Nuts like a "WILD FIELDMOUSE" - HELP!!!!

[oldman69]

Started my PCT as recommended by DRJMW. Begining third week. No reaction from the "boys". Still in shrunken state (small, rather round, and hard). Strength and bodyweight still ok. Recovery from workouts a bit longer. Libido depressed.

If by end of third week if testicles have not responded do I continue the HCG?

Anyone (Jenetic)?

Thanks

 

[Jenetic]

What were the substances, dosages and duration of this cycle? Also, has this happened before?

Jenetic

 

[oldman69]

Jenetic,

First THANK YOU VERY MUCH for responding! Your thoughts are very important to me.

Cycle=

Duration - 10-15 wks. (hard to qualify due to I started with "fake" product)
Meds. - Testoviron/Test en./anavar/d-bol/proviron
Important: I am 45 yrs old - this was my first cycle in 15 years - before that I never used PCT, except for some HCG, here & there. The reason for the assorted meds, was that I was experimenting to see my body's reaction. No crazy dosages were used, at the most I was at 900mgs total for approx. 3 weeks, but overall averaged 500 - 650 total mgs per wk. The d-bol was only used for 2 wks. @ 25mgs ED. My body did not tolerate it well.

DRJMW ran complete bloods at the 10 week mark. Everthing ok, except my estrogen was too high ( 60 ,range 8-50 ). DRJMW suggested 1.5 arimidex ED for 3 weeks. Which I completed ( ran 500mgs test en for the last 4 weeks.
We thought this would get my estrogen undercontrol and set me up for a more efficient PCT recovery.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Jenetic]

From what you've told me so far, I don't see where the complication may be. Half way through your previous post the first thing that came to my head was that you did not incorporate and aromatase inhibitor initially. Then, I noticed you took the necessar measures to control that issue. Your testes should have responded by now. Did this decrease in libido take place during the cycle or after? Also, what type of HCG are you using? How are you mixing it and how are you storing it?

Jenetic

 

[oldman69]

From what you've told me so far, I don't see where the complication may be. Half way through your previous post the first thing that came to my head was that you did not incorporate and aromatase inhibitor initially. Then, I noticed you took the necessar measures to control that issue. Your testes should have responded by now. Did this decrease in libido take place during the cycle or after? Also, what type of HCG are you using? How are you mixing it and how are you storing it?

Jenetic

Jenetic,
Libido decrease took palce the last 4-5 wks. of the cycle.
HCG = Legal script from United Mail Pharmacy Services - Novarel, reconstit. w/bacteriostatic water. 10ml/10,0000iu(refrigerated after mixing)im injection.

Thanks

 

[Jenetic]

Could you post or PM me with your blood test results?

Jenetic

 

[Jenetic]

BTW...What the hell is a "Wild Fieldmouse?"

Jenetic

 

[oldman69]

BTW...What the hell is a "Wild Fieldmouse?"

Jenetic

Jenetic,

A wild field mouse is a mouse rodent that lives in fields. Their about 2-3 inches long. You need a microscope to see it's "unit"! That's how I feel about my "boys" right now!

I'll send you my bloods, but I do not know how to attach the file. I am fairly new to this forum. I'll resolve the issue and get themto you ASAP.

Thanks

 

[oldman69]

Could you post or PM me with your blood test results?

Jenetic,

Here are my bloods. Thought I would post, so we can all learn.

Thanks

Note: I have bloods from 2002. Interestingly my FSH was at 0.98.
This was with no AAS for 13 years+. My total test at the same time was 570 (range 241-827).

 

[Jenetic]

This now becomes somewhat of a complex question. Obviously, this doesn't appear to be an androgen dependant issue. The reocurring factors that seem to be associated with the majority of people in this category are elevated estrogen and/or prolactin during cycles. There are so many factors involved with erectile dysfunction such as hormonal, physical and psychological. The first thing that needs to be done is to diffrentiate between sexual interest/disinterest and achieving/maintaing an erection. There is minimal reserach out there to substaniate any conclusions. Therefore, I'm unfortunately unable to provide you with a concise answer in regards to libido.

In regards to the HCG, 1,000 IU's has show to be consistent in treating hypogonadism. This is just a starting point and is not final. In most cases, an increase in testicular volume is the key indicator in evaluating the responsiveness to gonadotropin therapy.

My recommendation would be to stay on track with things as planned. Incorporate 50 mgs Clomid ED if possible. By the end of the third week, if there has not been a noticabe change, start by taking a single dosage of 5,000 IU's HCG. The next injection will not take place for another 5 days.

Keep me posted. The next step will be based upon your response to the adjusted HCG dosage, if necessary.

Are you taking any other medications currently such as finasteride (Proscar/Propecia)? The more information you can give me, the more I can help. Anything related to your medical history would be greatly appreciated. PM me if you do not feel like disclosing this in the open forum.

Jenetic

 

[oldman69]

Jenetic:

I pm'ed you with some personal info.

As for the administration of 5000iu's of HCG, I completed that on 11-12-04. Three days later, I have seen a slight increase in testicular mass. In addition, for the first time in months, my "nads" are no longer hugging my body. I hope these are good signs?
What's the next step??

Thanks.

 

[Jenetic]

Those are excellent signs. What I would like to do now is to repeat this procedure again next week. Make sure you continue the nolvadex and/or clomid. Keep me posted.

