Size does matter...

[Pityocamptes]

I was just wondering what type of growth can ultimately be expected if one stays "clean" with supps. and diet. I've seen pics. of those who use "gear" (and it is amazing) but just wanted some feedback on what can be expected from those who have never used "gear" and have stayed "clean". Just want an idea of what the human body is capable of. Thanks.

 

[Exodus]

it is capable of the same thing i honestly believe

but it is so hard that humans do not want to have to suffer and sacrfice to get it..... so people will use gear.... i guess its an easy way out...... thats just what we all want...... the results in less time with not as much hard work

 

[adepss]

look at the pics of Steve Reeves and you'll get an idea of what can be accomplished and retained naturally.

look at the pics of gear users after retirement and tons of health complications and you'll see how burnt out and weak you can become by 50!

Roids don't build bodies Roids wreck bodies![/QUOTE]

 

[Y_lifter]

I have never used AS but looked into it, and decided to go the HARDER road... Clean.
Using Gear is NOT a magical potion that will pack on Muscle while you sit on the Couch on your Ass eating Cheetos.
The Gear user's on this board will tell you it takes lots of hard work to get big, even with AS.
You will recover faster from your workouts and be able to up the intensity using gear, versus the AVERAGE lifter.

To answer your question:
Of course, clean or gear, how much you grow will depend on genetics, diet and commitment as to whether you are a HardGainer or Pack it on just by walking into the Gym.

Good gains can be made clean. It just takes longer and is harder for the Average lifter...

 

[adepss]

exactly if you go and stay clean you'll take longer to get results BUT your results in terms of mass and strength will be almostr permanent.

If you go with As its an easier road to mass but once off it your gains in strength and mass will significantly decrease plus your definitely wreaking havoc on your bodies natural hormone secretion ability.

 

[doggmann]

Good gains can definitely be made without AS. However, the non-AS user will never get as big and ripped as the gear user, all other factors (rest, diet, training) being equal. Sad, perhaps, but true...The non-AS user will find diminishing returns with age, due to lower test levels...Also, gear users don't always lose significant mass when off...Those who maintain proper diet and training and take the proper supps to get their natural production on line again lose very little...Finally, are you really clean if you are taking pro-hormones, ECA, insulin mimickers, etc...I think guys should do what they're comfortable doing and not pass judgement on those who choose another road, whichever road that is.....

 

[adepss]

okay that debate could rage on I'm not passing judgemenmt on gear users its their choice yes maybe but along with it comes the fact that if caught using roids you'll likely get a criminal record for drug possession, depending on where you reside and as far as dimi ishing test levels I think its been proven that gear users have the lowest levels of natural test as they age and sometimes production is stopped all together-but as you say each to their own as long as they've weighed up the cons as well as the pros , and are'nt carried away by the hype.

 

[dude]

There is a book titled "The Adonis Complex" and they actually have a formula that pretty much determines the genetic limit and Steve Reeves was at the upper end of how much muscle you can carry at that low of a bodyfat. If he would have gained bodyfat he could of also gained more LBM but there is only a certain amount of lean body mass you can hold onto at a certain bodyfat percentage. Of course, Steve Reeves was also very genetically gifted.

 

[adepss]

hmmm interesting I'll have to read that book once I locate a copy, of course the point is that seldom nowadays do people actually push hard enough to reach their full genetic potential.

often people opt for gear too early on and destroy what the possibilities of fully reaching their genetic limits would produce.

if people would train and supplement properly to the point of no further achievable gains, (and that does not mean being stuck on the often occuring plateau )

And then maybe opt for a cycle or two of gear I would probably belive that their extra gains at that point would be more likely to be longer lasting than the bodybuilder which uses gear too early on in their careers and stunts their bodies natural hormone levels.

thus once off gear incredible shrinkage of bodymass and strength occur.

this I am seeing more often at my clinic and it is a disturbing trend...