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Regarding Suicide and Selfishness

Silent Method

New member
This is taken from the now deleted thread. kane's responce is directed to those who offered positive words to Parabola.
KAYNE said:


YOU SIR, GET THE BIG PICTURE!!! SOMETHING 99% OF THE PEOPLE ON THIS THREAD DO NOT!!!



KAYNE
I find this ironic given what simple thought's you had expressed in this thread.

You want to know what I think of suicide? It's beyond a selfish cry for help. It's about the sickest goddamn thing you could do to other people. Suicide is worse than "an easy way out." It is one of the most evil things one could put your survivors through.

However, the ACT of suicide and the MOTIVATION for it are sperate. I do not pity the act of self killing. But I do have a sense of love for my fellow human beings which compels me to pity those who feel such despair that they contemplate suicide.

The threat of suicide is indeed selfish in nature. It is a cry for help. However, the act of belittling those who cry for help is beyond self centered. It is evil.
 
No, forcing people to be alive because it is convenient for you is selfish. Telling someone they can't kill themselves is no different than telling them that they can't move away. Its just as selfish as their decision, its just more socially appropriate. Its their body. Besides, 99% of people who talk about suicide don't do it.

My parents had a small dog, a terrier. It liked to run off and play in other people's yards. Sadly our yard couldn't work with a metal or wood fence, so we had to use an electrical fence to contain it, but that didn't work. Finally my dad gave up and chained it to a bush in front of the house. After a week it would just like there and stare at nothing. Luckily, after a few months of this my dad let it loose to play and it ran out in the street and was hit by a van. What is more selfish, wanting the dog to live a miserable life because it is convenient for you or wanting the dog to die and be out of its misery? I'm glad he died, but i'll never tell anyone in person as that would make me look bad.
 
That's a poor analogy Nord. The dog didn't run out on the street to kill himself.

I agree, suicide is a selfish cop-out.
 
Silent Method said:
This is taken from the now deleted thread. kane's responce is directed to those who offered positive words to Parabola.

I find this ironic given what simple thought's you had expressed in this thread.

You want to know what I think of suicide? It's beyond a selfish cry for help. It's about the sickest goddamn thing you could do to other people. Suicide is worse than "an easy way out." It is one of the most evil things one could put your survivors through.

However, the ACT of suicide and the MOTIVATION for it are sperate. I do not pity the act of self killing. But I do have a sense of love for my fellow human beings which compels me to pity those who feel such despair that they contemplate suicide.

The threat of suicide is indeed selfish in nature. It is a cry for help. However, the act of belittling those who cry for help is beyond self centered. It is evil. It is Kayne.
 
i actually agreee with nord on this one... it's selfish for you... it is also the reason we mourn when we lose the ones we love.
 
I think that most people who think about suicide
are so distressed;
their not even thinking about being selfish..

They are tired of being trouble for themselves and others.
 
Well, first off it's redundant to call any act especially selffish since every last thing living organisms do is selfish in one way or another, which is obvious but nevertheless relevant. If you don't kill yourself then you have reasons for not doing it as well. For instance, it may make you feel good to have others care for you, or you may enjoy certain things about life and wish to spend more time indulging in them, etc. And thus what Nordstrom said was correct as well. I have to say that people who call suicide victims selfish are complete and total assholes. Anyone who suffers from depression knows what kind of pain someone who has the balls to off themselves must be in and to ask a person in such pain to grin and bear it for the sake of not hurting your feelings is the MOST selfish thing I can possibly think of. It's right up there with torturing someone for your own amusement. Fuck it, it IS torturing someone for your own amusement.
 
Nathan said:
Well, first off it's redundant to call any act especially selffish since every last thing living organisms do is selfish in one way or another, which is obvious but nevertheless relevant. If you don't kill yourself then you have reasons for not doing it as well. For instance, it may make you feel good to have others care for you, or you may enjoy certain things about life and wish to spend more time indulging in them, etc. And thus what Nordstrom said was correct as well. I have to say that people who call suicide victims selfish are complete and total assholes. Anyone who suffers from depression knows what kind of pain someone who has the balls to off themselves must be in and to ask a person in such pain to grin and bear it for the sake of not hurting your feelings is the MOST selfish thing I can possibly think of. It's right up there with torturing someone for your own amusement. Fuck it, it IS torturing someone for your own amusement.



I take no stance on the subject but that is was well written.
 
I think suicide is the most noble way to die.It is not a cop-out,it is not a pussy way out,it requires tremendous strength.
As long as you don't leave any dependants(children etc.)it is your RIGHT to kill yourself when you deem your life worthless.
 
Read this great article on the subject of suicide and why it is generally viewed unfavorably:


"I maintain that, from the point of view of the suicidal actor, planning to kill himself and carrying out the act is also rationally motivated. However, we regard this interpretation as so flagitious -- so indecent -- that, for most Americans, it is as good as taboo. The only socially acceptable view is that suicide is a "cry for help," uttered by a person who has a mental illness (depression) and denies that he is ill...

