Real good Oil/Ethanol article

[Razorguns]

http://www.postchronicle.com/commentary/article_21215723.shtml

I think MTSW wrote it. Explains the why of everything you may have ever asked.

 

[Island Son]

bs.
as soon as I read "price-controlled socialist-corporatist economy so ardently desired by liberals".... geez, they're 3 completely different philosophies. That's the first clue the author is on a rant.
I'd estimate it's 85% bs, with 10% distortion.

 

[jack sparrow]

bs.
as soon as I read "price-controlled socialist-corporatist economy so ardently desired by liberals".... geez, they're 3 completely different philosophies. That's the first clue the author is on a rant.
I'd estimate it's 85% bs, with 10% distortion.

razortool is 'special'. Cut him some slack

On second thought...no...he really is an idiot.

 

[Razorguns]

bs.
as soon as I read "price-controlled socialist-corporatist economy so ardently desired by liberals".... geez, they're 3 completely different philosophies. That's the first clue the author is on a rant.
I'd estimate it's 85% bs, with 10% distortion.

read the facts, not the commentary. Opinions are useless. But fact-based arguments are solid.

 

[Island Son]

ok... so if i take only the first sentence of each point, I'll revise that to 20% bs. I don't think environmental policies increase gasoline prices... it should be decreasing them due by increasing demand for cleaner, more efficient engines = less gasoline used = less demand therefore lower price. The other 4.... ok.
But the commentary wormholed the openings into new undiscovered dimensions

 

[Razorguns]

ok... so if i take only the first sentence of each point, I'll revise that to 20% bs. I don't think environmental policies increase gasoline prices... it should be decreasing them due by increasing demand for cleaner, more efficient engines = less gasoline used = less demand therefore lower price. The other 4.... ok.
But the commentary wormholed the openings into new undiscovered dimensions

Environmental groups prevent refineries, pipelines, you name it. This INCREASES our reliance on foreign oil.

Less gasoline used will NOT lower our prices. China/India will GLADLY use oil that we don't use. Oil prices will remain high.

And if govt can't get that tax rev -- they'll increase taxes. And voila! We have european oil taxes on our hands. Yeah 4 us! We pay more, and drive less. Our standard of living drops. We are smart!

 

[gotmilk]

3. Russia, a major oil producer, is increasingly using its oil and natural gas as a political and diplomatic weapon, deliberately curtailing supplies and raising prices to European customers. Those customers will, from time to time, buy more from producers now shipping to the United States, thus raising spot market prices

BS.
Companies like Gazprom and Lukoil are offering allocations left and right. The author failed to realize that the Russian government revolves around money...and those in power have their hands in every allocation.

The more they sell, the more money the insiders make.

 

[Razorguns]

[Companies like Gazprom and Lukoil are offering allocations left and right. The author failed to realize that the Russian government revolves around money...and those in power have their hands in every allocation.

The more they sell, the more money the insiders make.

You said yourself - The russian govt, politiians, control the oil output. What do you think they can do with that? When has govt control of a commodity been efficient?

 

[gotmilk]

We can't follow Brazil's lead, because sugar prices in the United States are artificially held far above world prices by the fascist-corporatist agricultural price and production controls introduced by President Roosevelt's New Deal

We can't compete with Brazil because the U.S. inacted a large import tax on Brazilian sugar cane back in 2003. Florida sugarcane crops were damaged last year by multiple hurricanes.

Already processed ethanol from Brazil is taxed at 54 cents per gallon.

Potatoe, corn, and woodpulp cannot produce the same energy as sugarcane.

Reduce or revoke the current sugarcane tax and we can make ethanol much cheaper. One of the tribes here in Maine is working on a large LNG complex complete with refinaries and a tax free port for sugarcane importation.

 

[gotmilk]

You said yourself - The russian govt, politiians, control the oil output. What do you think they can do with that? When has govt control of a commodity been efficient?

The government allows unlimited oil sales..as long as Putin and his friends receive cash kickbacks. Cash thru a third party via a World Top 20 bank.

They are not curtailing output...only making sure they get their beaks wet on each sale.

