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Physical docs vs. Chiropractors
- Thread starter beastboy
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havoc
Shaolin Ninja
Most "physical doctors" (as you put it) think chiropractors are garbage and have no business practicing due to the quick schooling that some chiros go through, on the other end most chiros don't respect doctors at times due to the stereotype that chiros are garbage, etc etc. peace
beastboy said:Why is it that physical doctors never recommend chiropractors? Do they feel it is like some type of black magic or something? I have to have referrals for my insurance, and I asked to to see a chiropractor, but they won't give me a referral to do it.
depends on the doctor i guess
over here chiro is seen as the more legitamate of the alternative medicines as its roots are more closely associated with western medicine.....
but over here its not uncommon for pateints to be reffered for acupuncture etc...it really depends on the doc. if you have a back problem he feels he can treat (western medicne aint to good at chronic pain) he probably wouldnt refer you, if he cant do anythinghe might
if its non-back/spine related i dont see him referring you..
havoc said:
I'm puzzled by the term "quick schooling"...chiropractic school is 4 years long...the same as medical school. Many states require that a chiropractor must have a bachelor's degree PRIOR to entering chiropractic school in order to become licensed in that state. This brings the total to 8 years of education...the same for a general medical practitioner. Considering that many chiropractors spend at least one year as an associate with another chiropractor before going out on their own brings the total up to 9 or even 10 years. This exceeds the total years of schooling by general practice MD's. So quick schooling is untrue and in many cases more true for MD's.
Most of our professors are either MD's or PhD's or DC's, with emphasis on PhD's. This is how the profession is changing via better credentialling of instructors. No longer can chiropractic school be criticized for it's lackluster education as a whole when our teachers are reflections of the medical and typical western-based schools. Most medical doctors I know are very much aware of this; the MD's who are not are waaaaay behind the times and trends of patient interaction and current healthcare procedure.
It is interesting that the skeptical MD's (the ones honest enough and brave enough) who strike up a freindly 1-on-1 debate with me concerning neurology, anatomy, physiology or radiology learn very quickly that they made a mistake (or in the least met a strong match). In the end, after the conversation with me they usually realize that my being involved in patient welfare is a benefit. I am actually seeing a large number of medical referrals as a result of being seen more and more as a member of the team rather than as a quick schooled amateur healthcare provider. This will not happen without direct communication that breaks through the stereotypes and assumptions. I am actually quite surprised how many calls I now receive asking my opinion about certain cases as well.
I also take issue with the term "most" physical doctors. This is probably untrue, although there is no hard statistic to justify. There are many MD's who don't prefer interaction with a chiropractor but certainly not all of them. The tide is changing as more and more MD's are wanting to shift from a symptom-based approach to that of a wellness-based one--something many chiropractors have been doing for almost a century. Those MD's who do not recommend DC's are truly missing out on what their patients are wanting and doing. However, any medical doctor who recommends against a chiropractor to a patient or makes a negative generalization against chiropractic is in violation of the Wilks act: a U.S. Supreme Court ruling that MD's have neither the authority nor the right to make a recommendation outside their scope of practice and knowledge. With that aside, keep in mind that chiropractors and orthopedic doctors vie for the same patients, so in many cases there is a natural competition. If I hear an MD (no matter what specialty) say any of the above as reasons why not to go to a chiropractor they can expect a call from their state judiciary board. I am unafraid to go after licenses with repeat offenses. The AMA now agrees that MD's have no place to make generally negative statements about chiropractors. When pushed, state board and AMA will tell an offending MD to cease and desist.
Just catching everyone up to speed and correcting some errors of thought and information.
Kakdiesel
Banned
Great Post Back DOC..you get karma from me 
ANd you are very correct when you speak about MD's who have a problem with chiro's..when they actually get into a discussion about neurology, anatomy, and physiology, they can see for themselves that we're right up there with them (I believe we know about the Central and Peripheral nervous systems more than any general MD) in terms of knowledge.