...Our psychiatric-ideological prejudgements prevent us from acknowledging the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune as the reason why some Americans choose to kill themselves for personal reasons.

We are as squeamish and superstitious about suicide as people used to be about demonic possession and witchcraft. And we will remain so until we begin to take seriously how we talk about it.

"

http://www.szasz.com/iol18.html
 
Japan and China have interesting social contexts as regards suicide. I remember a character in Wild Swans (a Chinese woman's autobiography, chronicling the upheavals of the cultural revolution etc), tlaking about how a man she knew wanted to kill himself. BUT in China suicide is seen as an act of political protest or of family shame, and he didn't want folks to either give his family grief over his political actions or suspect they had something to hide.

So the guy went out and slept with many prostitutes in a effort to contract some nasty VD which would kill him, and it did, slowly and very painfully. I felt sorry for the dude (and it was true, as the book isn't fiction).

All Japanese upper-class folks in old Japan used to be taught to kill themselves quickly and relatively painlessly (men - sword up below the rib cage and sever the aorta, women, cut the carotid artery).

Regarding selfishness, the important thing to realise is that many people who try are mentally ill. From a rational perspective, it makes no sense to kill oneself, and yes, one can quantify the pain of offing oneself to nearest and dearest as a good reason not to do it.

BUT the mentally ill person is not able to see the world as it is, and imagines, is convinced even, that they are a burden to their loved ones, that their loved ones would really be better off without them around, and seek to sacrifice themselves in order to "allow" those around them to live a more trouble free existence. It's the sick, twisted world view you get when mentally ill. I believe that depressed folks are just as insane as the guy who hears George Bush telling him to go put a tinfoil hat on all day through the TV, it's just not as outlandish and easy to spot. This is why arguing logically with the depressed is a bit of a waste of time - and why psychiatrists aren't keen to chat with you at length about why you feel the way you do until you've been taking your medication for a while....
 
I tell people to kill themselves all the time. But that's just my retort if someone is being a dick to me.

But seriously, my views on suicide: If you want to kill yourself, go ahead. But, I will see you as weak. There are people who can help.

Then again, I dunno. Maybe the psychs couldn't help. In that case, I don't know. Nevermind.
 
the important thing to realise is that many people who try are mentally ill. From a rational perspective, it makes no sense to kill oneself,
I would argue that you don't have to be irrational OR mentally ill to kill yourself.Read the article I posted.


"I maintain that, from the point of view of the suicidal actor, planning to kill himself and carrying out the act is also rationally motivated. However, we regard this interpretation as so flagitious -- so indecent -- that, for most Americans, it is as good as taboo. The only socially acceptable view is that suicide is a "cry for help," uttered by a person who has a mental illness (depression) and denies that he is ill... ...Our psychiatric-ideological prejudgements prevent us from acknowledging the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune as the reason why some Americans choose to kill themselves for personal reasons.
"
 
If you want to kill yourself, go ahead. But, I will see you as weak. There are people who can help.
You are making the assumption that there is something "wrong" with a person who kills himself.You cannot possibly imagine that there are in fact 100% RATIONAL reasons to kill yourself.You have been brainwashed.

"We are so blind to the essentially human (non-"pathological") nature of voluntary death that we deny the reality of what people throughout history viewed as "heroic suicide." "Of all the ‘isms' produced by the past centuries, fanaticism alone survives," declares memory-champion Elie Wiesel. "We have witnessed the downfall of Nazism, the defeat of fascism, and the abdication of communism. But fanaticism is still alive."
...

"We are as squeamish and superstitious about suicide as people used to be about demonic possession and witchcraft. And we will remain so until we begin to take seriously how we talk about it.
-Thomas S. Szasz M.D
 
Are the palestinians who become suicide bombers mentally ill?
As was discussed on 60minutes,psychiatrists agree:no,they don't have to be pathological or mentally ill to kill themselves.We may not agree with their ideologies but we have to acknowledge that such acts can be ideologically i.e rationally motivated in THEIR mind.


"Our political-ideological prejudgements prevent us from acknowledging Zionism as the reason why some Palestinians choose to kill themselves for political reasons. Our psychiatric-ideological prejudgements prevent us from acknowledging the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune as the reason why some Americans choose to kill themselves for personal reasons. "
 
This topic is too unfocused to discuss with any meaning.
"Suicide" as a general topic lumps together such diverse actions as
1. A teenager wanting a way out of emotional anguish because they've encountered a temporary difficulty adults would recognize as a growing lesson.
2. An elderly cancer patient in pain wanting to end their otherwise successfull life on their own terms with dignity.
3. A freedom fighter giving his life for his ideals/God/country.
I don't see how to lump both of those together in any meaningfull way. One is a tragedy, the other a triumph.
 
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nordstrom said:
No, forcing people to be alive because it is convenient for you is selfish.


correct. selfishness is so dominate in our society its unbelievable. everything is me fucking me in this country. i want that, i want this, what do i get, where is mine. i have no doubt in my mind that most people dont have a clue what it feels like to be totally unselfish.

i personally dont think the answer to any problem is suicide but i am not against it.
 