 

[Razorguns]

We can't follow Brazil's lead, because sugar prices in the United States are artificially held far above world prices by the fascist-corporatist agricultural price and production controls introduced by President Roosevelt's New Deal

We can't compete with Brazil because the U.S. inacted a large import tax on Brazilian sugar cane back in 2003. Florida sugarcane crops were damaged last year by multiple hurricanes.

Already processed ethanol from Brazil is taxed at 54 cents per gallon.

Potatoe, corn, and woodpulp cannot produce the same energy as sugarcane.

Reduce or revoke the current sugarcane tax and we can make ethanol much cheaper. One of the tribes here in Maine is working on a large LNG complex complete with refinaries and a tax free port for sugarcane importation.

Good discussions.

If compapnies wanted to import ethanal by the boatloads that tax can be reduced. Taxes are set by how much the Govt expects that item to be imported. A ferrari would get a higher tax than an accord.

The transportatio and infrastructure costs themselves make it feasible. This is not even getting into the science of ethanol.

 

[gotmilk]

Good discussions.

If compapnies wanted to import ethanal by the boatloads that tax can be reduced. Taxes are set by how much the Govt expects that item to be imported. A ferrari would get a higher tax than an accord.

The transportatio and infrastructure costs themselves make it feasible. This is not even getting into the science of ethanol.

The import tariff on sugarcane was bumped higher in 2003.

 

[Lumberg]

when the author uses the word "fascist" to describe the system in the US (the the section purported to be just the "facts"), you have to take the whole article with a grain of salt.

another gem, razor.

 

[Razorguns]

when the author uses the word "fascist" to describe the system in the US (the the section purported to be just the "facts"), you have to take the whole article with a grain of salt.

another gem, razor.

Nice reply. Why don't you think it's not facist? Explain. Not letting you off that easily bucko.

 

[Lao Tzu]

They were interesting arguments, its just too bad he used phrases like "Even in the fully-managed, price-controlled socialist-corporatist economy so ardently desired by liberals" in his arguments.

He never even addressed all the other methods of obtaining oil though. Fuel oil can be obtained from coal, wood chips & other organic matter for about $70/barrel. And there is alot of oil in Canada & Russia that isn't even being dug up because it is not price competitive right now on the market.


Its really hard to take what he says seriously, I feel an urge to fact check everything he says just because he doesn't sound liek someone who would put facts above politics.

We should be encouraging India & China to develop alternate energy based economies, not look to keep oil prices down by any means necessary. China recently devoted about $180 billion over the next 10 years to clean energy sources. This is the good path to take.

 

[juiceddreadlocks]

cleaner engines are not the same as more efficient engines. They are two different ideas and are not really related. The EPA wants cleaner engines, they dont really give a shit about economy or we would have engines with 15:1 compression again that are NOx belching.

 

[WODIN]

read the facts, not the commentary. Opinions are useless. But fact-based arguments are solid.

Fact: You're an idiot when it comes to economics.

 

[blut wump]

Don't confuse the issue with facts.

 

[fistfullofsteel]

Fact: You're an idiot when it comes to economics.

Fact: The New York Football Giants are going to beat the piss out of the Dallas Cowpukes and give that fat piece of shit Benedict Arnold aka Bill Parcells another coronary. Enjoy another season of beat downs.

 

[WODIN]

Fact: The New York Football Giants are going to beat the piss out of the Dallas Cowpukes and give that fat piece of shit Benedict Arnold aka Bill Parcells another coronary. Enjoy another season of beat downs.

Fact: The Cowboys will own the New Jersey Gnats this season.

 

[fistfullofsteel]

Fact: The Cowboys will own the New Jersey Gnats this season.

Fact: Your alzheimer's is getting out of control. But don't go totally senile on us yet. I want you to witness and take in the path of destruction that the juggernaut known as the NY Football Giants is going to unleash.

 

[juiceddreadlocks]

Fact: Your alzheimer's is getting out of control. But don't go totally senile on us yet. I want you to witness and take in the path of destruction that the juggernaut known as the NY Football Giants is going to unleash.

I cant believe they whipped the shit out of my Chiefs this year. Damn, it wasnt even close.

