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Soya Milk
- Thread starter PANTS
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diamonddiceclay
New member
soy is bad for men because it raises estrogen
Ignore Diamond...I'm 100% certain he is someone's pet parrot that has somehow learned how to type, and he just repeats the same misinformation over and over again.
Soy milk is fine, but make sure it's real soy milk, and not that processed crap that's got flavorings, emulsifiers, etc... added to it. Sweetened seems a particularly bad idea IMHO. If you want to test whether or not dairy is affecting your complexion, why not just drop milk for a while (soy, cow, or otherwise)? You can always add protein into your diet in other ways.
Soy milk is fine, but make sure it's real soy milk, and not that processed crap that's got flavorings, emulsifiers, etc... added to it. Sweetened seems a particularly bad idea IMHO. If you want to test whether or not dairy is affecting your complexion, why not just drop milk for a while (soy, cow, or otherwise)? You can always add protein into your diet in other ways.
diamonddiceclay
New member
WHO ARE YOU TO TELL SOMEONE NOT TO LISTEN TO ME?MS said:
Diamond, I say that because all you ever seem to do is read T-mag and quote their misinformation on soy which is based on sensationalist journalism gleaned from decades old experiments in rats, cheetahs and cell lines so that folks will buy their whey-based protein supps. If you read current research ON HUMANS (including males), you would learn that you're spouting pure garbage, therefore I tell people to ignore your uninformed and bad advice. If you gave informed advice, it would be a different matter. Soy proteins appears to have ANTI estrogenic properties in humans. Strange but true that once again, we're not like rats.
diamonddiceclay
New member
tell that to well respected personal trainer carlobuzzichelli.com who trained me and told me soy raises estrogen-I guess he's a moron tooMS said:
I'm not calling anyone a moron. I'm just pointing out that that rumor/belief is outdated based on studies done in humans. There is no doubt that soy is estrogenic in male rats, and this is a large part of where the belief that is is estrogenic in human males came from. So your trainers info was merely out of date. This should be a cutting edge diet discussion board, not your ordinary rumor mill.
It wasn't that long ago top trainers were (and many still are) telling folks that ketogenic diets are bad for you, don't work, or will ruin your kidneys. It doesn't make them morons, they're just not up with the play.........
It wasn't that long ago top trainers were (and many still are) telling folks that ketogenic diets are bad for you, don't work, or will ruin your kidneys. It doesn't make them morons, they're just not up with the play.........
Pants, just so you know, I have had bad skin in my life and was on Accutane about 10 years ago. According to alot of dermatologists, milk and dairy and "greasy foods" have nothing to do with acne. You can probably check that out on other sites. Others can feel free to disagree, but I think that's an old wive's tale.
I agree with ya Bill W. I think dairy is blamed for a lot of stuff that's unfair and not true (just like soy). That's why I recommend milk is dropped (cow, soy or otherwise) until we see the results. Bodybuilding myth number 200030400409865......dairy inhibits fat loss! LOL
Diamond, you prolly feel like I'm picking on ya, and to a certain extent your right!! Ever since (seems a long time ago) you've been posting "soy is bad for men because it raises estrogen" as if it's an undisputable fact, I've been following it up with a more balanced and rational post (in my opinion). It's just that you don't usuaslly check back on the posts that you spam with that statement, so you've never noticed before that I've disagreed. This means you've never read or heard any info that disputes it. I would have no problem at all if you said "soy has been shown to be estrogenic in male rats, and it's unkown yet if this is true in humans". Or if you had even stated that my trainer told me that "soy is bad for men because it raises estrogen". But you continue to state it over and over again as if it's carved in stone and proven beyond all doubt "soy is bad for men because it raises estrogen".
This statement is wholly untrue when gauged by current research and knowledge on humans. If soy protein has any measureable effect at all on humans, it's probably as an anti-estrogen. No bodybuilding male or female should dismiss this protein lightly without looking into the whole story (including anti nutrients etc...). It reminds me a little of the anti-Aspartame lobby that has made almost all Americans paranoid of all sweeteners except table sugar which is undeniably bad for ya in large quantities.