Jenetic

 

[oldman69]

Those are excellent signs. What I would like to do now is to repeat this procedure again next week. Make sure you continue the nolvadex and/or clomid. Keep me posted.

Jenetic,

Do you mean another 5000iu HCG, 5 days from my last one?

Will 20mg of Nolva. (ED) keep the estrogen checked, given the large dose of HCG?

On another note, will the HCG, clomid, nolvadex, have an impact on the tests that the uro. wants to run? By impact I mean, negativity towards him treating me for ed-libido, & testosterone issues.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Jenetic]

Do you mean another 5000iu HCG, 5 days from my last one?

Will 20mg of Nolva. (ED) keep the estrogen checked, given the large dose of HCG?

On another note, will the HCG, clomid, nolvadex, have an impact on the tests that the uro. wants to run? By impact I mean, negativity towards him treating me for ed-libido, & testosterone issues.

Thanks in advance.

Correct. Youre next injection of 5,000 IU's will take place five days from your previous injection.

I've used 5,000 IU's numerous times in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED and had no gyno problems whatsoever. The addition of 50 mgs Clomid ED will assure you of preventing gynecomastia.

Depending on how you look at things, the current protocol will skew your results. By that I mean elevated LH, FSH, Testosterone ect. This is too be expected. The purpose of the current test is to see how you are reacting to the therapy. More importantly, the blood testing after PCT will be the determining factor in evaluating your recovery.

Youre course of treatment for ED and Testosterone should be addressed after you have completed PCT. You may be suprised by your results. HRT may not be required but is an option if desired.

Jenetic

 

[oldman69]

Jenetic,

What do you think of the attached file?

 

[Jenetic]

Is there something specific you wanted me to comment on?

Jenetic

 

[oldman69]

Is there something specific you wanted me to comment on?

Jenetic

J.,

Well, I thought the overall protocol made makes more sense than what DRJMW recommends. The higher HCG dosage for 16 consecutive days, may be just what someone like me needs, given my response to the normal PCT program. Just thought I would run this by you.

Thanks.

 

[Jenetic]

J.,

Well, I thought the overall protocol made makes more sense than what DRJMW recommends. The higher HCG dosage for 16 consecutive days, may be just what someone like me needs, given my response to the normal PCT program. Just thought I would run this by you.

Thanks.

You obviously do need a different program now that we have discovered the previous one to be ineffective. There isn't a single doctor out there that will start someone at 2,500 IU's HCG ED. 1,000 IU's on alternate days is typically the starting dosage. Daily administration is not common. The dosage should be adjusted accordingly based up the indiviual's response. Therefore, it's too early to jump to conclusions that you will need such a high dosage.

Jenetic

 

[Spartacus]

Jenetic,

A wild field mouse is a mouse rodent that lives in fields. Their about 2-3 inches long. You need a microscope to see it's "unit"! That's how I feel about my "boys" right now!

I'll send you my bloods, but I do not know how to attach the file. I am fairly new to this forum. I'll resolve the issue and get themto you ASAP.

Thanks

congratulations,you've introduced a new term into the "gear" lexicon
"I'm one huge mofo with wild field mouse balls"

 

[oldman69]

You obviously do need a different program now that we have discovered the previous one to be ineffective. There isn't a single doctor out there that will start someone at 2,500 IU's HCG ED. 1,000 IU's on alternate days is typically the starting dosage. Daily administration is not common. The dosage should be adjusted accordingly based up the indiviual's response. Therefore, it's too early to jump to conclusions that you will need such a high dosage.

Jenetic

Jenetic, thanks for the reply. Food for future thought.

Additionally, this is my second day after the second 5000iu HCG inject. I have noticed an additional testicular mass increase! I would estimate that complete return to normal size is only about 20% off, although my left testicle is lagging behind (estimate 35% off).

My question: What is the dosages for the remainder of the PCT? (this is my 4th week of HCG administration). My thought would be 2 more inject. at 2500iu ea. than 2 at 1000iu ea. (5 days apart ea. inject.). Then continue with Nolva 20mg ED, & clomid 50mg ED for 2-3 weeks. In addition, would it be wise to taper (1/2 dosages) the Nolva & Clomid for the last week?

Thanks Again. Much appreciated!

 

[Jenetic]

Jenetic, thanks for the reply. Food for future thought.

Additionally, this is my second day after the second 5000iu HCG inject. I have noticed an additional testicular mass increase! I would estimate that complete return to normal size is only about 20% off, although my left testicle is lagging behind (estimate 35% off).

My question: What is the dosages for the remainder of the PCT? (this is my 4th week of HCG administration). My thought would be 2 more inject. at 2500iu ea. than 2 at 1000iu ea. (5 days apart ea. inject.). Then continue with Nolva 20mg ED, & clomid 50mg ED for 2-3 weeks. In addition, would it be wise to taper (1/2 dosages) the Nolva & Clomid for the last week?

Thanks Again. Much appreciated!

I'm glad to hear things are improving. Also, it is normal for your left testicle to be smaller in size.

I would recommend continuing the current protocol for 2 weeks (two more 5,000 IU injections at five day intervals). Then, discontinue the HCG and continue with 50 mgs Clomid ED in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.

Welcome back.

Jenetic

 

[oldman69]

I'm glad to hear things are improving. Also, it is normal for your left testicle to be smaller in size.

