruling because in all the war crimes military tribunals conducted in Germany after World War II, witnesses were not required to appear in person and affidavits were allowed to be entered, so that the defense had no opportunity to cross-examine the person who signed the affidavit.
Although there was an automatic review process in which American military personnel reviewed all the Dachau proceedings, there was no appeal process for war crimes verdicts handed down by the American military court. This did not seem fair to Everett, who was a southern gentleman from a prominent family in Atlanta, GA. Everett prepared a 228-page analysis of the pre-trial interrogations and the trial, which he sent to the officers who would be conducting the automatic review of the case. This report included the accusations against the prosecution interrogators.
When 12 of the death sentences were upheld by the review board, including that of Col. Jochen Peiper, Everett decided to petition the US Supreme Court for a writ of habeas corpus on the grounds that the 73 accused were being illegally held in Landsberg prison after being convicted as a result of "illegal and fraudulently procured confessions."
When the news of Everett's charges, that the Malmedy Massacre accused had been forced to sign confessions, was leaked to the media, the American public was outraged. World War II was "the Good War" in which Americans fought for their democratic ideals and their freedom. The Malmedy Massacre case had made a mockery of the rights of the accused to a fair trial. This was not the American way. American soldiers had fought and died to preserve this freedom.
The scandal was even worse because the interrogators and the law member of the panel of judges, who were accused of violating the rights of the accused in the Malmedy Massacre case, were Jews who had used their power to get revenge on the defeated Germans for the Nazi crimes against the Jews. There was criticism of the case because so many of the Jews on the prosecution team were not native-born Americans. For example, Everett called them "recent arrivals" and author Freda Utley referred to them as "un-American."
Patton's view on russians:
"The difficulty in understanding the Russian is that we do not take cognizance of the fact that he is not a European, but an Asiatic, and therefore thinks deviously. We can no more understand a Russian than a Chinese or a Japanese, and from what I have seen of them, I have no particular desire to understand them except to ascertain how much lead or iron it takes to kill them. In addition to his other amiable characteristics, the Russian has no regard for human life and they are all out sons-of-bitches, barbarians, and chronic drunks"
"The difficulty in understanding the Russian is that we do not take cognizance of the fact that he is not a European, but an Asiatic, and therefore thinks deviously. We can no more understand a Russian than a Chinese or a Japanese, and from what I have seen of them, I have no particular desire to understand them except to ascertain how much lead or iron it takes to kill them. In addition to his other amiable characteristics, the Russian has no regard for human life and they are all out sons-of-bitches, barbarians, and chronic drunks"
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Spartacus
Guest
Lt. Col. Everett was British
Peiper was the last official casualty of world war two
in 1976 he was hunted down and killed by some french
Peiper was the last official casualty of world war two
in 1976 he was hunted down and killed by some french
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Spartacus
Guest
On the 9th January 1943 the LAH returned to Russia to a rather desperate situation. Stalingrad was surrounded and through the gap in the German lines the Russians were aiming at the important Junction City of Kharkov. The 1st Panzer corps (LAH & Reich) held the 8th Guards army who were probing for a weak spot. They found it to the north east of the LAH’s position where the 320th “Green Heart” Infantry Division were holding out in the small town of Stary Oskol which is North of Kharkov. General Postel ordered his division to retreat to the Donetz. They had 1500 wounded and were moving so slowly that they risked being destroyed.
Dietrich ordered Peiper to proceed with his troops and a column of ambulances to save what was left of them, in a fighting retreat. Peiper commanded the IIIrd battalion of Panzer Grenadiers. He met Postel’s men and told them to proceed to a wooden bridge over the Udy River at Krasnya Polyana (which he had just cleared of Russians) while he spread out to provide cover. He waited all the afternoon but no enemy appeared. On returning to the bridge he discovered that the bodies of the wounded had been mutilated and that the survivors were involved in a fierce fight with a Russian snowshoe battalion. Peiper & his men attacked at once firing from the hip as they ran through the snow. The battle raged for several hours until the snowshoe battalion was wiped out. As the bridge was too flimsy for Peiper’s half-tracks he had to turn back into the Russian lines and fight his way though to another bridge. General Postel was not impressed and did not mention Peiper in his report but Dietrich awarded Peiper the Knight’s Cross for his exploit.
Dietrich ordered Peiper to proceed with his troops and a column of ambulances to save what was left of them, in a fighting retreat. Peiper commanded the IIIrd battalion of Panzer Grenadiers. He met Postel’s men and told them to proceed to a wooden bridge over the Udy River at Krasnya Polyana (which he had just cleared of Russians) while he spread out to provide cover. He waited all the afternoon but no enemy appeared. On returning to the bridge he discovered that the bodies of the wounded had been mutilated and that the survivors were involved in a fierce fight with a Russian snowshoe battalion. Peiper & his men attacked at once firing from the hip as they ran through the snow. The battle raged for several hours until the snowshoe battalion was wiped out. As the bridge was too flimsy for Peiper’s half-tracks he had to turn back into the Russian lines and fight his way though to another bridge. General Postel was not impressed and did not mention Peiper in his report but Dietrich awarded Peiper the Knight’s Cross for his exploit.
