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Steroid Rank--att. Majutsu

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escher

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If anyone knows of a site or source that ranks steroids according to their anabolic:androgenic ratio, I would love to see it in a thread. For example, test is the basis for these calculations and specs out at 100:100 anabolic-to-androgenic, equal on both grounds, and test is THE home plate for these calcs because chemically it is the base hormone from which ALL other AAS are derived. Agreed?

Ranking test at 100:100 would be like stating one's IQ, where 100 is the mean and IQs <100 are considered less than average (or sub-par), and IQs >100 are considered to be superior. Are we in agreement so far? Hell, if you can still follow my point here, you deserve a pat on the back. Communications were never my strong suit.

To make one final elaboration, if tren were 5 times stronger than test on both counts (I have heard a few people state this claim), then the A-A ratio would simply be 500:500--very strong stuff. This has me VERY curious about popular bulking agents like Deca, Dianabol, and Anadrol. Knowing Deca is considered to be a "mild anabolic" with a small degree of androgenic activity essentially tells us nothing, as it is almost an opinion. Rank it more specifically, at say, 55:21. This tells me that it is half as anabolic as test, with a low but ever-present androgen content. Much more practical, no?

My point here is that we need a more superior way to rate our steroids, almost like a different language to classify them simply but specifically, as in the case of an A-A statistic.

I am NOT trying to BS anyone here. I really am interested in this subject. Why else would I have just pissed away fifteen minutes jabbering about it? Your input, as always, is appreciated. Even the flamers. Bring it.

-e
 
Your an idiot!!!!






































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I'm going to look into this, my interest has really been spiked.
 
The A/A (Androgenic/Anabolic ratio) thing was done in the 30s in Germany. This is from an old meso article:
"For you to fully appreciate the things I am going to discuss in this article you have to have a background on how anabolic steroids are screened for activity. As you know, anabolic steroids are derivatives of testosterone which share two types of activity – muscle building (deemed anabolic) and non muscle male sex hormone related activity (deemed androgenic).

The goal of researchers in the golden age of anabolic steroid research (1935-1965) was to synthesize a compound which retained a high degree of anabolic activity coupled with a vastly diminished androgenic activity. This property was quantified using what is known as the Anabolic / Androgenic ratio (A/A ratio). The goal was not so much to produce a compound that was strongly anabolic, but rather the goal was to produce a compound with the highest possible A/A ratio. You must understand that the market for anabolic steroids was not bodybuilders / athletes but geriatric patients, patients recovering from surgery or injury, or those suffering from weakness or catabolism secondary to some other disease. These can include men and women, and even children. It was therefore paramount to avoid any virilizing effects when providing such people anabolic treatment, and so an anabolic agent with a very low A/A ratio was needed.

To determine the A/A ratio, scientists utilized a test called the Rat Levator Ani Assay. In this test, scientists use two groups of castrated rats. The rats are castrated to remove any interfering influence from fluctuating natural androgen levels. The first group of rats are a control group that receives a placebo, while the second group receives the steroid (either by injection or orally). After a period of time (several days to weeks) the rats are sacrificed. Researchers then isolate three organs from each of the rats – the seminal vesicles, ventral prostate, and levator ani muscle. These organs are all weighed and a comparison of the active group to the placebo groups is made. The differences in weights for the seminal vesicles and ventral prostate represent androgenic activity, while the difference in the weight of the levator ani muscles in the control and active group represent anabolic activity.

To give a landmark against which to gauge the relative activities of each steroid in this assay, a standard is used in some of the rats in the active group. This standard is usually testosterone, testosterone propionate, or 17alpha-methyltestosterone (MT) and the results obtained from the rats given this standard are designated an arbitrary number of 1 for anabolic activity and 1 for androgenic activity. Therefore these standard androgens are said to have an A/A ratio of 1."

A/A ratios are listed on the meso profiles.

Interestingly, later research showed that the drug ester affected the A/A ratio.