I would recommend continuing the current protocol for 2 weeks (two more 5,000 IU injections at five day intervals). Then, discontinue the HCG and continue with 50 mgs Clomid ED in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.

Welcome back.

Jenetic,

Once again, thank youu very much for your support! Your concise, knowledgeable, advice is extremely valuable to the members of this forum, and much appreciated!

On another note. In the future after I mop up my ed issues, etc.., I am thinking of a more conservative approach. Possibly something like the following:

Wks. 1-3 Eq 600mgs/Primo Depot 400mgs
Wks. 4-12 Eq 300mgs / Primo Depot 400mgs
Wks. 1-12 Proviron 50-75mg ED
Wks. 1-12 HCG as needed to maintain testicle shrinkage (500iu E4-5Days)
Wks. 13-18 PCT

I do not believe that I would need any estrogen blockers due to the moderate dose of Eq & primo(no aroma).

Question?: do these meds have any history of impacting libido (ed issues), negative DHT feedback? All I hear is positive.

Thanks again.

 

[Jenetic]

You're more than welcome. Let's address the recovery issue before moving on to the next stage. This current recovery is not completed until you have had the final blood work performed in order for a proper evaluation. These results will have a substantial impact in regards to addressing ED, HRT and future cycles.

Jenetic

 

[oldman69]

You're more than welcome. Let's address the recovery issue before moving on to the next stage. This current recovery is not completed until you have had the final blood work performed in order for a proper evaluation. These results will have a substantial impact in regards to addressing ED, HRT and future cycles.

Jenetic,
Again great advice. My common sense was telling me the exact same thing, but given my mentality of forever challenging myself in all aspects of my life, stupidity took over. My mistake. Sorry, a waste of your valuable time.

I'll keep you updated on my progress.

Thanks, again.

 

[oldman69]

Jenetic? Re: Nuts like a "WILD FIELDMOUSE" - HELP!!!!

Jenetic,

I have been relentlessly researching my ed issues. I stumbled upon DHEA.
Upon reading the (low level) symptoms, I am a perfect match! This may well be my underlying problem.

Some of the low level symptoms:

decreased libido
erectile dynfunction
decreased salivia
sleep disorders
anxiety
depression
low testosterone
high estrogen
low LH & FSH
etc..,

I would give myself (1-10 scale) approx. an 8 to 10 for each with the exception of depression.

What's your thoughts/experience on DHEA?
Can I supplement with over the counter supplements?

Note: My gut feeling for years was that my adrenals were toasted, from years of abusing thermogenics. No doubt this is relative to my current issues.

Thanks again.
Your comments much appreciated.

 

[oldman69]

You're more than welcome. Let's address the recovery issue before moving on to the next stage. This current recovery is not completed until you have had the final blood work performed in order for a proper evaluation. These results will have a substantial impact in regards to addressing ED, HRT and future cycles.


Jenetic,

I have been relentlessly researching my ed issues. I stumbled upon DHEA.
Upon reading the (low level) symptoms, I am a perfect match! This may well be my underlying problem.

Some of the low level symptoms:

decreased libido
erectile dynfunction
decreased salivia
sleep disorders
anxiety
depression
low testosterone
high estrogen
low LH & FSH
etc..,

I would give myself (1-10 scale) approx. an 8 to 10 for each with the exception of depression.(off cycle)

What's your thoughts/experience on DHEA?
Can I supplement with over the counter supplements?

Note: My gut feeling for years was that my adrenals were toasted, from years of abusing thermogenics. No doubt this is relative to my current issues.

Thanks again.
Your comments much appreciated.

 

[Jenetic]

There are endless possibilites which can result in ED, many of which are not androgen dependant. The problem is that all the products being sold on the market will provide enough symptoms for you to say "oh shit, I got that." This reminds me of some Chris Rock stand up I saw where he was talking about prescription meds and their advertising. The specific example he used was "Do you got to sleep at night and wake up in the morning." Back to the subject, Dihydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) is technically the most abunt androgen in the male secreted by the adrenal glands. Low DHEA does not automatically result in those figures and symptoms which you have listed above. In specific, LH and FSH are a result of Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone (GnRH) from the pituitary. You can give it a shot but I highly doubt it will be worth your time.

Is your ED alleviated during a cycle when your androgen levels are elevated?

Jenetic

 

[oldman69]

There are endless possibilites which can result in ED, many of which are not androgen dependant. The problem is that all the products being sold on the market will provide enough symptoms for you to say "oh shit, I got that." This reminds me of some Chris Rock stand up I saw where he was talking about prescription meds and their advertising. The specific example he used was "Do you got to sleep at night and wake up in the morning." Back to the subject, Dihydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) is technically the most abunt androgen in the male secreted by the adrenal glands. Low DHEA does not automatically result in those figures and symptoms which you have listed above. In specific, LH and FSH are a result of Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone (GnRH) from the pituitary. You can give it a shot but I highly doubt it will be worth your time.

Is your ED alleviated during a cycle when your androgen levels are elevated?

Jenetic,

Thanks for the reply.

To answer the "ED alleviated during a cycle" question.