And trust me folks, chiro school isnt a joke..i'm in it right now..and as I type I have to get ready to go take my Osteology and Arhrology exam
bet you dont miss those days Back Doc by the way, what state do you practice in? You're gonna think I'm crazy, but I think I'm gonna stay here in Atlanta and open up a practice..I know its totally over saturated here (because of Life University) with chiros but A) people in the area are familiar with what chiropractic is--overall health..Countless numbers of people have experienced first hand the "curing" of ALL ailments from colds all the way up to tumors via chiropractic care..its just awesome to know that in this part of the country, most of the people know what its about. And B) I'm korean american. ALl the koreans at school are actually straight off da boat (heheh i'm allowed to say that) and go back to da motherland to practice..and there is a huge korean population here in atlanta (anybody from atlanta here know about buford highway?? LOL) and I think I will do well if i stay.
just curious as to where ya practice Doc..
take care
peace
ANd you are very correct when you speak about MD's who have a problem with chiro's..when they actually get into a discussion about neurology, anatomy, and physiology, they can see for themselves that we're right up there with them (I believe we know about the Central and Peripheral nervous systems more than any general MD) in terms of knowledge.
And trust me folks, chiro school isnt a joke..i'm in it right now..and as I type I have to get ready to go take my Osteology and Arhrology exam
bet you dont miss those days Back Doc
by the way, what state do you practice in? You're gonna think I'm crazy, but I think I'm gonna stay here in Atlanta and open up a practice..I know its totally over saturated here (because of Life University) with chiros but A) people in the area are familiar with what chiropractic is--overall health..Countless numbers of people have experienced first hand the "curing" of ALL ailments from colds all the way up to tumors via chiropractic care..its just awesome to know that in this part of the country, most of the people know what its about. And B) I'm korean american. ALl the koreans at school are actually straight off da boat (heheh i'm allowed to say that) and go back to da motherland to practice..and there is a huge korean population here in atlanta (anybody from atlanta here know about buford highway?? LOL) and I think I will do well if i stay.just curious as to where ya practice Doc..
take care
peace
Kakdiesel
Banned
Oh by the way backdoc, did you ever see that TV talk show a long time ago where it had that MD who was arguing with Doctor Ian Grossman, DC? And how they got into a debate about medicine and chiro? i mean its OLD..like from the early 80's i believe..we watched a tape of it in class and it was hilarious..that MD looked retarded in front of all those people while he tried to debate with Dr. Grossman..
let me know
let me know
PURE EXTRACT
New member
That's really fucked up...I thought a doctor HAD to give you a referral if you asked for one? Mine always used to until I got PPO insurrance. Now I just go anywhere I want w/o permission 
The best thing to do is go to a doctor that specializes in back ect...
The best thing to do is go to a doctor that specializes in back ect...No it's no joke at all. Do you still have gross anatomy, radiology and biochem all next quarter? It was goodbye free time as I remember. Keep tabs on how many of your classmates drop out or flunk out. It is really eye-opening. I noticed at the time that there were a rather large amount of medical doctors who were in school there changing professions. I'm sure medical school has a high degree of former chiropractic students as well. All I can say is that the ones in our class really had a huge advantage over the rest of us with regards to the clinical sciences. However, everyone is in the same boat when outpatient clinic starts up.
I miss the metropolitan atmosphere of Atlanta, such as the mediterranean restaurant near chirostuff. Check out a restaurant called Pano's and Paul's. Once you get out in practice and start making some big money you'll eat there regularly if you stay in the area. Primo good stuff.
You should go see a good friend of mine who is a doctor on Buford Highway. He formerly taught radiology film reading in school and is a wealth of information as well as being a distinguished member of the profession. PM me as this could be a very powerful contact for you.
I have a copy of the debate on the show "Saturday Night" between Dr. Ian Grassim and Dr. Stephen Barrett (the guy from the quackwatch website). You're right, Grassim blew him away. Incidentally, Grassim was co-founder of Life U. Anyway, funniest part was when Barrett said, "the main difference between medical doctors and chiropractors is that you chiropractors just love your patients!" He was trying to say that all benefit was placebo effect, but the audience turned on him at that point. I heard that after that debate he made it his mission in life to discredit as many chiropractors as possible but not from a debate standpoint. I assume it was in retaliation for Dr. Grassim embarrassing him so badly. What they don't tell you is how Barrett lost his AMA credentials.