Suicide Is Not a Private Choice

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

David Novak


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Copyright (c) 1997 First Things 75 (August/September 1997): 31-34.

The right to privacy has both positive and negative connotations for those who consider themselves part of the natural law tradition. On the one hand, a significant part of the experience of political totalitarianism in this century has been the total disregard for human privacy. The intimacies of family, religion, and friendship---traditionally outside control by the state---have been systematically invaded by totalitarian regimes. On the other hand, certain prominent forms of liberalism, with roots stretching back to the beginnings of modernity, have elevated privacy to the foundation of all rights and duties. In the radically individualistic claims made for privacy by many liberal theorists, we see the introduction of a dangerous idea of autonomy or practical self-sufficiency into political discourse.

Classical views of privacy are not based on the basic self-sufficiency of the individual. Every individual is a person necessarily imbedded in a range of multiple relations, and therefore, no one is really independent in anything but a relative sense; no one is truly autonomous. Autonomy can only be the property of God who is capable of creatio ex nihilo. It is a property no creature should attempt to achieve, let alone assume it already possesses. To view any individual as being independent of relationality is like viewing a point outside of a line, a line outside of a figure, a figure outside of a body.

Privacy itself is thus a relative term in the classical view. I have a right to privacy from the state in certain aspects of my family life (such as the choice to marry, the choice of whom to marry, the choice to have children, the choice to limit the number of children, etc.) because it would be an unwarranted extension of the authority of the state as a public institution to invade an area of human existence that it must largely leave alone if that area is to remain intact. The state’s right to invade this area of human relationship is justified only when it can be shown that rights beyond the realm of familial authority are being violated, as, for example, when children are being abused. The same would be the case in friendship: The state cannot determine who my friends are to be without simultaneously destroying the realm of friendship altogether. The state’s right to invade this area is justified only when it can show that rights beyond the realm of friendship are being violated, as, for example, when friends are conspiring against the safety or integrity of the society itself. And the same would be the case in religion. The state has no right to determine how I am to worship or not worship God without simultaneously destroying the free assent to faith (which always implies the free rejection of any faith or some one faith) that faith itself, as distinct from conventional religious behavior, seems to require for its very integrity. The state’s intervention is justified only when it can show that rights beyond the realm of any religious community are being violated, as, for example, when people are being held prisoner in religious communities or being subjected to other forms of abuse. In all of these cases, we do see an affirmation of the freedom of choice, but we do not see the foundational autonomy that many liberals have seen as the ground of both freedom and responsibility.

Even though the term "autonomy" is usually taken in its Kantian sense (where moral law is self-legislation), the foundational autonomy of which I am now speaking is far more radical. Kant believed in the correlation of moral right and moral duty, and he did so based on his view of human nature and its essential sociality. Foundational autonomy asserts instead that in the most fundamental practical sense I am my own creator, which means that at the core I am alone. As such, I am free to do whatever I please. My nature is essentially amoral; it is coequal with my power. Thus my privacy is myself; everyone else is in truth a stranger.

In this view, my public involvement is a necessary evil, whose value is purely instrumental. Public responsibility is that limit on my activity I am willing to negotiate with others in society in return for a mutual nonaggression pact among ourselves called the social contract. It is, in effect, a delayed gratification: I take less now in order to be able to keep it longer. The state is what we establish in concert to make sure that no one can cheat on this contract with impunity. But since such private, selfish persons cannot expect any trust from one another, and thus cannot constitute a community between themselves, they must create the state as an external institution (heteronomy) that stands over and against its citizens in their privacy (autonomy)---just as a police officer stands over and against potential criminals in order to frighten them into obeying the law. And because institutions and their bureaucrats have a way of quickly developing institutional interests of their own, the citizens whom they regulate subsequently develop as much distrust of this external, alien institution as they have for each other as potentially dangerous strangers.

How much this political bargain costs me in terms of my private power, which is now constituted as my "natural right," runs the gamut from the maximalism of Thomas Hobbes to the minimalism of Robert Nozick. But for everyone who holds some version of this view, my relations are not what I am already imbedded in but what I am able to create by and for myself, for nothing---not even God---transcends me.

Many constitutional scholars question the existence of a "right to privacy" in the United States Constitution. But the right is nonetheless at the heart of the 1973 Supreme Court decision in Roe v. Wade that permitted elective abortion in our society. Roe became so quickly institutionalized because it reflects a philosophy held by many in our society (whether "liberal" or "conservative") that the greatest right is the right to privacy and that the power of the state must regard itself as a means thereto. As Justice Brandeis once put it, it is the right "to be let alone."

Nevertheless, despite its notoriety, Roe does not present the most difficult moral challenge. Until recently, those in favor of elective abortion in our society confined their arguments to the question of the personhood of the fetus. By arguing that the fetus’ lack of separate bodily space from that of its mother makes it part of her own body, they concluded that abortion was a crime without a separate victim, hence by the criteria of foundational privacy, no crime at all. By implication, however, if it could be shown that the fetus is a separate life from that of its mother (for example, having its own genetic code from the time of conception), then even by liberal criteria there would be a crime with a real victim, hence prohibited by the social contract with its minimal requirement of protection of innocent persons.