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Spartacus
Guest
Dietrich ordered Peiper to proceed with his troops and a column of ambulances to save what was left of them, in a fighting retreat. Peiper commanded the IIIrd battalion of Panzer Grenadiers. He met Postel’s men and told them to proceed to a wooden bridge over the Udy River at Krasnya Polyana (which he had just cleared of Russians) while he spread out to provide cover. He waited all the afternoon but no enemy appeared. On returning to the bridge he discovered that the bodies of the wounded had been mutilated and that the survivors were involved in a fierce fight with a Russian snowshoe battalion. Peiper & his men attacked at once firing from the hip as they ran through the snow. The battle raged for several hours until the snowshoe battalion was wiped out. As the bridge was too flimsy for Peiper’s half-tracks he had to turn back into the Russian lines and fight his way though to another bridge.
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Spartacus
Guest
that's the caliber of a man that men follow
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Spartacus
Guest
....two of the "un-American" investigators employed by the U.S. Army to extract "confessions" from German prisoners of war, namely, Lt. Colonel Ellis and Lt. Perl, told Judge Von Roden of the Simpson Commission in 1949 that force was necessary in view of the difficulty in obtaining evidence. Perl said: "We had to use persuasive methods." He further admitted that these methods included "some violence and mock trials," and that the prosecution's case in the Malmedy cases rested on the evidence thus obtained.
Colonel A.H. Rosenfeld, who was Chief of the Dachau branch of the U.S. War Crimes Administration until he resigned in 1948, when asked at a press interview before leaving Germany whether there was any truth in the German allegations concerning mock trials, replied, "Yes, of course. We couldn't have made those birds talk otherwise. It was a trick and it worked like a charm."
Colonel A.H. Rosenfeld, who was Chief of the Dachau branch of the U.S. War Crimes Administration until he resigned in 1948, when asked at a press interview before leaving Germany whether there was any truth in the German allegations concerning mock trials, replied, "Yes, of course. We couldn't have made those birds talk otherwise. It was a trick and it worked like a charm."
Stalin had the upper hand at Yalta because he knew that he could have defeated Hitler without the West, but the West couldn't have defeated Hitler without the USSR. The USSR death tolls were staggering, but they could afford it.
It'll be the same with the Chinese if it ever comes to that, they can afford to throw bodies at us.
It'll be the same with the Chinese if it ever comes to that, they can afford to throw bodies at us.
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Spartacus
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Germany did a good enough jobMr. dB said:
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Spartacus
Guest
When the case came to the attention of Secretary of the Army Kenneth C. Royall, he ordered a stay of execution for the 12 men who were scheduled to be hanged in just a few days, and then directed General Lucius D. Clay, the highest authority of the American occupation in Germany to investigate Everett's charges against the prosecution. Not satisfied with that, Royall then appointed a three-man commission, headed by Judge Gordon Simpson of the Texas Supreme Court, to investigate not only the Malmedy Massacre case, but other Dachau proceedings, which had involved the same Jewish interrogators. The other two members of the commission were Judge Edward L. Van Roden and Lt. Col. Charles Lawrence, Jr.
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Spartacus
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After a six-week investigation conducted from an office which they set up in Munich, the Simpson Commission made its recommendation to Royall. The Commission had looked at 65 mass trials of German war criminals in which 139 death sentences had been handed down. By that time, 152 German war criminals tried at Dachau had already been executed. The 139 men who were still awaiting execution were staff members of the Dachau concentration camp, SS soldiers accused of shooting POWs at Malmedy and German civilians accused of killing Allied pilots who were shot down on bombing missions over Germany. On January 6, 1949, they recommended that 29 of these death sentences, including the 12 death sentences in the Malmedy Massacre case, be commuted to life in prison.
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Spartacus
Guest
jewish witch hunt
Phenom78
New member
Mr. dB said:
Hitler was defeated with or without Stalin at that point.
Churchill had pushed for a Baltic invasion, and as it turned out the military situation in Italy at the end argued in favor of it as well (a view shared by the top US General in Italy at the time)
The only thing preventing it was Stalin's desire not to have terrirotry he desired occupied by US and British forces. Churchil saw it. FDR was more worried about British Imperialism lol
Fucking moron.
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Spartacus
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Hitler's goal(s) were defeated by a particulariy strong "russian" winterPhenom78 said:
his soldiers reached the outskirts of the kremlin despite being outnumbered and the soviets having more and better tanks(KV's and T-34's)
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Spartacus
Guest
big deal
I wouldn't want to be associated with the extermination of so many lives
I wouldn't want to be associated with the extermination of so many lives
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Spartacus
Guest
good pointPhenom78 said:
losing almost 6 weeks of clear offensive weather
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