Diamond, you prolly feel like I'm picking on ya, and to a certain extent your right!! Ever since (seems a long time ago) you've been posting "soy is bad for men because it raises estrogen" as if it's an undisputable fact, I've been following it up with a more balanced and rational post (in my opinion). It's just that you don't usuaslly check back on the posts that you spam with that statement, so you've never noticed before that I've disagreed. This means you've never read or heard any info that disputes it. I would have no problem at all if you said "soy has been shown to be estrogenic in male rats, and it's unkown yet if this is true in humans". Or if you had even stated that my trainer told me that "soy is bad for men because it raises estrogen". But you continue to state it over and over again as if it's carved in stone and proven beyond all doubt "soy is bad for men because it raises estrogen".
This statement is wholly untrue when gauged by current research and knowledge on humans. If soy protein has any measureable effect at all on humans, it's probably as an anti-estrogen. No bodybuilding male or female should dismiss this protein lightly without looking into the whole story (including anti nutrients etc...). It reminds me a little of the anti-Aspartame lobby that has made almost all Americans paranoid of all sweeteners except table sugar which is undeniably bad for ya in large quantities.
PANTS
New member
Well...its obvious you guys ain't lacking in the test department.
Chill would ya? We're talking about MILK here!
It's been 5 weeks now and I think I've seen improvements in my skin. My back still gets a few tho. I'm sure its the protein (whey).
The soya I'm taking is sweetened with Apple juice, so no worries there. It also Calcium fortified.
Bit concerned about the estrogen thing tho. Probably bull.... who
knows!
Chill would ya? We're talking about MILK here!
It's been 5 weeks now and I think I've seen improvements in my skin. My back still gets a few tho. I'm sure its the protein (whey).
The soya I'm taking is sweetened with Apple juice, so no worries there. It also Calcium fortified.
Bit concerned about the estrogen thing tho. Probably bull.... who
knows!
cardiosux!
New member
I was gonna post something about soymilk, but I forgot what it was. I am laughing too hard at MS and his parrot comment!!
Oh yeah, I love soymilk, especialy the choc kind. I like Silk brand the best. It is thick and kinda tastes like tose shake em's from when we were kids. I have a slight issue with lactose, a little is ok, in coffee or shredded chz, but a glass of soymilk is comparable in prot and cal, al ittle mor sugar but not ridiculous. I think it's a good substituion.
Still Laughing..............
Side hurts........
Oh yeah, I love soymilk, especialy the choc kind. I like Silk brand the best. It is thick and kinda tastes like tose shake em's from when we were kids. I have a slight issue with lactose, a little is ok, in coffee or shredded chz, but a glass of soymilk is comparable in prot and cal, al ittle mor sugar but not ridiculous. I think it's a good substituion.
Still Laughing..............
Side hurts........
Well, I just think it is kind of strange that adult humans suckle-up to a completely different species--I mean you never see lions drinking from a mother zebra. They just eat the zebra itself. I know that humans are much different from the rest of the animal kingdom, but I don't know if our digestive systems are really meant to handle a cow's milk. I wonder how the hell we got the idea to do it in the first place.
Since soy milk still has sugar, it is clearly not a great choice for someone watching their sugar, but in general, I think it is OK. Another benefit of soy is that it supposedly causes an increase in thyroid function, which may be of use for those trying to cut up. DISCLAIMER: I have only read this information, and am not trying to pass it on as indisputable fact
Since soy milk still has sugar, it is clearly not a great choice for someone watching their sugar, but in general, I think it is OK. Another benefit of soy is that it supposedly causes an increase in thyroid function, which may be of use for those trying to cut up. DISCLAIMER: I have only read this information, and am not trying to pass it on as indisputable fact
Island Son
New member
I remember reading a report about that recently. It's actually a mutated human gene which allowed people to digest cow's milk, so that we had another means of survival. Lactose-intolerant people have the original gene.skinnyfat said:
If can I find the link I'll post it.
Island Son
New member
http://www.ucla.edu/Templates/NewsItem3.html
Not the original story I read, but it has the same info
============================
Lactose Intolerance Gene Discovered
Date: January 14, 2002
Contact: Elaine Schmidt ([email protected])
310-794-2272
UCLA and Finnish researchers have identified a genetic mutation for lactose intolerance, a painful digestive condition that afflicts some 30 million to 50 million North Americans, 75 percent of African Americans and 90 percent of Asian Americans. The findings are reported in the Jan. 14 issue of Nature Genetics.
Dr. Leena Peltonen, UCLA's Gordon and Virginia MacDonald Distinguished Chair in Human Genetics, and her associates at the UCLA School of Medicine, collaborated with colleagues at Finland's National Public Health Institute to identify a DNA variant outside of the gene associated with lactose intolerance.