What has emerged of late, however, is something that natural law adherents opposed to elective abortion have long suspected: the real reason behind the liberal enthusiasm for elective abortion is precisely that it is "elective." In other words, personal liberty, located in the right to privacy, is now presented as being more important than even the protection of innocent life. Thus some advocates of abortion on demand are now admitting that the fetus might very well be more than a part of the body of its mother but, nevertheless, because it is dependent on its mother for its life, she has the right to end that life if it interferes with the exercise of her own personal liberty. Of course, here the supposed line drawn between abortion and infanticide disappears.

That has created some degree of pause in the debate so far, it seems. If dependence on another disqualifies one from the protection of society, as in the case of the infant’s dependence on its mother’s body and the infant’s dependence on the attention of its caregiver, then where do we locate just who is not dependent on others? Is independence as liberty only the property of those who have the power to defend themselves? If that is the case, then even for radical liberals the social contract has been irrevocably broken. No one would be safe any more. Any distinction between right and might would thereby be destroyed.

Extending Roe v. Wade to permit infanticide admittedly requires the introduction of some additional premises. But the precedent of Roe is logically sufficient to justify what is now called "physician-assisted suicide." And, indeed, this was done in the decision of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit that declared the Washington State law prohibiting physician-assisted suicide to be unconstitutional on the grounds that it violated the guarantee of personal liberty in the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution. Though the Supreme Court on June 26 unanimously reversed the Ninth Circuit, this is exactly the same constitutional ground that Roe invoked. In a case where the killer and the killed are one and the same person (the physician being only an authorized agent of the suicide), the connection to a general protection of personal liberty is actually easier to make than in a case where, conceivably anyway, the one being killed is an actual victim of the aggression of a second party.

In the case of abortion there is a possible separation between criminal and victim, something punishable crime presupposes, which is not the case with suicide. Thus even the Talmud, basing itself as it does on biblical doctrines regarding divine creation and ownership of the universe, does not make attempted suicide a punishable crime even though it is prohibited. For to do so would be to punish a victim as much as a criminal. But because suicide itself is prohibited, those assisting in a suicide are to be punished on the grounds that "there is no agency for sin."

But is suicide an act one ever does entirely alone? Could we not view suicide an an act that involves the interrelationship of three parties: the individual person, the human community, and God?

A place to begin is Aristotle’s brief discussion of suicide in the Nicomachean Ethics.

Now when a person kills himself in a fit of anger, he acts voluntarily in violation of right reason; and that the law does not permit. Consequently, he acts unjustly. But toward whom? Surely toward the state, not toward himself. . . . That is also the reason why the state exacts a penalty, and some dishonor is imposed upon a man who has taken his own life, on the grounds that he has acted unjustly toward the state. . . . Justice and injustice always involve a plurality of persons.
Now this passage deals only with the relationship between the individual human person and the state, which is the institution of fullest human community. However, if we look at a strikingly similar passage from Aristotle’s teacher Plato, in the Laws, we see the relationship of humans and God as well as their relationship to a community included. The striking similarity of the two passages enables one to interpret them in concert.

Now he that kills the person who is, as people say, nearest and dearest of all, what penalty should he suffer? I mean the person who kills himself, violently robbing what Fate has allotted, when this is not legally mandated by the state. . . . The tombs of such persons shall be isolated.
The notion that suicide, as the most extreme exercise of the right to privacy, is an injustice toward the state, as Aristotle put it, suggests that the injustice is one of depriving the state of one of its members. Accordingly, it seems to be the crime of robbery. But that, of course, presupposes that individual persons are the property of the state, public chattel of which the state is wrongly deprived by the private act of suicide. It is desertion of duty that the state solely determines in its own interest. Yet is this not the very presupposition of totalitarian regimes, which assume that human persons are their property, to be used or discarded at will? Is this not the very historical stimulus that has made us so concerned with the right to privacy as the assurance of human dignity here and now? Surely, this fear is valid and deserving of the most serious attention.

Nevertheless, this fear is justified only if we assume that the injustice against the state is strictly that of robbery. For if that is the case, the state can just as easily mandate the death of those it considers useless or potentially dangerous as it can mandate the life of those it considers useful or benign. If, however, one regards the human person to be social by nature, then the function of the state is not to possess its citizens but to serve their social needs for each other. By identifying what those needs are, natural law can be the criterion for judging which human regimes deserve the moral loyalty of their members and which do not. The state is not an institution created by selfish individuals to stand over and against them because they do not trust anybody, even themselves. Humans are placed in society by something greater than themselves, as Plato pointed out, and they do not create society anymore than society creates them. The function of the state as the most general institution of human society is to order properly our mutual fulfillment of the needs of self and others. As the Bible puts it, we are all "bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh" (Genesis 2:23), and each of us is a "helpmate for the other" because "it is not good for humans to be alone" (Genesis 2:18).