 

[fistfullofsteel]

I cant believe they whipped the shit out of my Chiefs this year. Damn, it wasnt even close.

you best believe it brother and tiki barber has another can of ass whipping coming for the whole entire nfl. the other teams are running, the other teams are hiding, the other teams are scared. they're afraid new york football giants are going to run wild.

 

[WODIN]

Fact: Your alzheimer's is getting out of control. But don't go totally senile on us yet. I want you to witness and take in the path of destruction that the juggernaut known as the NY Football Giants is going to unleash.

Fact: Watching you cry like the little bitch you are this season will be nothing but pure joy.

 

[Island Son]

cleaner engines are not the same as more efficient engines. They are two different ideas and are not really related. The EPA wants cleaner engines, they dont really give a shit about economy or we would have engines with 15:1 compression again that are NOx belching.

The reason cleaner goes with more efficient is that they have the same goal, less pollution. There's less unburned gas in the exhaust, which makes families happy too from a savings and pollution standpoint.

 

[juiceddreadlocks]

The reason cleaner goes with more efficient is that they have the same goal, less pollution. There's less unburned gas in the exhaust, which makes families happy too from a savings and pollution standpoint.

I think we're talking about efficiency from a different standpoint, both being correct.

I'm talking about the difference in engines before pollution standards made compression lower (among other things). The same displacement engines could achieve higher mileage per gallon, but with the effects of higher compression on emissions such as NOx increase and increased amounts of engine oil burned in emissions.

Similar engines now with lower compression struggle to achieve the fuel efficiency that those engines achieved.

Families would not be saving $$ by using more pollution friendly vehicles, since they cannot go as far per gallon of fuel.

 

[Lumberg]

Nice reply. Why don't you think it's not facist? Explain. Not letting you off that easily bucko.

Do you even know the definition of fascism, Razorguns?

I'm going to do your homework for you this time:

Although the broadest definitions of fascism may include every authoritarian state that has ever existed, most theorists see important distinctions to be made. Fascism in Italy arose in the 1920s as a mixture of syndicalist notions with an anti-materialist theory of the state; the latter had already been linked to an extreme nationalism. Fascism in many ways seems to have been clearly developed as a reaction against Communism and Marxism, both in a philosophic and political sense, although it opposed democratic capitalist economics along with socialism, Marxism, and liberal democracy. It viewed the state as an organic entity in a positive light rather than as an institution designed to protect collective and individual rights, or as one that should be held in check. It tended to reject the Marxist notion of social classes (and universally dismissed the concept of class conflict), replacing it instead with two more nebulous struggles: conflict between races and the struggle of the youth versus their elders. This meant embracing nationalism and mysticism, and advancing ideas of strength and power as means of legitimacy, a might makes right that glorified war as an end in itself and determinant of truth and worthiness. An affinity to these ideas can be found in Social Darwinism. These ideas are in direct opposition to the ideas reason or rationalism characteristic of the Age of Enlightenment, from which liberalism and, later, Marxism would emerge.

Fascism is also typified by totalitarian attempts to impose state control over all aspects of life: political, social, cultural, and economic. The fascist state regulates and controls (as opposed to nationalizing) the means of production. Fascism exalts the nation, state, or race as superior to the individuals, institutions, or groups composing it. Fascism uses explicit populist rhetoric; calls for a heroic mass effort to restore past greatness; and demands loyalty to a single leader, often to the point of a cult of personality.

I don't think you could call much about the US, even The New Deal, fascist.

Clearly the source is very opinionated. He makes some good arguments, but his own political rhetoric dooms him as another political hack.

You don't get away with calling anything about the US "fascists" without making a lot of intellectuals roll their eyes, now matter how cogent your arguments are.

Good bye.

 

[fistfullofsteel]

Fact: Watching you cry like the little bitch you are this season will be nothing but pure joy.

Fact: Not in this lifetime. Red rover, red rover, we call T.O. over. And that is what the cowturds season is, OVER.

 

[The Shadow]

Bio-Fuel has been around for years...its a good alternative as well

 

[dullboy]

http://www.usatoday.com/money/world/2006-03-28-brazil-ethanol-cover_x.htm

read this article.

it's the most comprehensive story about this issue covered by the US media to date.

 

[Lumberg]

Trade subsidies/levies suck.