While at Life, keep your eyes peeled for some big time professional athletes as they get treated by some of the faculty. One time in the gym, I split a protein bar and worked a couple of sets with one of the Atlanta Hawks. So don't be surprised if you bump shoulders with a few millionaire athletes.
I miss the metropolitan atmosphere of Atlanta, such as the mediterranean restaurant near chirostuff. Check out a restaurant called Pano's and Paul's. Once you get out in practice and start making some big money you'll eat there regularly if you stay in the area. Primo good stuff.
You should go see a good friend of mine who is a doctor on Buford Highway. He formerly taught radiology film reading in school and is a wealth of information as well as being a distinguished member of the profession. PM me as this could be a very powerful contact for you.
I have a copy of the debate on the show "Saturday Night" between Dr. Ian Grassim and Dr. Stephen Barrett (the guy from the quackwatch website). You're right, Grassim blew him away. Incidentally, Grassim was co-founder of Life U. Anyway, funniest part was when Barrett said, "the main difference between medical doctors and chiropractors is that you chiropractors just love your patients!" He was trying to say that all benefit was placebo effect, but the audience turned on him at that point. I heard that after that debate he made it his mission in life to discredit as many chiropractors as possible but not from a debate standpoint. I assume it was in retaliation for Dr. Grassim embarrassing him so badly. What they don't tell you is how Barrett lost his AMA credentials.
While at Life, keep your eyes peeled for some big time professional athletes as they get treated by some of the faculty. One time in the gym, I split a protein bar and worked a couple of sets with one of the Atlanta Hawks. So don't be surprised if you bump shoulders with a few millionaire athletes.
K
KAYNE
Guest
YOU NEED TO GET A REFERAL FROM YOUR INSURANCE CO. THEY WILL GIVE YOU A LIST OF CHIRO'S ON YOUR INSURANCE. GET THE REFERAL AND GO SEE HIM/HER. THATS ALL I DO.
FAMILY DOCS DONT THINK DR'S OF CHIRO ARE REAL DOCTORS. JUST THE SAME AS A CHIRO AND MESSEUSE (SP?). CHIRO'S DISLIKE MESSEUSES FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT A MESSEUSE CAN DO THE SAME THING A CHIRO CAN DO (MOSTLY ANYWAY) AT LESS COSTS AND WAAAYYYYYYY LESS SCHOOL.
KAYNE
FAMILY DOCS DONT THINK DR'S OF CHIRO ARE REAL DOCTORS. JUST THE SAME AS A CHIRO AND MESSEUSE (SP?). CHIRO'S DISLIKE MESSEUSES FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT A MESSEUSE CAN DO THE SAME THING A CHIRO CAN DO (MOSTLY ANYWAY) AT LESS COSTS AND WAAAYYYYYYY LESS SCHOOL.
KAYNE
K
KAYNE
Guest
ATLEAST THATS WHAT I HAVE GATHERED FROM A FRIEND OF MINE WHO IS A MESSEUSE AND MY CHIRO. LOL
KAYNE
KAYNE
KAYNE said:
It depends on what insurance company/policy a person has. Some require a referral from a Primary Care Physician (PCP), others don't. Some require pre-authorization, others don't. Some have a co-pay, others don't. Some cover 100% of costs, others 80%. Some have a large deductible, others don't. Etc, etc. All you can do is call your insurance and ask or look at your policy for verification.
KAYNE said:
This pretty much depends on the doctors involved. Interestingly, where do medical doctors go when they have back pain? They often go the orthopedist first, depending on any referral, then to a massage therapist, then to the chiropractor when all else fails. Just like anyone else, they usually get good results and sing the same high praises (although somewhat more quietly than other people). Sure, it's probably true that we aren't seen as real doctors from those who are. That's natural, and in many cases I agree. Since we treat only back pain and maintaining proper function of the nervous system from a unique standpoint, then yes, we are limited in what we can do. We certainly don't see any emergency cases the same as MD's and we don't prescribe medicines. So maybe it's a situation of apples and oranges. I personally don't care so much as long as they understand that there is a difference between a chiropractor and a medical doctor and that both have valid places in the healthcare arena. In my office I am the captain of the ship and what I say goes. If they don't follow my advice or attempt to tell me how their treatment should go then I kick them out of my office. Plain, simple, effective. It usually shocks the hell out a know it all patient or patient who does not listen to what I say to hear me say to my front desk person "Mr. or Mrs. So and so will not be making another appointment until they are ready to follow my recommendations or are serious about their care." You might be surprised how often medical doctors have to do the same thing when a patient won't follow directions. Whether a person is a chiropractor, medical doctor, landscape company owner or small business owner... they must take absolute control and be unafraid to put people in their place when needed. Sometimes that's the only way to get people to listen...sometimes it's the only way to help people get better.