The answer is difficult. This was my first cycle in 15+ years. I went into the cycle with ed issues (was using 100mgs of Viagara 2-3X wk.). There was no response from the (600mgs)Test ent. for the first 5 wks. So I increased the doasage to 900mgs. for a few wks. At that point I noticed a substantial libido increase, but the ed issue remained, and progessively became a bigger problem due to my body no longer responding to the Viagra. I switched up the ed meds (cialis, levitra) and dosages to see if it made a difference. There was no change. Currently I've progressed to caverject, with the thought of giving my body a rest from the Viagra, and sorting this out so I have a long term plan.

Thanks again. Your comments are much appreciated.

 

[Jenetic]

We'll your ED is definitely not androgen dependant, therefore HRT for that specific purpose will not be very beneficial.

The consistency of the medications you are referring to will vary depending on the manufacturer. Generic products distributed over the internet fall in to this category. It's hit or miss in regards to the effectiveness of the products. Real pharmaceuticals made by Phizer or Lilly are second to none.

From what you have presented thus far, it definitely looks like either a blood circulation or psycholocial origin, more than likely a combination. You should speak to your urologist and have and ultrasound performed.

Jenetic

 

[oldman69]

We'll your ED is definitely not androgen dependant, therefore HRT for that specific purpose will not be very beneficial.

The consistency of the medications you are referring to will vary depending on the manufacturer. Generic products distributed over the internet fall in to this category. It's hit or miss in regards to the effectiveness of the products. Real pharmaceuticals made by Phizer or Lilly are second to none.

From what you have presented thus far, it definitely looks like either a blood circulation or psycholocial origin, more than likely a combination. You should speak to your urologist and have and ultrasound performed.

Jenetic

Jenetic.
Again thanks for the reply. Much appreciated.
All the ed meds I ever used were from Phizer, Bayer, Lilly. My thoughts are the same as yours in relation to a circulation problem. Psycholocially, I very much doubt there is any problem. I've been married 11 years. Very comfortable sex life. No issues at all. Never cheated on my wife, never intend to. If anything outside of the possible circulation problem, stress may be a factor.

Thanks,
I'll keep you posted on my results.

 

[oldman69]

Jenetic,

An Update of my progress:
As discussed I discontinued 5,000iu of HCG. It's now been 9 days since my last 5,000iu of HCG. I plan to continue the 50mg clomid & 20mg nolvadex for an additional 7 days. Then, will wait a week and go for my tests suggested by my Uro. for possible HRT. Is this a good plan? Will a week off clomid & nolva. be enough in order not to overstate my LH & FSH levels?

Overall I feel like I crashed a bit from discontinuing the HCG(as expected). Bodyfat % up, lower sense of well being, lower libido (intrestingly, the Viagra, cialis meds seem to be working again!-???) etc.., Everything seems to have leveled out the last few days.

Future food for thought:

- How would I manage cycles on HRT? I have researched, and suggestions are to cycle, then reduce dosages back to HRT levels, never actually going off. Hypothetically, would Primo 100mg EOD., & Masteron 50mg EOD fit into the equation? In the future I would like to eliminate arom. AS. Although DHT levels may then become an issue(?).

Thanks, your advice is always very much appreciated.

 

[Jenetic]

I would continue the Nolvadex and Clomid for an additional 14 days. Afterwards, wait 2 weeks and have your blood work performed. I don't see any major complications that would skew your test results significantly. Regardless, I would retest about 4 weeks after.

Considering your age and history, your doctor shouldn't have a problem with prescribing HRT in the form of a testosterone preparation. I believe you said it was him who brought up the idea in the first place. You will basically be on constantly with HRT. Once you have completed a cycle, you will resume HRT. I would still recommend using HCG and Nolvadex intermittently.

In regards to the usage of non aromatizing AAS, there isn't a problem there. What does matter now are your goals. It sounds to me like you are already in pretty good shape. I would focus on your overall conditioning and symetry instead of muscle mass. Personally, I would increase your testosterone and ancillary dosages for a period of time, 8 weeks, and then resume your HRT dosages. This should yeild far better results compared to that of primobolan ect. The other option would be to add in other AAS to your HRT for 8 weeks and then continue with your HRT afterwards.

Jenetic

 

[oldman69]

Jenetic,

Your sugestions are much appreciated, and I will follow exactly as you stated.
I'll follow up with you again after my test results.

Additionally:
My testicular mass seems to be holding. If a decrease, only very slight. Also, I have had night time, and morning erections (unusal for me) the last 2 days. This I believe is a good sign!

You hit my goals perfectly. At 5'10", 218lbs.(8-11%), going forward I only want to focus on conditioning and more balance. Your thoughts on HRT and cycling are on the money!

Thanks again.

 

[oldman69]

I would continue the Nolvadex and Clomid for an additional 14 days. Afterwards, wait 2 weeks and have your blood work performed. I don't see any major complications that would skew your test results significantly. Regardless, I would retest about 4 weeks after.

Considering your age and history, your doctor shouldn't have a problem with prescribing HRT in the form of a testosterone preparation. I believe you said it was him who brought up the idea in the first place. You will basically be on constantly with HRT. Once you have completed a cycle, you will resume HRT. I would still recommend using HCG and Nolvadex intermittently.

In regards to the usage of non aromatizing AAS, there isn't a problem there. What does matter now are your goals. It sounds to me like you are already in pretty good shape. I would focus on your overall conditioning and symetry instead of muscle mass. Personally, I would increase your testosterone and ancillary dosages for a period of time, 8 weeks, and then resume your HRT dosages. This should yeild far better results compared to that of primobolan ect. The other option would be to add in other AAS to your HRT for 8 weeks and then continue with your HRT afterwards.