Lactose intolerance occurs in children after weaning, when the cells that line the small intestine decrease their production of an enzyme called lactase-phlorizin. For years, scientists' analyses of the human gene that encodes this enzyme revealed no mutation associated with the disorder. As a result, Peltonen's team looked for a DNA variant outside of the encoding gene.
The researchers drew blood samples in order to study the DNA of a Finnish group of 196 lactose-intolerant adults of African, Asian and European descent. Each of them showed the genetic mutation for lactose intolerance in their DNA.
"That we found the same DNA variant in all lactose-intolerant people across distant ethnic groups indicates to us that it is very old," Peltonen said. "We believe that the variant we identified in patients is the original form of the gene — which mutated to tolerate milk products when early humans adopted dairy farming.
"This suggests that everyone was originally lactose intolerant," she added. "It's an excellent example of a useful mutation in human history."
Lactose intolerance is the inability to digest large amounts of lactose — the main sugar found in dairy products. Symptoms include nausea, cramps, bloating, gas and diarrhea, which begin about 30 minutes to 2 hours after consuming foods containing lactose.
Current tests for lactose intolerance are unreliable or tedious. Peltonen and her colleagues' findings will help speed the development of non-invasive, reliable diagnostic tests and better treatment for this common problem.
-UCLA-
ES023
Not the original story I read, but it has the same info
============================
Lactose Intolerance Gene Discovered
Date: January 14, 2002
Contact: Elaine Schmidt ([email protected])
310-794-2272
UCLA and Finnish researchers have identified a genetic mutation for lactose intolerance, a painful digestive condition that afflicts some 30 million to 50 million North Americans, 75 percent of African Americans and 90 percent of Asian Americans. The findings are reported in the Jan. 14 issue of Nature Genetics.
Dr. Leena Peltonen, UCLA's Gordon and Virginia MacDonald Distinguished Chair in Human Genetics, and her associates at the UCLA School of Medicine, collaborated with colleagues at Finland's National Public Health Institute to identify a DNA variant outside of the gene associated with lactose intolerance.
Lactose intolerance occurs in children after weaning, when the cells that line the small intestine decrease their production of an enzyme called lactase-phlorizin. For years, scientists' analyses of the human gene that encodes this enzyme revealed no mutation associated with the disorder. As a result, Peltonen's team looked for a DNA variant outside of the encoding gene.
The researchers drew blood samples in order to study the DNA of a Finnish group of 196 lactose-intolerant adults of African, Asian and European descent. Each of them showed the genetic mutation for lactose intolerance in their DNA.
"That we found the same DNA variant in all lactose-intolerant people across distant ethnic groups indicates to us that it is very old," Peltonen said. "We believe that the variant we identified in patients is the original form of the gene — which mutated to tolerate milk products when early humans adopted dairy farming.
"This suggests that everyone was originally lactose intolerant," she added. "It's an excellent example of a useful mutation in human history."
Lactose intolerance is the inability to digest large amounts of lactose — the main sugar found in dairy products. Symptoms include nausea, cramps, bloating, gas and diarrhea, which begin about 30 minutes to 2 hours after consuming foods containing lactose.
Current tests for lactose intolerance are unreliable or tedious. Peltonen and her colleagues' findings will help speed the development of non-invasive, reliable diagnostic tests and better treatment for this common problem.
-UCLA-
ES023
cardiosux!
New member
Is SOYA a brand of soy milk, like Silk or 8th Continent, or is it a different type of soymilk?
Just curious...
Still laughing.....
Polly...
I've fallen and I ....
Just curious...
Still laughing.....
Polly...
I've fallen and I ....
Whether or not dairy is 'natural' for humans to consume is a different issue to whether or not it's "healthy". There are unnatural foods that can be healthy.
The dairy question is a very interesting one, especially in the light of more recent research that indicates dairy products may be insulogenic, and may also increase insulin resistance (or possibly both). It will be interesting to see how this story unfolds, since, for instance, if whey increases insulin resistance AND insulin production, this may appear as an insulin "spike" in your post workout meal, but in fact it may have the opposite effect to what you're trying to achieve. Remember, insulin resistance means less glucose taken up by muscle cells even in the presence of high insulin levels.
As far as lactose probs, you can get lactose free dairy products, or take the lactase enzyme. Most good quality whey proteins are very low in lactose. Cottage cheese is also pretty low.