KAYNE said:
I have a massage therapist working in my office. It is a wonderful way to relax and feel good and even help me get good results with my patients. As it is not the same in terms of effect, it is simply a good benefit to many chiropractic offices. It has it's place, but it is certainly not the same thing, nor do massages have anywhere near the same success rate with many types of back pain, headaches, posture problems, pain syndromes, general health, etc. If it did, then no chiropractor in his or her right mind would hire the competition in their own office! That would be professional suicide. Moving bones in the spine and extremities is a far cry from having a massage. It is also far more complex. This is one reason for the extended schooling. Trust me, you don't want someone adjusting your spine without years of education and training to back it up.
Although your chiropractor told you this, I would suggest not taking just one person's word for it. Not trying to insult by any means, but it may be that he's just not very good at adjusting and therefore is critical of the results/effects it can have when applied skillfully. When someone disses their own profession then it seems to me it is very possible that they have not mastered it or have some other ulterior motive in mind. Besides, if you're good at something then it is natural to want to tell others about it in a way that is flattering or beneficial.So I would probably take it with a grain of salt that he is telling you the two professions are equal in terms of results. Of course, take my words with a grain of salt as well. You might try checking around for another chiropractor as we are not all equal in terms of ability and skill.
K
KAYNE
Guest
BACDOC
I GET THE DISTINCT IMPRESSION THAT YOU ARE TALKING DOWN TO ME. YOU ARE UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT I ACTUALLY CARE WHAT A CHIRO, MD, OR MASSAGE THERAPIST THINK OF EACH OTHER. I HAVE LOTS OF FRIENDS IN THE MED FIELD AND I KNOW QUITE A FEW OF ALL THREE. I GO TO MY CHIRO WHEN MY LOWER BACK HURTS. I GO TO MY MASSAGE THERAPIST WHEN I HAVE KNOTS OR TENSION IN MY MUSCLES FROM VARIOUS ACTIVITIES. I KNOW THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE THREE. CHIROS AND MD'S MAKE LOTS OF MONEY. MY RECENT EX'S FATHER IS A CARDIAC ANESTHESIOLOGIST. PULLS IN CLOSE TO A MILLION A YEAR. IF I COULD BRING MYSELF TO GO TO ALL THAT SCHOOL, I'D BE EITHER. BUT I'M GOING THE SHORT WAY. I'M GOING TO SCHOOL FOR FINANCE AND I'M JUST GONNA EMBEZZLE ALL MY MILLIONS!!!
KAYNE
PS....JOKING ABOUT THE EMBEZZLEMENT.
I GET THE DISTINCT IMPRESSION THAT YOU ARE TALKING DOWN TO ME. YOU ARE UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT I ACTUALLY CARE WHAT A CHIRO, MD, OR MASSAGE THERAPIST THINK OF EACH OTHER. I HAVE LOTS OF FRIENDS IN THE MED FIELD AND I KNOW QUITE A FEW OF ALL THREE. I GO TO MY CHIRO WHEN MY LOWER BACK HURTS. I GO TO MY MASSAGE THERAPIST WHEN I HAVE KNOTS OR TENSION IN MY MUSCLES FROM VARIOUS ACTIVITIES. I KNOW THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE THREE. CHIROS AND MD'S MAKE LOTS OF MONEY. MY RECENT EX'S FATHER IS A CARDIAC ANESTHESIOLOGIST. PULLS IN CLOSE TO A MILLION A YEAR. IF I COULD BRING MYSELF TO GO TO ALL THAT SCHOOL, I'D BE EITHER. BUT I'M GOING THE SHORT WAY. I'M GOING TO SCHOOL FOR FINANCE AND I'M JUST GONNA EMBEZZLE ALL MY MILLIONS!!!
