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Mac173

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I frequent other boards on a regular basis just to see how opinions vary from board to board. One thing that always seems to stand out is peoples view on when to use HCG. It seems like most boards are dead set on using it during cycle and NEVER after. If I post my PCT and the most commonly recommended one around here it is slammed. Just curious why this is?
 
Maybe it's a definition of "during cycle". The period after the last injection and before the esters have cleared sufficiently for endogenous test production to recommence is viewed by some as still being during your cycle, albeit the tail end of it. PCT commences as your own production starts up again.

All posts here that I've seen, other than those suggesting HCG use mid-cycle to maintain testicular volume, suggest using HCG in that window between last shot and commencement of PCT.

If your cycle consists of short esters or you're finishing off with orals then HCG use and injection schedule or oral dosing should overlap.
 
If it works for you then that is all that matters. However, some of us were doing this over 10+ years ago and after awhile, the estrogen accumulation from the HCG eventually caused many people to suffer gyno symptoms and even full blown gyno itself. Standard dosing was 300-1000iu every 3-4 days.

This "new" use of Hcg has already been tried in the past like I mentioned. While using it 'may' help one come off a cycle and recover easier, eventually the sides will outweigh the benefits for 'most.'

Dan Duchaine had mentioned this in the early 90's (very briefly) in his writings, and a lot of us here where I live tinkered around with dosages to find the optimal amount. Well, knowing that this stuff isn't "cookie-cutter," it ended up being different for a lot of us. Obviously, if you are gonna run it throughout a cycle, you will want to use the lowest dosage possible to get the benefits that you are looking for (sex drive, LH-mimicking, large balls, etc), but even this, as time went on, caused problems for a lot of us.

It will also depend on the AAS that you are using. If using highly estrous compounds such as Test and Dbol, then estrogen levels will be through the roof. Not only that, but AI's will not help much at all in preventing HCG induced gyno. Therefore, Nolvadex must be used. Well, as you may or may not know, the anti-estrogen stack of choice during this time WAS Nolvadex/Proviron. Although these compounds helped a lot, eventually they weren't enough after awhile to combat the use of HCG for long periods of time, especially with large estrous AAS stacks. Some guys complained of gyno symptoms after only 3-4 weeks of straight use. Obviously some of us are more sensitive than others so it varied some on conditions.

Although trying to keep estrogen levels lowered, it didn't work out well for many. Therefore, people also suffered typical sides that are associated with elevated estrogen levels on top of the tit sensitivity.

SO in return, what a lot of us started doing was adding in either Fertodur or Clomid during the cycle to replace the Hcg use. So a typical cycle would have either Nolvadex/Clomid/Proviron or Nolvadex/Proviron/Fertodur. This worked out much, much better! If needed, we would add in Hcg bursts throughout the cycle for 1-3 weeks at the halfway mark of the cycle. Some of us....hehehehe....never came off for some periods of time so usually it was added every other month or so.

At the end of the cycle, we would TAPER our dosages hoping that the "ease" of ending the cycle would help in recovery, which we also later found it didn't really help much at all (for most). So we would run 3 weeks of Hcg @ 1,000-2,500iu every 3 days with Nolvadex and followed it up with either Clomid or Fertodur at the end. A lot of times, we would just end it with Fertodur or Clomid for a few weeks and just skip the Hcg use. A lot of us thought that starting the PCT using these drugs at the last 3 weeks of the cycle would put us back on track of recovery. It just never worked out like planned. Fortunately we were young (most of us) and were able to jumpstart our natty test easily and quite quickly. I wouldn't have those same positive experiences now though.

Now, we know that Nolvadex in a cycle of progestins "may" exacerbate gyno problems since it upregulates PgR expression. SO, although i'm a little off topic here, it does make it a little more tricky.

Obviously genetics will play a role here too. If you are naturally not prone to gyno, then it will not be as apparent as others whoare prone. I was this way for a long time, but after a few years of Hcg and heavy Dbol use from when I was young (and I didn't always use Nolvadex during these times...which was irresponsible), I started developing gyno in my mid-late twenties.

For a long time, it was hard for me to go above 600mg/wk of Test and moderate dosages of Dbol without getting flare-ups. Even using Nolvadex/Arimidex didn't help at all. Letrozole is awesome and worked well with the gyno knots and flare-ups, but it cut my sex drive down. AIFM worked for me everytime even though I was gyno prone. However, I have been off AAS since May of this year, and my Knots have flared up big time during this period. SO, I am just going to get gyno surgery very soon to fix it altogether. I haven't been taking anything at all to combat it while being off, as i'd rather it look its worse when I go to the surgeon so hopefully insurance will pay for it. Regardless, i'm having it done anyway.

SO.....now I only advocate Hcg use for ball size aesthetics every 4-8 weeks during a cycle for 7-10 days in short bouts with AIFM and Nolvadex if on hand. Nolvadex isn't used if i'm on a cycle that contains progestins. at the end of the cycle, I will run it for 2-3 weeks at lower dosages of 300-1000iu with AIFM/Nolva and follow this up with Clomid/AIFM. Some 'moderate' cycles may not even need Hcg use at the end, and Clomid may be all that is needed. I still like running Clomid throughout my cycles as well.