If the social needs of humans are coequal with their existence, then that existence itself is essentially to be with and for others. As one sage is reported in the Talmud to have said when he returned to his old community after a long solitary absence, "either friendship or death." In fact, I think that is the human meaning of death. It does not mean "nonbeing" for us, which is something no one has experienced or could even imagine. (How could we imagine our own nonbeing when this very act of imagining presupposes our own existence? How could we imagine what has absolutely no analogue in our living experience?) Instead, death is our own final loneliness, our being abandoned to our ultimate privacy. It is the last time we are "let alone." That is why the most human reaction to adversity is to say that "my kin have abandoned me, and my fellows have forgotten me" (Job 19:14); that is why at the moment of death the most human reaction is to cry, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Psalms 22:2). That is why we fear death and do almost everything to postpone its inevitability. But how can we do that without the concern, the help, of those with whom and not just among whom we live?

Our loneliness is so painful, so terrifying, that when we feel abandoned before death has actually arrived, we are sorely tempted to take control and preempt its sting. Since loneliness is the premonition of death, control is our desire to cheat death of its capacity to rob us of the power that is the only thing we ever really had. In suicide we become death itself and thus attempt to transcend being its passive victim. We want to die just as we have lived---autonomously. Since we have believed in life that our dignity is to be self-sufficient, we now believe that we must die with that same dignity. Death is no longer the ultimate horizon that teaches us that our essence in this world is not to be in control but to make our peace with an order greater than anything of our own making.

Of course, such a suicidal course of action is now advocated only for those who are "terminal." But if death is our inevitable lot in the world into which we have been cast, who is terminal and who is not becomes an inherently hazy matter. If death is the ultimate loss of control, and if that is the ultimate human indignity inconsistent with life as autonomous self-possession, then there is no reason to ban or even disapprove of suicide for any mortal, rational, human being. In fact, following this lethal logic, we should encourage, maybe even mandate (law being the last step in the process of social policy) a time when the person bearing it is to dispose of it. That time is when death threatens to race beyond his or her control. Following this logic, is this not what is both good for ourselves and good for others, those others upon whom we become more and more of a burden?

This is where we are finally led when we assume that our privacy is foundational, that it is our most fundamental right. This insight was best explicated by one of the great founders of modern sociology, Emile Durkheim. In his classic study Suicide, Durkheim wondered why suicide rates have risen so sharply in modern industrial societies. His answer was to propose his theory of anomie, which is the sense of being personally unconnected to others, not being in a web of what the contemporary anthropologist Clifford Geertz has called "thick" culture. It is the sense of loneliness that comes upon people when they are increasingly taken by others and themselves as dispensable producers and consumers. In such a cold, uncaring environment, more and more desperate people sense that their own lives are simply more than they can bear by themselves alone.

It seems that there are two overall ranges of relations that are destructive of authentic human personhood (of which privacy is certainly an essential feature), that encourage spiritual dissolution. That is because in the case of one, there is too little privacy, and in the case of the other, there is too much privacy.

First, there is the totalitarian scheme that claims our total subservience and disposability for it alone. If any of us is better dead than alive for the state, it becomes our duty to be eliminated or to eliminate ourselves even before the state has to bother itself with that unpleasant necessity. Thus it was no accident that the suicide rate of German Jews beginning in 1933 dramatically increased---years before the actual "Final Solution" of the death camps was implemented---when the society to which most of them believed themselves to be integrated members sent them the clear message that their presence was to be removed at any cost. Death became the last privacy to which they were consigned.

And second, there are the radically liberal regimes that send the message to their citizens that they are basically on their own, especially in situations when tempted with self-destruction. Here is where persons are the least self-sufficient, the most in need of help from others. In fact, is not our primary social need the need to be helped to control our own murderous tendencies? Thus in the Bible, the first city is founded by Cain, the first murderer, who, when left alone after killing his brother cries out (Genesis 4:13), "My crime is too great to bear!" The city is to protect him both from being killed and from killing again.

When a society regards itself as being charged by a higher authority to care for each and every human life in its charge, is it not the prime responsibility of a society so charged to intervene, to break into our privacy, when there is a strong chance that death might otherwise occur? For if society is charged to defend all human lives from destruction, there is no longer a difference in kind between homicide and suicide. Killing is to be contained irrespective of who is killing and who is being killed. Along these lines, is it an accident that history’s most famous murderer, Adolf Hitler, died by his own violent hand, by the same means by which he delegated others to kill his victims? The fact that the criminal and the victim are identical is irrelevant inasmuch as the law is to protect all persons and not discriminate in favor of any one of them over the other.

Any society that is basically indifferent to this charge eventually loses the loyalty of its more morally sensitive members. This is true even of the state, society’s most impersonal institution. A society that does not care who lives and who dies can hardly expect loyalty from its members. Such a society runs the risk of its own death by the indifference of more and more of its members. In the end, the very public edifice that private, autonomous individuals have supposedly erected to protect themselves from themselves abandons all of them by refusing to protect each one of them. In the end, who needs the state at all?
 
