squats & leg press question

[muskles]

my boyfriend and i were reading a bb magazine last night (MD), and it had an article about form on squats and leg press. for squats it said that you'll mess up your knees if you you're knees go past your feet (no more than quads parallel to floor) and in leg press the knees shouldn't come all the way to the chest. this is contradictory to how my bf taught me and what i've read on this board. i'm also thinking that it would put more pressure on your knees the way they suggest in the mag. your thoughts?

 

[alexiarenee]

I have never read anywhere that your knees go past your feet!

 

[alexiarenee]

I do squats with a wide, slightly wider than shoulder width, toes pointed out stance... Depending on the weight, I try to go past parallel to where my tush touches my calves (which IS just past parallel for this bubble butt)

Whoa! Your butt touches your calves??

 

[Sassy69]

I generally try to keep my squats to parallel w/ the ground and knees directly above my feet / shoulder width apart. I can do deep squats w/ lighter weights and I feel it more in my ass, but with higher weights I definitely feel the stress on my knees. If that's where u want to go w/ your squats I would recommend at least a belt and maybe knee wraps. The only caveat w/ the knee wraps is that you find that you can do more things with them, so you have to pay attention when you don't use them. I used to wrap all the time and I got to the point where I really couldn't squat without them. I don't know if it was a mental dependence as well. I stopped using wraps about 5 years ago, but now that I"m going towards heavier weight I need to consider them. At least keep a belt w/ me!

Generally the good rule of thumb is keep disciplined form and if it hurts, dont' do it!

 

[muskles]

i think the article mentioned probems with knees in the long term.. i will have to look at it again tonight to see exactly what it said. last week i lifted super heavy for me and could only get my quads parallel to the ground or i would have fallen down. this week i went lighter and i could get a few more reps while getting tush to calves... not sure which way is better. oh, and my stance is feet slightly wider than shoulders.

oh, another question :: what is the benefit of doing squats with narrow stance and wide stance?

 

[wilson6]

"I have never read anywhere that your knees go past your feet!"

They are talking about the knees coming over the toes. If you squat with your hips back, that won't happen. A narrow stance will cause that as well. Forget the wraps unless you're powerlifter. They increase pressure on the patella. I used to use them and started having all kinds of knee problems. I squat more without them now and have far less "patella wear" related problems.

Knees to 90 degrees on leg press or just before your lower back begins to roll off the back support pad, which will be pretty close to 90. Feet fairly high and wide on the platform. Same issue, don't want the knees coming over the toes.

W6

 

[SteelWeaver]

When talking about 90 degrees, and "parallel", does one mean there is 90 degree angle between the hamstring and calf?

And does one mean the top of the quad or the bottom of the quad (hamstring) is parallel to the ground? If it's the top, then that's practically a full, deep squat.

 

[wilson6]

You'll like our Nebula SPAT.

W6

 

[SteelWeaver]

No no, top part of quad is not parallel to bottom part of quad - the thigh is thicker at the top than near the knee. Go look at the negative space around your leg the next time you do a parallel squat. When the hamstring is parallel to the floor, the line from the knee to the hip flexor along the top of the thigh is at an angle - about 30 degrees maybe. You'd have to go at least 2 or 3 inches deeper to get that line parallel to the floor, thus almost a full squat.

That's why I'm asking - because then technically you, well, one, would be calling a deep squat a parallel squat.

I believe you, OK! (But what's "it"?)

What'd Hannibal do?

 

[Hannibal]

What'd Hannibal do?

I didnt do anything

Actually I have been helpin Spats with squat form. That and tryin to talk her into switchin over to the darkside of powerlifting. There are alot of STRONG women on this board. That could be succesful if they switched...and still be RIPPED. So I take it as a challenge to try to convert some

I mean PG, Spats, and TV...are some of the many women here that can handle 3 Wheels + on the squat. I can just imagine what they could do with powerlifting equipment.

For those that are curious....