"The ester bond is fairly easily broken under the right conditions. If the molecule is dissolved in water, this can occur by a simple chemical reaction, yielding the parent drug and a carboxylic acid. For example, if the steroid used is testosterone propionate, testosterone and propionic acid are released. Carboxylic acids are safe and natural in the body in reasonable amounts. It should not be thought that these are strong acids because they are not: they are acids in the same sense that, e.g., Vitamin C or lactic acid are acids. Furthermore, the amount of carboxylic acid present at any time is extremely low.

The carboxylic acids do not have any activities of interest. Once the ester group is removed, it has done its job, and the parent drug acts in its normal manner.

Besides the simple chemical hydrolysis described above, the esters can be removed by enzymes in the blood called esterases, though water still is required for the reaction. The great majority of hydrolysis occurs with the help of these enzymes or by non-specific reactions with proteins. These reaction cannot take place while the esterified steroid is dissolved in fat. Thus, while the esterified steroids are dissolved in fat, they are protected from hydrolyis, and thus serve as a depot for the drug, giving extended duration of action.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is the significance of the partition coefficient?

Differences in partition coefficient seem to account almost fully for the differences between various esters of anabolic steroids, as shown by Chaudry and James.1,2 To understand their work, though, it is necessary first to consider the methods they used to obtain their data on the anabolic and androgenic effects of the drugs tested.

These scientists are not using those terms in the manner which many bodybuilding authors do. The anabolic effect is measured by increase in weight of the levator ani muscle in the rat, and the androgenic effect is measured by increase in weight of the seminal vesicles and prostate. These measurements are neither perfectly indicative of muscle-building value to bodybuilders nor to any particular undesired side effect except perhaps prostate enlargement. Despite the limitations of the method, this was the assay method available.

A number of esters of nandrolone were studied, using various single doses, but only the results from a single dose of 1 mg are given here. The results are as follows:

Parent Drug

Ester

# of Carbons

Anabolic Effect

Anabolic / Androgenic Ratio PRC** (P) x10-3
Nandrolone formate 1 1176 13:1 15*
acetate 2 1594 11:1 25*
propionate 3 1880 10:1 41*
butyrate 4 1488 7:1 69
valerate 5 2526 9:1 115*
hexanoate 6 3731 9:1 192
heptanoate 7 6559 13:1 269
octanoate 8 5557 15:1 611
nonanoate 9 5080 19:1 455
decanoate 10 7735 25:1 802
undecanoate 11 6576 32:1 1460 "

In short the longer ester had higher A/A ratios. This goes against common sense, showing that A/A ratios are not so useful. God only knows what they are measuring.

In short, we now know that anabolic activity is caused by differences in activity at the androgen receptor (AR) in muscle. Androgenic activity is caused by increasing activity, directly or indirectly, on the androgen receptor (AR) in sexual tissues. There is no mystery here. Its mostly a matter of metabolism when strong drugs like deca aren't too androgenic, and otherwise, strong AR agonists like tren and very androgenic and anabolic.

There's no sense confusing things with outdated myths.
 
Leave it to Majutsu to make my neurons fire a little harder... :worried:

I understand though. Well, I followed everything in your post (be it your words or the excerpts from the meso articles), but I'm still disappointed with the answer. Wish things could be simpler--our steroid classifications, I mean.

As for Majutsu, you have always put A LOT into your posts, and for that I applaud you. Always clean and informative, no less. In short, thank you for the input.

-e
 
You don't beat a jujitsu man to the punch, you just wonder how you ended up on the ground with legs around your neck. . . (BRR should like that one!)

j/k good thread and question.

The main problem is that medical research doesn't ask the questions bodybuilders want answered. Not even close. This is why the subjective experience of bodybuilders, the "living laboratory" of bodybuilding, is more important than some scraps of book learning. In fact, only after learning myself from many, many bodybuilders in person and online how these drugs actually work could I begin to apply any book knowledge to AAS and actually make a very small return contribution.
 
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