Nathan said:
Well, first off it's redundant to call any act especially selffish since every last thing living organisms do is selfish in one way or another, which is obvious but nevertheless relevant. If you don't kill yourself then you have reasons for not doing it as well. For instance, it may make you feel good to have others care for you, or you may enjoy certain things about life and wish to spend more time indulging in them, etc. And thus what Nordstrom said was correct as well.
This is a common misconception and a perversion of the concept of selfishness versus selflessness. It is true that each and every action of any organism stems from self. No human can ever exhibit wholly unselfish behavior. However, the distinction between selfishness and selflessness exists as a continuum. The actors perception of the dynamics which exist between himself, the act, and other beings have bearing on whether an act can be called "selfish" or "unselfish," and to what degree it is so.

The distinction is this: A selfish actor is concerned only with himself and his own advantage, and expresses no regard for the wishes or well-being of others.

In contrast, when decisions are made with regard to the well-being of others, those actions posses a degree of selflessness.

When we care for someone, we are never without the self-serving satisfaction of having done so. However, having arrived at that satisfaction through other-serving means implies a degree of selflessness.


Nathan said:
I have to say that people who call suicide victims selfish are complete and total assholes. Anyone who suffers from depression knows what kind of pain someone who has the balls to off themselves must be in and to ask a person in such pain to grin and bear it for the sake of not hurting your feelings is the MOST selfish thing I can possibly think of. It's right up there with torturing someone for your own amusement. Fuck it, it IS torturing someone for your own amusement.
Suicide "victims" are the family and friends of someone who has killed himself. Usually they are the ones that get to come home and find daddy's brains on the wall. They come home to son hanging from the noose, face blackened, swollen 3 sizes too big, and oozing puss. They find their girlfriend cold, stiff, and lying in a pool of vomit. They find their husband in the bathtub, wrists slit, lying in a pool of blood.

Reread my first post. I have a great sense of compassion for those in such depth of despair that they contemplate suicide. If the thread on which this whole topic was started had not been erased, you could read for yourself that I have been on the edge of suicide myself. I do not look down upon those who contemplate suicide. Not for one second.

I will agree with you wholeheartedly that to tell someone in such despair to "grin and bear it" is an act devoid of compassion or understanding. However, to ignore one in such despair, to support suicide's very grip is on an other human being is more than devoid of compassion and understanding. It is evil.
 
Silent Method,do you agree with that article you posted?I found it repugnant.The author equates suicide with killing another person against their will.That's ridiculous.And he sees the issue from a religious perspective(jewish).You think society or government has more say on what you decide to do with your life than you yourself?
 
posthuman said:
You think society or government has more say on what you decide to do with your life than you yourself?
No. I think God does.

I threw the article in there because I thought it was interesting. Read my own written posts if you wish to evaluate my thoughts.
 
Frankly, if you "believe" in God then I have no desire to discuss this issue with you. There is no place for beliefs in an intelligent discussion.
 
Everybody should be allowed to do with his body whatever he wants. It is not your property nor is it the property of the government.
So if somebody decides to kill himself it is only his decision and noone´s else.
 
Nathan said:
Frankly, if you "believe" in God then I have no desire to discuss this issue with you. There is no place for beliefs in an intelligent discussion.
This is absurd. God or no God, no discussion can exist without beliefs. You think I'm silly for believing in God. I think you're silly for not believing in God. Can we ever prove each other wrong? Perhaps you are just as wrong as you think I am. Perhaps I am wrong. Without such diversity in thought, there is no such thing as meaningful, intelligent dialogue.

I think you're silly for not understanding the existence of a distinction between selfishness and selflessness. You, I can only assume, think I'm silly for insisting there is such distinction. Etc., etc.

Look Nathan, I addressed YOUR statement with NO mention of God. I believe the argument you stated in your first post to be partially illogical and partially misguided. I put forth my counter argument. Ignore it if you wish.





I think many of you have missed the intent of this thread. I have made no attempt to argue that "the government" has a right to tell you if you can kill yourself or not.

This thread was made in response to several individuals who scolded those who encouraged the choice of life over death to a person contemplating suicide. These individuals expressed great disdain for an individual contemplating suicide.
(Can those of you who argue that suicide is ok say that this is not wrong?)

Read my first post. I despise suicide. (If you do not, that is fine.) However, I do NOT despise those so gripped by depression that the contemplate suicide. I believe it is by my very human nature that I take pity on those in such pain.

Do we not agree that to belittle and shame those who are in such despair is wrong?
 
Silent Method said:

This is absurd. God or no God, no discussion can exist without beliefs. You think I'm silly for believing in God. I think you're silly for not believing in God. Can we ever prove each other wrong? Perhaps you are just as wrong as you think I am. Perhaps I am wrong. Without such diversity in thought, there is no such thing as meaningful, intelligent dialogue.

I think you're silly for not understanding the existence of a distinction between selfishness and selflessness. You, I can only assume, think I'm silly for insisting there is such distinction. Etc., etc.