Fucking hell....i've written too much:)

That's my look on it. Remember too, that this was all trial and error on many, many of our uses....for years. The stuff I wrote above has no scientific writing in it, as during this time, we used our own trial and errors to give us our answers, which at the end is all that matters to me, and not somebody like SWALE stating otherwise. No disrespect either.

Been there and done that!

BMJ
 
Maybe some are referring to that window, but then that window can be differant lengths also. Some people run HCG for 10days and others for 3wks. Maybe I'm a little foggy on what people actually consider PCT.
 
BMJ, are you saying in your opinion that HCG should not be used during cycle due to the build up of estrogen that it can cause and in turn causing gyno? IMO it seems like a waste to use it during cycle, but then again I don't even pretend to be as knowledgable as many around here.
 
i tried running throughout cycle for the first 3-4 weeks. running low dose test and hcg @ 250iu's every 3-4 days caused flare up. nothing major just sore tender nips. i quit the during cycle use and instead opted, at ulters recommendation, to run 500iu's for 10days straight starting on the day of my 2nd to the last injection. i've recovered pretty well i'd say. didnt really crash hard, have lost some size and weight but still retained 15lbs lbm. like previously stated it's all trial and error. i took the advice of someone that has had much more time to trial and error than myself. if you read 100 pct threads, you'll get 100 pct and hcg recommendations. it's confusing and hard to decifer. good luck.
 
I wouldn't recommend Proviron for PCT since it's suppressive of the natural test production.

Link:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catprov.htm

It says:
"Unlike what some suggest or believe, its not advised that Proviron be used when not used in conjunction with another steroid, as it too is quite suppressive of natural testosterone, leading to all sorts of future complications upon discontinuation. Ranging from loss of libido or erectile dysfunction all the way up to infertility. One would not be aware of such dangers because Proviron fulfills most of the functions of normal levels of testosterone."
 
BMJ - good thoughts you got there

Kool - you post that up all the time... but yet, something tells me you don't know personally if any of that is true? Have you ever taken proviron during PCT and confirmed with bloodwork that it is suppressive? (compared to a same exact PCT minus the proviron of course)

Here's my experience with PCT... I've tried almost every variation I have read about on here and on other boards....NONE of them have ever worked for me... I had to run PCT several times after a cycle because previous ones "didn't take"... I'm currently in PCT now... exaclty one week after my last HCG shot and 17 days after my last prop & NPP shot... I tried things very differently this time.... because of the short esters, I ran the HCG ED at 500iu for the last 10 days of the cycle, then started clomid at 50mg ED... AIFM throughout.... So far, so good.... libido is still there, though the soldier doesn't salute as easily as he did before.... totally to be expected.... I'm very hopeful here that this could be *the* PCT for me.

When all is said and done, you have to take everything you read, resolve to try one and then another and then another until you finally find what works for you!
 
njmuscleguy said:
BMJ - good thoughts you got there

Kool - you post that up all the time... but yet, something tells me you don't know personally if any of that is true? Have you ever taken proviron during PCT and confirmed with bloodwork that it is suppressive? (compared to a same exact PCT minus the proviron of course)

Here's my experience with PCT... I've tried almost every variation I have read about on here and on other boards....NONE of them have ever worked for me... I had to run PCT several times after a cycle because previous ones "didn't take"... I'm currently in PCT now... exaclty one week after my last HCG shot and 17 days after my last prop & NPP shot... I tried things very differently this time.... because of the short esters, I ran the HCG ED at 500iu for the last 10 days of the cycle, then started clomid at 50mg ED... AIFM throughout.... So far, so good.... libido is still there, though the soldier doesn't salute as easily as he did before.... totally to be expected.... I'm very hopeful here that this could be *the* PCT for me.

When all is said and done, you have to take everything you read, resolve to try one and then another and then another until you finally find what works for you!



true that: I'm not talking out of personal experience I'm talking out of research
 
AhMadKooL said:
true that: I'm not talking out of personal experience I'm talking out of research

I've found this other link which says the opposite of what I have just said: That it's advisable to take proviron in PCT or as a bridge... I guess there is some contraversy about this topic:
http://forums.steroid.com/archive/index.php/t-199857.html

It says:
"Now, as if all of this weren’t enough, lets talk about how Proviron affects your HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular-Axis)…the thing that regulates the male hormonal system. When a reasonable dose of this stuff is given (100-150mgs/day), it had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels (6). Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH) and Leutenizing Hormone (LH) are two hormones which send a signal to your testes to produce testosterone. Good news for people considering it for PCT (http://www.anabolicreview-research.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=41) is that it can even raise your LH (10)! Thus, by not suppressing those hormones and maybe even raising some, your normal testosterone levels will remain intact. This points to a novel use for this compound during Post-Cycyle-Therapy for a non-suppressive “bridge” between cycles. In fact, in yet another study, administration of Proviron (basically the same dose as in the last study) produced no changes in steroids, thyroid hormones, gonadotropins nor PRL (Prolactin Levels…you want those to remain low).(8)."
 
yah...problem with "research" is that for every one viewpoint, there is always a counter-point... best way is just to do it!