ELITE POWERLIFITING TOTAL (Squat,Bench, Deadlift)

WEIGHT CLASS..............ELITE WOMENS TOTAL
123................................782
132................................827
148................................909
165................................981
181...(MOO!).................1053

For those of you ladies that think you have to be fat to be a powerlifter. Check out Amy Weisberger....pound for pound strongest women in history. And you can see her abs from across the room. Just something for you ladies, that like to make the "weight your bitches", to think about.

http://www.powermagonline.com/latest-news/weisberger.htm

 

[Realgains]

To be perfectly honest with you what you read is crap. Squats will never screw up one kness, unless you bounce at the bottom and or raise the heels up on a low block. NEVER raise the heels up as this puts much stress on the knee. Learn to squat with a flat foot. This will work the entire thigh very hard.....get the flexibility in the calves and you should be able to do it. Most of the time one needs to squat until the TOPS of your thighs are at parallel or very slightly lower ,and leg press as deap as your lower back can take.

(there is a place with the advanced trainee for partial squats, AT TIMES)

Problem is some people do not have the needed flexibility in the ankles and or have very long legs in compaired to torso and these can prevent good squating form. These people lean too far forward and hurt their backs. Some people can never squat safely even with flexibility work(Few though) Also, some leg press machine will kill the lower back if you go deep....use the Hammer Strength leg prees if you can as it is a great one.

Injury almost never come to the knees with squats and leg presses.....injuries are almost always in the lower back.

The very best squaters go quite low and the best squater I ever saw went ALL the way down much of the time(Tom Platz)

If you do not go fairly deep you will not develope the quads, hams AND glutes much.

Hope this helps.

 

[Hannibal]

Injury almost never come to the knees with squats and leg presses.....injuries are almost always in the lower back.

That is why you MUST train the abs and lower back. And learn to use your abs when you squat to support your lower back.

If your lower back hurts from squatting....STRENGTHEN IT!

 

[Realgains]

I agree BUT there are some very rare individuals that do not have the body for squatting....my wife for one. We tried for years and we tried it all...abb work, flexibilty , different stances. She has very long legs and a short torso and always leaned over way too much as a result.

Most people can learn to squat though.

 

[Gladiola]

Regarding Knee injury:
It might be worthwhile to keep in mind that women are relatively more at-risk for knee injuries than men. Something to do with the wider hips & the resulting connection of bones in the knee... maybe other factors too (can't recall it all).

Wider vs. Narrower stance???
---I think the wider stance recruits more from the glute & perhaps even addudctor group (if you're wide like a plie). Anyone?

In group exercise, we teach knees don't go past 90degrees... but then again we are forced to work with motor morons mixed in with athletic types. Ugh some of the form I see...

I wanted to read what the general fitness industry is stating,
http://www.acsm.org/pdf/SQUAT.pdf American College of Sports Medicine
"The value of deep squats for improving atheltic performance continues to be a debated topic. In general, if the athlete is required to perform from a deep squat position, the athlete should gradually progress to the deep squat position."
----i.e. it's not necessarily a No-No.

Injury is definitely possible if someone loses control (too much weight, too fatigued, etc.) & doesn't have a spotter!

I agree with Sassy's statement, Keep proper form first & foremost & don't do anything that's painful to the joint.

 

[Realgains]

Well ,I have been squatting for over 20 years and I have taught many ladies to squat properly...In my opinion the female knee is stronger than the male knee and not weaker. Men have way more knee problems due to the types of sports they often play.

I have never seen anyone injure a knee from deep squatting WITHOUT a bounce. People get in the rack and start to squat not knowing shit. Most people will either do a half squat, which does dick, unless you have a huge amount of weight on your back and know what the hell you are doing, or they go deep and bounce at the bottom while leaning too far forward!

Generally speaking Men have long torso's and short legs and women are the other way around. Long legs and short torso = leaning forward more in the squat and that = back strain and NOT knee stain. Going very low in the squat, and I am talking about lower than tops of thighs parallel to ground, can be tough on the lower back for all but the very best of squatters. I actually do not recommend this for most people. That said....most people do not go deep enough in the squat. Top of the thighs parallel to the ground is pretty deep.