Jenetic

Jenetic,

Ok, here we go! Blood work is back, but the docs office will not release results to me until the doc reviews (I wanted them faxed to my office). I managed to get the following from the nurse verbally:

estradiol - 62 (10-50)
total test 800 (228-827)
free test 224 (50-210)
C reactive protein 2.6 (<1 )

Initially she said everything looked great! Until I started to ask for specific results. I guess I'll have to wait for the doc's call for the real results.

What do you think of my estradiol level? This was almost the exact number (60) when I was in the middle of my cycle (see this thread). Also appears the tests were completed too soon (2 weeks) after my PCT. I have never had test levels even close to these numbers.

I am going out of town on business till 1-7-05 so it may be difficult to communicate till I return, but I'll try.

Thanks

1-4-05 Update:

Recieved bloods from doc.
DHEA Sulfate 378 (59-452)
TSH 1.95 (.40-5.50)
Test total 886 (260-1000)
Test free 224.8 (50-210)
FSH 9.0 (1.4-18.1)
LH 7.7 (1.5-9.6)
AST 31 (2-50)
ALT 32 (2-60)
Prolactin 2.5 (2.0-18.0)
Estradiol 62
Cholestrol 111 (<200)
Triglcy. 42 (<150)

Jenetic: What's your thoughts?

Thanks again.

 

[3nigma]

Man, now THIS is a good post! Any way to give karma out to multiple people on a thread?

 

[sigmund]

Jenetic,

Ok, here we go! Blood work is back, but the docs office will not release results to me until the doc reviews (I wanted them faxed to my office). I managed to get the following from the nurse verbally:

estradiol - 62 (10-50)
total test 800 (228-827)
free test 224 (50-210)
C reactive protein 2.6 (<1 )

Initially she said everything looked great! Until I started to ask for specific results. I guess I'll have to wait for the doc's call for the real results.

What do you think of my estradiol level? This was almost the exact number (60) when I was in the middle of my cycle (see this thread). Also appears the tests were completed too soon (2 weeks) after my PCT. I have never had test levels even close to these numbers.

I am going out of town on business till 1-7-05 so it may be difficult to communicate till I return, but I'll try.

Thanks

1-4-05 Update:

Recieved bloods from doc.
DHEA Sulfate 378 (59-452)
TSH 1.95 (.40-5.50)
Test total 886 (260-1000)
Test free 224.8 (50-210)
FSH 9.0 (1.4-18.1)
LH 7.7 (1.5-9.6)
AST 31 (2-50)
ALT 32 (2-60)
Prolactin 2.5 (2.0-18.0)
Estradiol 62
Cholestrol 111 (<200)
Triglcy. 42 (<150)

Jenetic: What's your thoughts?

Thanks again.

A while back when I got blood tested after finishing PCT (HCG / Nolva - then a further 4 weeks of Nolva / Clomid) my levels were similar to yours although LH / FSH was lower. Also my estradiol was elevated - made me think - does Nolva / Clomid somehow show up as excess estradiol on blood work?

Here's two reference ranges (what is regarded as normal levels):

Between 3-70 picogram/ml
Between 10-50 picogram/ml

But interestingly my doc states that for optimal sexual health, estradiol should be in the range of 10-30 picogram/mL for a man of any age.

 

[Jenetic]

Jenetic,

Ok, here we go! Blood work is back, but the docs office will not release results to me until the doc reviews (I wanted them faxed to my office). I managed to get the following from the nurse verbally:

estradiol - 62 (10-50)
total test 800 (228-827)
free test 224 (50-210)
C reactive protein 2.6 (<1 )

Initially she said everything looked great! Until I started to ask for specific results. I guess I'll have to wait for the doc's call for the real results.

What do you think of my estradiol level? This was almost the exact number (60) when I was in the middle of my cycle (see this thread). Also appears the tests were completed too soon (2 weeks) after my PCT. I have never had test levels even close to these numbers.

I am going out of town on business till 1-7-05 so it may be difficult to communicate till I return, but I'll try.

Thanks

1-4-05 Update:

Recieved bloods from doc.
DHEA Sulfate 378 (59-452)
TSH 1.95 (.40-5.50)
Test total 886 (260-1000)
Test free 224.8 (50-210)
FSH 9.0 (1.4-18.1)
LH 7.7 (1.5-9.6)
AST 31 (2-50)
ALT 32 (2-60)
Prolactin 2.5 (2.0-18.0)
Estradiol 62
Cholestrol 111 (<200)
Triglcy. 42 (<150)

Jenetic: What's your thoughts?

Thanks again.

In general, welcome back!

I'd like to see another set of blood work in about 4 weeks.

Jenetic

 

[b1ewsw32]

Good to see you're back bro! I just edited my selection for future Mods for EF forums, to include you, as I still thought you were a-wall LOL

Explain to me briefly if you can as to how the cyp gene generates new aromatase enzymes after aromasin is out of the system ie.24hrs x5-6 half-lives, and how long would it take to regenerate full jenetically pre-disposed aromatase enzyme potential?

Going to read your PM now.I'll talk to you soon.

B32

 

[Jenetic]

Good to see you're back bro! I just edited my selection for future Mods for EF forums, to include you, as I still thought you were a-wall LOL

Explain to me briefly if you can as to how the cyp gene generates new aromatase enzymes after aromasin is out of the system ie.24hrs x5-6 half-lives, and how long would it take to regenerate full jenetically pre-disposed aromatase enzyme potential?