Look Nathan, I addressed YOUR statement with NO mention of God. I believe the argument you stated in your first post to be partially illogical and partially misguided. I put forth my counter argument. Ignore it if you wish.


I felt what you said about selfishness versus selflessness was redundant and trivial to be quite frank with you. That wasn't my point though. My point about God was in reference to another post of yours wherein you did mention God.
What I meant about God is that if such an entity, that may or may not be judging you, is incessantly on your mind then clearly it is conceivable that subconsciously you have a need to convince yourself that you are a good and descent person and as such have positively impressed your God, lest your life would be one of torment awaiting the wrath of your alleged benefactor.

In any event, beliefs are, to be blunt and even a little elegant, retarded. Essentially a belief is a guess, or an educated guess at best, however the word implies more. It is as you said, no one knows what happens after death and there are an infinite number of other questions to which none of us have the answers. So why can't we just say that we don't know? Seems like the most accurate answer to me. If I had to make an educated guess about death I would say it's probably a lot like our existence before birth, of which we have no memory and can say that it at best resembles a whole lot of nothingness. I really do not know though. I also do not have all the answers regarding human nature. The best I can do is imagine a series of examples and counter-examples for a given scenario. So, I reiterate that to call someone selfish for committing suicide is pointless and frankly stupid when experience suggests that, having encountered no counter-examples to my previous statement, everything everyone does is selfish in some way and there are many many possible reasons why killing oneself might also inherently possess your so-called "selfless" motives. However, let me be so bold as to suggest that what you call "selfless" motives are also inherently selfish in one way or another, whether it be to protect ones offspring either directly or inderictly so as to pass on one's genes, or simply because society has instilled upon you a set of values or morals and if you do not act "selflessly" then subconsciously you know the guilt you will potentially endure outweighs your sacrifice.
 
Nathan said:
I felt what you said about selfishness versus selflessness was redundant and trivial to be quite frank with you. That wasn't my point though.
Fine, but you have offered no counter argument. In addition, comments which you have made in this last post lead me to believe that you have failed to comprehend my argument.
Nathan said:
My point about God was in reference to another post of yours wherein you did mention God.
What I meant about God is that if such an entity, that may or may not be judging you, is incessantly on your mind then clearly it is conceivable that subconsciously you have a need to convince yourself that you are a good and descent person and as such have positively impressed your God, lest your life would be one of torment awaiting the wrath of your alleged benefactor.
This is quite possibly so, but has little bearing on my argument. Tell me, as one who does not believe in God, do you, or do you not feel that human beings share in the responsibility of the well-being of our fellow human beings?

Nathan said:
In any event, beliefs are, to be blunt and even a little elegant, retarded.
>>
So why can't we just say that we don't know?
Again, I find this absurd. Everything we "know" is simply a belief. Even the most powerful of science's "facts" are mere probablility. We only know something because we believe we know it.
Nathan said:
I also do not have all the answers regarding human nature. The best I can do is imagine a series of examples and counter-examples for a given scenario.
I can do better than that. I can observe my very nature, and that which I believe to be the nature exhibited by my fellow human beings.
Nathan said:
So, I reiterate that to call someone selfish for committing suicide is pointless and frankly stupid when experience suggests that, having encountered no counter-examples to my previous statement, everything everyone does is selfish in some way and there are many many possible reasons why killing oneself might also inherently possess your so-called "selfless" motives.
I can only reassert that I have addressed and, I believe, refuted this argument.
Nathan said:
However, let me be so bold as to suggest that what you call "selfless" motives are also inherently selfish in one way or another, whether it be to protect ones offspring either directly or inderictly so as to pass on one's genes, or simply because society has instilled upon you a set of values or morals and if you do not act "selflessly" then subconsciously you know the guilt you will potentially endure outweighs your sacrifice.
Again, please re-read my post addressing your first post. I think you have failed to comprehend it's message.




Nathan, for a moment, lets put aside the argument of our epistemological and philosophical differences. Put aside our differing views on the implications of the act of self killing. Put these aside, and pease address what I have outlined as the point of this post: Do we not agree that it is wrong to belittle and shame those who are in such despair that they contemplate suicide?
 
I do not agree that it is wrong to belittle others. It is no more wrong to hurt others than it is to hurt yourself. After all, haven't you said it is essentially the same thing? My point is that to me, one who does not share in any beliefs about God, there is no higher being to assert right and wrong. So who is to say what is right and what is wrong? The collective? Well, I have to say that the collective has been wrong about many matters before. After all, a staggering number of people believe in some form of organized religion, whereas the rest of us do not. We can't all be right. So, putting selfishness aside for a moment, to believe in right versus wrong spawns all kinds of crazy, hypocritical bullshit and here pops up the whole belief system again which no one can seem to agree upon. Yet, those in power seem to have no problems forcing their belief system of right versus wrong on the rest of the human populace and even the rest of life of Earth. So, essentially, you have a whole bunch of retards in congress or whatever who say that if you violate the rights of others then you will punished by the state. However, since we cannot all agree upon what is morally right and what is morally wrong and we cannot all agree upon what punishments are to be enforced upon those who break the "law", then those in power - the aformentioned assholes in congress - will take it into their own hands to decide right versus wrong for the rest of us, thus violating countless individual rights in a single act. To me that is one of the biggest acts of hypocrisy imagineable. Therefore, no i do not think it is necessarily accurate to belittle and shame others, though i personally do not normally engage in such activities especially when it comes to those who are depressed.
 