I'm running proviron during my PCT for the first time now... I love the way I feel.... now time will tell (and bloodwork) to see if I recover ok
 
AhMadKooL said:
I wouldn't recommend Proviron for PCT since it's suppressive of the natural test production.

Link:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catprov.htm

It says:
"Unlike what some suggest or believe, its not advised that Proviron be used when not used in conjunction with another steroid, as it too is quite suppressive of natural testosterone, leading to all sorts of future complications upon discontinuation. Ranging from loss of libido or erectile dysfunction all the way up to infertility. One would not be aware of such dangers because Proviron fulfills most of the functions of normal levels of testosterone."

Cat's wrong. It's not suppressive and works very well for PCT
 
I look at it this way.... if most of my PCT's wind up failing (that's a different story in itself), and if this one wasn't any different, I want to FEEL GOOD, if nothing else.... so far, it's doing it's job nicely!
 
gettinripped said:
i tried running throughout cycle for the first 3-4 weeks. running low dose test and hcg @ 250iu's every 3-4 days caused flare up. nothing major just sore tender nips. i quit the during cycle use and instead opted, at ulters recommendation, to run 500iu's for 10days straight starting on the day of my 2nd to the last injection. i've recovered pretty well i'd say. didnt really crash hard, have lost some size and weight but still retained 15lbs lbm. like previously stated it's all trial and error. i took the advice of someone that has had much more time to trial and error than myself. if you read 100 pct threads, you'll get 100 pct and hcg recommendations. it's confusing and hard to decifer. good luck.

So I'm guessing you started 2-3 days before end of cycle. What about a long ester? My last cycle of test e I waited 7 days after last inject. before i started HCG use and did not use any on cycle.
 
Just to clarify...

The BigCat post from BB.com is old. I think he has retracted that statement to say the following, which is copy and pasted from a CEM post 2 months ago:

BigCat:
"That's the point I was making. Mesterolone may not be very supressive in normal men, but during PCT you are working on hypogonadal men. So I really wouldn't advise that."

"Another concern is that mesterolone will competitively inhibit SHBG. SHBG will already be very low. You want to have more SHBG in PCT as it has several roles in testosterone synthesis."

BMJ
 
srf173 said:
So I'm guessing you started 2-3 days before end of cycle. What about a long ester? My last cycle of test e I waited 7 days after last inject. before i started HCG use and did not use any on cycle.[/QUOT

how did you recover from that??

i started the day of my 2nd to the last injection, which was monday with hcg @ 500 iu's ed. my last injection was thursday. i ran hcg from monday and for the next 10 days straight. i then waited 2 weeks and began clomid @ 100mg's ed for 1 week. then ran clomid for 50mg's ed for 3 more weeks. the whole time i was running AIFM @ 4 sprays per day while running the hcg and then bumped it down to 2 sprays per day after the hcg. i'm still using 1 spray eod of AIFM right now and feel fine.

btw, i was running 250mg ed of test e as well. ran it for 14 weeks with some 'var @ 60 mg ed.

hope that helps.
 
gettinripped said:
srf173 said:
So I'm guessing you started 2-3 days before end of cycle. What about a long ester? My last cycle of test e I waited 7 days after last inject. before i started HCG use and did not use any on cycle.[/QUOT

how did you recover from that??

i started the day of my 2nd to the last injection, which was monday with hcg @ 500 iu's ed. my last injection was thursday. i ran hcg from monday and for the next 10 days straight. i then waited 2 weeks and began clomid @ 100mg's ed for 1 week. then ran clomid for 50mg's ed for 3 more weeks. the whole time i was running AIFM @ 4 sprays per day while running the hcg and then bumped it down to 2 sprays per day after the hcg. i'm still using 1 spray eod of AIFM right now and feel fine.

btw, i was running 250mg ed of test e as well. ran it for 14 weeks with some 'var @ 60 mg ed.

hope that helps.

I recovered fine. I only lost 3lbs by 4wks out and libido, energy and testicle size were all normal. Strength decreased a bit but that is to be expected.
 
Good thread! I find these days I am much more inclined to listen to peoples EXPERIENCE than some "expert" who talks like its gospel, but has never tried the stuff. I wish people would qualify thier responses with "I've never done this, but I heard/read that..."
I've been trying to find some info on selegeline and all I'm getting is cut and pastes from RX journals, etc. Sigh.
 
shivastool said:
Good thread! I find these days I am much more inclined to listen to peoples EXPERIENCE than some "expert" who talks like its gospel, but has never tried the stuff. I wish people would qualify thier responses with "I've never done this, but I heard/read that..."
I've been trying to find some info on selegeline and all I'm getting is cut and pastes from RX journals, etc. Sigh.

I hear ya. Sorry I can't help you out though. never used selegeline.
 
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