Going to read your PM now.I'll talk to you soon.

B32

Tough question.

The Cyp19, composed of two protiens: NADPH cytochrome P450 and cytochrome P450 aromatase which contain the heme and steroid binding pocket, is regulated by tissue specific promoters in the first exon within a total coding region of nine exons and nine untranslated exons.

I can't remember the details in regards to the generation of transcription variants. If I'm not mistaken, the end results are transcript variants of identical coding sequences but different UTR regions. Also, I have no clue as to the exact time frame for the regeneration of the aromatase enzyme in general and even less knowledge when applied to the above scenario.

Jenetic

 

[b1ewsw32]

Tough question.

The Cyp19, composed of two protiens: NADPH cytochrome P450 and cytochrome P450 aromatase which contain the heme and steroid binding pocket, is regulated by tissue specific promoters in the first exon within a total coding region of nine exons and nine untranslated exons.

I can't remember the details in regards to the generation of transcription variants. Also, I have no clue as to the exact time frame for the regeneration of the aromatase enzyme in general and even less knowledge when applied to the above scenario.

Jenetic

Sorry J I didn't mean to make your head spin with my deeply analytical question.
All I need to know is from your experience and findings via various literature; roughly how long after aromasin is cessetated do the aromatase enzymes return to normal/full functioning?

I read on Anabolic fitness that it was several days after the necessary half-life elimination lowers the concentration of exemestane to 0 or close to it.

Thanks...B32

 

[Jenetic]

Sorry J I didn't mean to make your head spin with my deeply analytical question.
All I need to know is from your experience and findings via various literature; roughly how long after aromasin is cessetated do the aromatase enzymes return to normal/full functioning?

I read on Anabolic fitness that it was several days after the necessary half-life elimination lowers the concentration of exemestane to 0 or close to it.

Thanks...B32

Approximately 3-6 days.

Percent change from baseline (mean ± SD) in plasma estradiol concentrations after a single 25-mg dose of exemestane in 10 young males.

Jenetic

 

[b1ewsw32]

Thanks bro...I appreciate it.

B32

 

[Jenetic]

Anytime B32.

I just noticed you aren't plat anymore. I'll have the images hosted.

Jenetic

 

[Jenetic]

AS999007, any news or updates?

BTW...HRT is out of the question with those numbers.

Jenetic

 

[b1ewsw32]

Anytime B32.

I just noticed you aren't plat anymore. I'll have the images hosted.

Jenetic

Thanks J...for the detailed graph very useful. BTW I've read that study before. It's interesting.

B32

 

[oldman69]

Ok, here we go! Blood work is back, but the docs office will not release results to me until the doc reviews (I wanted them faxed to my office). I managed to get the following from the nurse verbally:

estradiol - 62 (10-50)
total test 800 (228-827)
free test 224 (50-210)
C reactive protein 2.6 (<1 )

Initially she said everything looked great! Until I started to ask for specific results. I guess I'll have to wait for the doc's call for the real results.

What do you think of my estradiol level? This was almost the exact number (60) when I was in the middle of my cycle (see this thread). Also appears the tests were completed too soon (2 weeks) after my PCT. I have never had test levels even close to these numbers.

Thanks

1-4-05 Test Results Update:

Recieved bloods from doc.
DHEA Sulfate 378 (59-452)
TSH 1.95 (.40-5.50)
Test total 886 (260-1000)
Test free 224.8 (50-210)
FSH 9.0 (1.4-18.1)
LH 7.7 (1.5-9.6)
AST 31 (2-50)
ALT 32 (2-60)
Prolactin 2.5 (2.0-18.0)
Estradiol 62
Cholestrol 111 (<200)
Triglcy. 42 (<150)

Thanks again.[/QUOTE]


Jenetic, this is were we left off.

Currently:
My thoughts regarding the test results on 1-4-05, were that they were skewed due to the PCT meds. My test levels were never even close to those numbers! I researched my old tests back 15 years till current and test levels ranged between approx. 180-310, LH approx. .7 -1.8. Given how horrible I felt overall and rapid increases in bodyfat % (fatter than I ever been), along with ed issues, I started the following the day after blood was drawn for the 1-4-05 test results. I truly believe that I would have continued to crash, only to return to my "normal" previous low test/LH levels.

Starting 1-1-05 for 8 days:

Nolva 20 mgs ED
Arimidex 1.5mg EOD
Test prop 50mgs EOD
HCG 350iu E4-5Days, sq

I continued with the following for next 8 days,

Nolva 20mgs ED
Arimidex 1.5mgs ED
Test prop 75mgs EOD
HCG 350iu E4-5Days, sq

I continued with the following for next 8 days,

Nolva 20mgs ED
Arimidex 1.5mgs ED
Test prop 75mgs EOD
Primo depot 100mgs EOD
HCG 350iu E4-5Days, sq

I then continued with the following to current date, (at this point believing that my estradiol level was in check)

Nolva 20mgs EOD
Arimidex 1.5mgs EOD
Test prop 75mgs EOD
Primo depot 100mgs EOD
HCG 350iu E4-5Days, sq

Had blood drawn for estradiol test on 1-21-05.
Result = 22 (range 10-50)

My Observations:

Approx. 1-8-05 my libido, mood, and overall feeling was much better and has continued to date with very little flucuation. The ed meds (viagara,cialis) have started to work again, along with their side effects returning. Oddly, body composition has not changed (weight steady), and still maintaining the higher bodyfat% that I had at the end of PCT.(diet good)

Overall my goal is to find a test prop or enanthate dose that has minimal sides and allows me to maintain a reasonable degree of bodyfat, muscle mass, and overall good sense of well-being. Also, I am testing the affects of Primo (no arom.) and what dose it can be of benefit, again considering the benefit/sides ratio.