A few years back and a few towns over, there was an "incident" that took place. There was a 30 something year old man who was a close friend of a family with two twin daughters. The girls were about 10 years old when one day the man came to take the girls to the park. They didin't come back.

This man took both girls to an abandoned garage. He raped and sodomized both girls with both his penis and with an iron bar he found on the floor. We he decided he had enough he took turns swinging each of the girls in the air by their limbs and slamming them into the walls untill their bodies were destroyed.



FUCK your moral individualism. Evil exists and their is a distinction between it and good.

We can nitpick about this or that being right or wrong, including the moral weight, or lack theirof regarding kicking a fellow man when he's down. However, some of these basic distinctions between right and wrong are so intrinsic, so universal in nature that I cannot acept that any individual who objectivly evaluates his heart could disregard these truths.


If your beliefs cannot incorperate this, the best we can do is agree to disagree.
 
Your difficulty with facing reality is not a justifiable reason to lump everything into categories that make you feel more comfortable with and distanced from that which you fear. The same applies to religious individuals who chose to adopt certain beliefs simply because they are not comfortable with an especially unattractive yet viable reality.
I do agree that I now no longer which to discuss this with you however so let's run with that emotion.
 
Silent, sorry bro, but You were both making good points, but you lost me with that wierd story of the girls.

Everythings fake
 
PoyeBoy said:
Silent, sorry bro, but You were both making good points, but you lost me with that wierd story of the girls.

Everythings fake
I'm sorry I lkost you, but I believe you have missed the point. Re-read the story in context with Nathans preceding post.

Nathan asserts that their is no right and wrong save for the rules set forth by the power and majority. Now read what happened to those children.

Now, you tell me if a human being needs rules set forth by the power and the majority to classifiy that as right or wrong?




Nathan, I respect that you no longer wish to argue with me. However, would you mind explaining what you mean by stating that I "lump everything into categories that make <me> feel more comfortable with and distanced from that which <I> fear." Is this is simply an extension of your belief that humans have no intrinsic and universal understanding of right and wrong?
 
self-hatred is the most powerful form of egotism...

ego is what makes a man an individual...

it all boils down to a person's beliefs
and whether they live for themselves
or for others...

suicide is different for all people and
no one can really make value judgments
until they are truly faced with it as a viable
option and make the choice...

one way or the other...
 
Silent Method said:


Nathan asserts that their is no right and wrong save for the rules set forth by the power and majority. Now read what happened to those children.

Now, you tell me if a human being needs rules set forth by the power and the majority to classifiy that as right or wrong?



Right and wrong are largely social inventions. Child molestation was so common in ancient Greece that it was taken for granted, now it is a major evil.

Your story about those children is another example of the social contruct of good & evil. I don't know how to prove it exactly, but i am sure with some research i could find a society that tolerated that kind of behavior. Perhaps a society where 'lower class' people didn't have the same rights as higher class. Ancient india would probably be a good reference point, if an Aryan (in ancient india they were considered superior) did that to an native indian it probably wouldn't raise anymore eyebrows than stepping on a bug does today. Many of the organizations of the past considered evil today were considered good when they existed. The inquisition, the KKK, the nazis, the communists.
 
nordstrom said:



Right and wrong are largely social inventions. Child molestation was so common in ancient Greece that it was taken for granted, now it is a major evil.

Your story about those children is another example of the social contruct of good & evil. I don't know how to prove it exactly, but i am sure with some research i could find a society that tolerated that kind of behavior. Perhaps a society where 'lower class' people didn't have the same rights as higher class. Ancient india would probably be a good reference point, if an Aryan (in ancient india they were considered superior) did that to an native indian it probably wouldn't raise anymore eyebrows than stepping on a bug does today. Many of the organizations of the past considered evil today were considered good when they existed. The inquisition, the KKK, the nazis, the communists.
Yes, at one time or another, things that others find appaling have been accepted by the majority. You are saying that this discrimination in the perception of the acceptability of these actions eliminates the concept of right and wrong.

So what your saying, quite simply, is that their is nothing wrong with child molestation, or the rape, tourture, and murder of those girls unless we agree on it being wrong?

I disagree. The "right" of the majority stops the moment it infringes on the well being of those who would be victimized.

Spare the inquiries into sociology. I'm asking YOU, the reader - is what happened to those little girls good or is it bad? Is it right, or is it wrong?

If the vast majority of our society said that it was good, would that make it so?



I have little time to add to this debate at the moment, as I must get to class. In the mean time, you would do well to inspect these essays by Kant.
 
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