The dairy question is a very interesting one, especially in the light of more recent research that indicates dairy products may be insulogenic, and may also increase insulin resistance (or possibly both). It will be interesting to see how this story unfolds, since, for instance, if whey increases insulin resistance AND insulin production, this may appear as an insulin "spike" in your post workout meal, but in fact it may have the opposite effect to what you're trying to achieve. Remember, insulin resistance means less glucose taken up by muscle cells even in the presence of high insulin levels.
As far as lactose probs, you can get lactose free dairy products, or take the lactase enzyme. Most good quality whey proteins are very low in lactose. Cottage cheese is also pretty low.
its probably been bandied about before but its worth a read
http://www.testosterone.net/articles/185soy.html
in short
-------------
Conclusions
At this time it's recommended that:
• Infants not be given soy-based formula until more research is done on safety in regard to neonatal sexual development and its effects on thyroid suppression.
• Men not use soy products until more research is done on its effects on Testosterone and testicular function.
• Weight-training individuals who hope for increased muscle hypertrophy not use soy protein until more research is done on effects of decreased Testosterone, increased cortisol levels and muscle protein breakdown.
http://www.testosterone.net/articles/185soy.html
in short
-------------
Conclusions
At this time it's recommended that:
• Infants not be given soy-based formula until more research is done on safety in regard to neonatal sexual development and its effects on thyroid suppression.
• Men not use soy products until more research is done on its effects on Testosterone and testicular function.
• Weight-training individuals who hope for increased muscle hypertrophy not use soy protein until more research is done on effects of decreased Testosterone, increased cortisol levels and muscle protein breakdown.
Yup GR8SCOT, it's beened dragged up numerous times. Here's an old thread addressing those T-mag articles, and more, for people that really want to read both sides of the story:
http://209.11.101.244/forum/showthread.php?threadid=87333&highlight=soy
or a longer thread
http://209.11.101.244/forum/showthread.php?threadid=65913&highlight=soy+infants
but covers a lot of territory. I've also got lots of references on soy in HUMAN studies... if anyone is interested just email me.
PANTS, it seems to me that if you don't have a cow's milk allergy then it's cheaper and easier to drink that. Or soy AND cow milk if you like variety.
http://209.11.101.244/forum/showthread.php?threadid=87333&highlight=soy
or a longer thread
http://209.11.101.244/forum/showthread.php?threadid=65913&highlight=soy+infants
but covers a lot of territory. I've also got lots of references on soy in HUMAN studies... if anyone is interested just email me.
PANTS, it seems to me that if you don't have a cow's milk allergy then it's cheaper and easier to drink that. Or soy AND cow milk if you like variety.
Last edited:
PANTS
New member
Its been a good 5-6 weeks off milk and my testes haven't shrunk and I've been making some awesome gains.
I can't quite explain it, but I do feel better inside. Less bloated maybe. Maybe leaner. Dunno.
I'll keep going on the soy milk for a while, then switch back to milk for 5-6 weeks. That should tell me which is the one for me. Hey all in the name of Science eh?
One last question. By having Whey protein in my diet, have I been failing to omit dairy from my diet all together? As in, isn't derived from milk?
Thanx. P
I can't quite explain it, but I do feel better inside. Less bloated maybe. Maybe leaner. Dunno.
I'll keep going on the soy milk for a while, then switch back to milk for 5-6 weeks. That should tell me which is the one for me. Hey all in the name of Science eh?
One last question. By having Whey protein in my diet, have I been failing to omit dairy from my diet all together? As in, isn't derived from milk?
Thanx. P
Whey proteins are milk proteins (lactoserum), and as caseinates, they are also extensively studied, owing to their
excellent nutritional value and their numerous
functional properties, which are important for the
formation of edible WPC are concentrated whey
(ca. 70% proteins), whilst WPI are whey isolate (ca.
90% proteins).
Chen, H. Functional properties and applications
of edible films made of milk proteins.
J. Dairy Sci. 1995 78, 2563-2583.
excellent nutritional value and their numerous
functional properties, which are important for the
formation of edible WPC are concentrated whey
(ca. 70% proteins), whilst WPI are whey isolate (ca.
90% proteins).
Chen, H. Functional properties and applications
of edible films made of milk proteins.
J. Dairy Sci. 1995 78, 2563-2583.