Your comments will be much appreciated.
Thanks, again.

 

[Jenetic]

I apologize for leaving on such short notice. If I had know you were goana jump back on so quickly, I would have recommended otherwise. What you experienced was typical and nothing to be too concerned about without verifying that with additonal blood work. Sometimes it's necessary to test as frequently as a weekly basis.

No harm done. What's important is the form of treatment that's going to make you feel most comfortable both physically and mentally. You've got the right idea thus far but there are a few adjustments that should be made.

I would start by making the following adjustments:

1. 100 mgs Testosterone Cypionate/Enanthate EW
2. Discontinue the Primo, Arimidex, Nolvadex and HCG.
3. Have your blood work done in 3-4 weeks. Include Somatomedian C (IGF-1) test.

Most men can manage their health just fine on 75-100 mgs Testosterone EW without additional ancillaries. The blood work results will tell you how to go about adjusting your dosage and what ancillaries should be added, if necesary.

Jenetic

 

[Mythicalbeing]

This was a good read all. Very informative!

 

[oldman69]

I apologize for leaving on such short notice. If I had know you were goana jump back on so quickly, I would have recommended otherwise. What you experienced was typical and nothing to be too concerned about without verifying that with additonal blood work. Sometimes it's necessary to test as frequently as a weekly basis.

No harm done. What's important is the form of treatment that's going to make you feel most comfortable both physically and mentally. You've got the right idea thus far but there are a few adjustments that should be made.

I would start by making the following adjustments:

1. 100 mgs Testosterone Cypionate/Enanthate EW
2. Discontinue the Primo, Arimidex, Nolvadex and HCG.
3. Have your blood work done in 3-4 weeks. Include Somatomedian C (IGF-1) test.

Most men can manage their health just fine on 75-100 mgs Testosterone EW without additional ancillaries. The blood work results will tell you how to go about adjusting your dosage and what ancillaries should be added, if necesary.

Jenetic

Jenetic,

Thanks for the advice much appreciated. I have an appt. w/uro-HRT doc. on 2-4-05. I think I am going to lay it all out on the table for him and see what his thoughts are. I think he'll be willing to help in a positive way.

What are your thoughts in regards to my starting estradiol (62), and then after approx. 4 wks. of arimidex (1.5mgs ED), and (Nolva 20mgs ED) my estradiol still at 22? I know 22 is ok, but I expected it to be much lower due to the small amount of test I was taking etc.., and what I have read about arimidex lowering esto too low? It makes me believe that I may have addition issues regarding aromatase enzyme?

What are your thoughts if I were to stay with my current cycle for a while. Will the same EOD dosing of arimidex & nolva be overkill, or needed to keep my esto under control?

Thanks again.
Much appreciated.

 

[Jenetic]

Jenetic,

Thanks for the advice much appreciated. I have an appt. w/uro-HRT doc. on 2-4-05. I think I am going to lay it all out on the table for him and see what his thoughts are. I think he'll be willing to help in a positive way.

What are your thoughts in regards to my starting estradiol (62), and then after approx. 4 wks. of arimidex (1.5mgs ED), and (Nolva 20mgs ED) my estradiol still at 22? I know 22 is ok, but I expected it to be much lower due to the small amount of test I was taking etc.., and what I have read about arimidex lowering esto too low? It makes me believe that I may have addition issues regarding aromatase enzyme?

What are your thoughts if I were to stay with my current cycle for a while. Will the same EOD dosing of arimidex & nolva be overkill, or needed to keep my esto under control?

Thanks again.
Much appreciated.

It's all about balance and more specifically, the negative feedback loops which regulate the state of relative constancy. This is a crash course in regards to the subject. If you have a thermostat set at 70 degrees F (set point/average), an increase in temperature would be recognized by the sensor (intergrating center) which in turn signals the air conditioner (effector) to reverse the deveation from the set point. In addition, when the temperature drops below the set point, the air conditioner is then turned off.

Therefore, to keep things simple, you do not want your levels to be too low or too high. There are opportunity costs for these deviations and you should aim to keep your levels within physiological ranges. Decrease your arimidex dosage to 0.5-1 mg.

Jenetic

 

[oldman69]

It's all about balance and more specifically, the negative feedback loops which regulate the state of relative constancy. This is a crash course in regards to the subject. If you have a thermostat set at 70 degrees F (set point/average), an increase in temperature would be recognized by the sensor (intergrating center) which in turn signals the air conditioner (effector) to reverse the deveation from the set point. In addition, when the temperature drops below the set point, the air conditioner is then turned off.

Therefore, to keep things simple, you do not want your levels to be too low or too high. There are opportunity costs for these deviations and you should aim to keep your levels within physiological ranges. Decrease your arimidex dosage to 0.5-1 mg.