KAYNE
PS....JOKING ABOUT THE EMBEZZLEMENT.
KAYNE said:
No no, I was trying to get a word in edgewise with all that shouting you were doing!
j/kIn all seriousness, the more honest chiros have quite a job to do to try and correct the social stigmas that often surround the profession--much of it built up by our own bad apples as well as the competitiveness of all doctors in general. Not that we deserve anything special...we don't. Chiropractors are trying to get the word out that we have much to offer healthcare in general yet we are having to appease and convince the same organization (AMA) that tried to try and destroy chiropractic 15 years ago. As to what doctors think of chiropractors, I know it's pretty much small potatoes and non-issues to laymen. It's just that I would prefer to convey quickly the benefits of what we do versus other forms of treatment. Sometimes that can come across demeaning. But in a conversation we have to start somewhere in assuming what the average person's stigmas are. I definitely was not trying to talk down to you at all and if it sounded that way I apologize.
Peace
Kakdiesel
Banned
Kayne your my boy and all but I gotta disagree and take offense to you saying that massage therapists are anywhere closely related to chiro's.
Let me tell ya a story. I have a instructor named Dr. Krantz..He owns a practice on Canton Road. He's been doing this for close to 25 years.
He makes a lot of money, yes. Tons. He has all the new equipment and technology out there for chiro's. He owns a huge practice. He owns a huge home. He makes a LOT of money.
Now how does he make all this money? Does he charge out the ass for adjustments? Does he screw insurance companies and people over? NO!
Why does he make so much money? he gives results. Ask any medical doctor or massage therapist if they've ever seen a tumor disappear with THEIR type of treatment. Ask them how many times they've seen a bruised kidney and then five minutes later it disappeared. Ask if they've ever helped somebody get back better vision or hearing after 20 minutes.
Chiro's are not for just back pain. Thats an idiotic stereotype. We fix the central nervous system. Plain and simple. And guess what? The CNS controls EVERYTHING from your blood vessels, muscles, organs, tissues, sweating, all the way to your eyes blinking. Dr. Krantz has many patients because he shows them that he cares truly about their OVERALL health, and gives them results everytime. Then they tell their friends about him and then he gets new patients..new patients=more money. This is a daily thing for him. He has so many patients he doesnt know what to do.
He's renting out Turner Field next fall for his kid's barmizfa (sp?). I mean renting out Turner fucking Field? AND throwing a party there as lucrative as most barmitzfa's are?
Yeah, he's a baller. heheh..but not cuz he is a good businessman..but because he is exactly what chiropractic is about.
Let me tell ya a story. I have a instructor named Dr. Krantz..He owns a practice on Canton Road. He's been doing this for close to 25 years.
He makes a lot of money, yes. Tons. He has all the new equipment and technology out there for chiro's. He owns a huge practice. He owns a huge home. He makes a LOT of money.
Now how does he make all this money? Does he charge out the ass for adjustments? Does he screw insurance companies and people over? NO!
Why does he make so much money? he gives results. Ask any medical doctor or massage therapist if they've ever seen a tumor disappear with THEIR type of treatment. Ask them how many times they've seen a bruised kidney and then five minutes later it disappeared. Ask if they've ever helped somebody get back better vision or hearing after 20 minutes.
Chiro's are not for just back pain. Thats an idiotic stereotype. We fix the central nervous system. Plain and simple. And guess what? The CNS controls EVERYTHING from your blood vessels, muscles, organs, tissues, sweating, all the way to your eyes blinking. Dr. Krantz has many patients because he shows them that he cares truly about their OVERALL health, and gives them results everytime. Then they tell their friends about him and then he gets new patients..new patients=more money. This is a daily thing for him. He has so many patients he doesnt know what to do.
He's renting out Turner Field next fall for his kid's barmizfa (sp?). I mean renting out Turner fucking Field? AND throwing a party there as lucrative as most barmitzfa's are?
Yeah, he's a baller. heheh..but not cuz he is a good businessman..but because he is exactly what chiropractic is about.