A wide stance does help if you have longish legs for sure, but then again we are talking about lower back and not the knees.
I have seen MANY people injure their knees doing hack squats( which are FAR inferior to squats) and regular squats with the heels elevated. If you can't stay upright enough flat footed then I think it is better NOT to squat at all. Good substitutions would be the "Tru Squat" Machine, Hammer leg press, and SOME other leg press machines that are easy on the low back.

It is extremely important that one goes fairly deep with all leg press machines too or little development will result.

Forget about the Lunges ladies....the regular back squat will do FAR more for the but, hams and quads, not to mention the adductors and abductors, lower back and abbs. If you just want tone then do high reps and not to failure.

By the way the French pro cycling team, and many other cyclists, do squats to strengthen the KNEE, and not just the bulk of the thigh.

 

[Gladiola]

"In my opinion the female knee is stronger than the male knee and not weaker. Men have way more knee problems due to the types of sports they often play."

I didn't actually mean women were more likely to injure their knee squatting, I meant in general.

"Female athletes injure the ACL at a rate six times higher than men, according to National Collegiate Athletic Association data. "
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketba/wnba/fs06.htm
"Men and women have significantly different skeletal structures in their legs, making women much more likely than men to experience sports-related knee injuries, according to a new University of Florida study. That type of injury [ACL] is three to four times more common in female athletes than in male athletes, according to Randy Dick, the senior assistant director of health and safety for the National Collegiate Athletic Association."
http://www.napa.ufl.edu/99news/acl.htm

If my name were Randy Dick... I think I'd go by Randall

Personally, I'm quite scared of an ACL tear & refuse to try skiing b/c of it. Call it intuition.. just this bad feeling. Love rollerblading tho!

 

[Realgains]

I was referring to knee injuries that cause knee weakness in men, and not the actual strength of the joint itself. Men have a way higher incidence of knee injury..believe me... I have worked on many more male knees in the operating room than female knees.
In reality the average female knee is stronger than the average male knee because of this fact. Also, men have a much higher rate of meniscal degeneration than women.

Is his guy you quote a sports Orthopod...NOPE! He only tells have the story.

Yes, that is correct the female knees is more prone to ACL injury and that happens from traumatic quick shearing forces and NOT with proper squatting..


The reason ACL is susceptible with ladies is simple....men have more muscle mass around the knee joint , especially the very important vastus medialus, which keeps the knee tight. The structure of the knee is the same with men and women. Women simply have a "looser knee" with less muscle to keep the femur and Tibia from shearing away with a fast forcing and explosive movement.

What is the best way to develop these all important muscles that stabilize the Knee??? SQUAT SQUAT and SQUAT again!
The chance of getting an ACL injury is almost nill. You have a far higher chance of injuring your ACL going for a nature walk.

 

[muskles]

It's kind of hard to picture all the angles described, but I take it all to mean...

1. deep squatting is the way to go.
2. don't lean too far forward.
3. don't bounce.
4. use a spotter.

did i miss anything?

Thanks for all the great info!

 

[Realgains]

Ya

Only wear a belt, except on all out sets
Don't wear knee wraps unless you are doing HEAVY HEAVY triples or less
Train the abbs hard
Never raise the heels
Get supple in the hips and lower legs/ankles
ALSO...
Don't need a spotter if you have safety racks or a power rack
Forget about lunges, they are a waste of time and energy
Don't wimp out and choose the leg press and leg extensions only...squats are better for almost everyone

 

[Realgains]

I am the worlds poorest typer!...
NEVER wear a belt, except on all out sets

 

[Gladiola]

Get supple in the hips and lower legs/ankles

Indeed... the forgotten element of **flexibility**!!! Actually one of the components of overall fitness & definitely important.

You mentioned calf flexibility - I was amazed how my calf flexibility increased when I started wearing high heels only rarely in addition to doing yoga 1X per week. Such a shame, cuz they look so good!