Jenetic

Jenetic,
Again, thank you very much for the reply.

I understand your thoughts exactly. My mind is not made up as far as what direction to pursue. I'll keep you updated with the results of my appt. w/uro-hrt doc on 2-4-05.

At any rate, in the future I believe aromasin, instead of arimidex (due to HDL/LDL effects) would be my better choice?

Thanks.

 

[Jenetic]

I would definitely go with Aromasin if it's available as an option.

Jenetic

 

[oldman69]

I would definitely go with Aromasin if it's available as an option.

Jenetic

Jenetic:

Update from my uro/Hrt doctor visit 2-4-05:

Was 100% open with my doc. Explained complete AAS history to current date. He listen, but with a puzzled look across his face. In summary, at the end of my story, he said he would not help me in any way! His biggest fear was that I might have a heart attack and then he would be liable! I explained there's nothing in the extensive bloods I had completed (he reviewed copy) that even slightly lends itself to a possible heart attack. His reply was that in addition to the heart attack problem, he was very concerned about my use of arimidex. He stated that it would "destroy" my liver (?) At that point I ended our meeting.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks.

 

[Jenetic]

I'm not suprised at all. It took me years before I found a qualified endocrinologist who was willing to work with me. It's all about the proper presentation of your case. For example, usage of AAS during college and you never felt the same once you discontinued usage. Sometimes you need to bend the truth to get your desired response. In addition, you want to make sure you qualify for treatment. This means that all your most recent blood work and physical symptoms need to clearly define and warrant for HRT. This is just a safer approach before admitting to long term usage. My advice would be to call around and ask whether or not the physician you may be interested in has dealt with any patients whom use or have previously used AAS.

There are a few studies which associate AAS and ventricular hypertrophy. The primary cause of ventricular hypertrophy in those studies is due to exercise. Androgens alone do not cause that. For example, taking AAS by itself does not induce muscle growth without the stimulus provided by exercise. Ventricular hypertrophy is an adaptation by the ventricle to increased stress, such as chronically increased volume load (preload) or increased pressure load (afterload). It is a physiological response that enables the heart to adapt to increased stress. However, the response can become pathological and ultimately lead to a deterioration in function. Ventricular hypertrophy is a normal physiological adaptation to exercise training that enables the ventricle to enhance its pumping capacity. This type of physiologic hypertrophy is reversible and non pathological.

The only way I can see AAS being associated with cardiac problems is primarily due to preexisting medical conditions such as chronic hypertension (high blood preassure) and atherosclerosis. In a situation like this, the individual should be properly educated on the interactions of the subtances with their body. In addition, there are many people with these preexisting conditions whom use AAS and are not adversely affected.

I have never seen Arimidex associated with hepatoxicity. Unless he can provide adequate evidence, that is his own personal speculation. However, Arimidex can cause problems with cholesterol. Short term usage has no life threatening and/or irreversible effects side effects. Cholesterol should be monitored with long term usage.

Jenetic

 

[oldman69]

I'm not suprised at all. It took me years before I found a qualified endocrinologist who was willing to work with me. It's all about the proper presentation of your case. For example, usage of AAS during college and you never felt the same once you discontinued usage. Sometimes you need to bend the truth to get your desired response. In addition, you want to make sure you qualify for treatment. This means that all your most recent blood work and physical symptoms need to clearly define and warrant for HRT. This is just a safer approach before admitting to long term usage. My advice would be to call around and ask whether or not the physician you may be interested in has dealt with any patients whom use or have previously used AAS.

There are a few studies which associate AAS and ventricular hypertrophy. The primary cause of ventricular hypertrophy in those studies is due to exercise. Androgens alone do not cause that. For example, taking AAS by itself does not induce muscle growth without the stimulus provided by exercise. Ventricular hypertrophy is an adaptation by the ventricle to increased stress, such as chronically increased volume load (preload) or increased pressure load (afterload). It is a physiological response that enables the heart to adapt to increased stress. However, the response can become pathological and ultimately lead to a deterioration in function. Ventricular hypertrophy is a normal physiological adaptation to exercise training that enables the ventricle to enhance its pumping capacity. This type of physiologic hypertrophy is reversible and non pathological.

The only way I can see AAS being associated with cardiac problems is primarily due to preexisting medical conditions such as chronic hypertension (high blood preassure) and atherosclerosis. In a situation like this, the individual should be properly educated on the interactions of the subtances with their body. In addition, there are many people with these preexisting conditions whom use AAS and are not adversely affected.

I have never seen Arimidex associated with hepatoxicity. Unless he can provide adequate evidence, that is his own personal speculation. However, Arimidex can cause problems with cholesterol. Short term usage has no life threatening and/or irreversible effects side effects. Cholesterol should be monitored with long term usage.

Jenetic

Jenetic,

Again, thanks very much for the imput. Much appreciated.

I guess I am now faced with the decision of continuing the search for the right doc. or going the self administration route, which I believe I can handle with a doc. working with me on periodic bloods that I request.

In regards to the arimidix, I agree with you 100%. His position was definetly his own unfactual opinion. I believe and you confirmed, that aromasin would be the better choice (not affecting lipid profile), but I have found it basically impossible to find(?)

Thanks for all the help! Your a tremendous asset to this forum, and if your responses are any reference to how you manage your personal life, you no doubt are making a great contribution to the world. The world needs more people like you!

Thanks.