Nervous About Bulking.

[Kabeetz]

Guys,

I was one of those fat guys (300 pounds), who used weightlifting and cardio and clean dieting to lose weight and shape his body (currently 183).

Even though it's kinda close to the summer, I am eager to start at least a moderate 10-12 week "bulking" program, starting about 3000 cals a day and going up to about 3500 maybe hitting 4000 near the end as long as my waistline stays in check.

The problem is that I am paranoid. To achieve these numbers w/ clean food sources, and not pack on a ton of fat as you all know, means eating a lot of whole foods preferably spread out in 2-3 hour increments throughout the day.

I feel like I am going to blow up and am not confident it's going to be all or even mostly lean mass.

My questions are as follows...

Am I just psyching myself out?
Can I expect decent mass gains in only 10-12 weeks or is it way too close to summer to try and add mass (going to Europe for 3 weeks August 1, so that's the target date)?
If I eat clean (lean meats, veggies, fruit, wheats, sweet potatos, unsalted nuts, protein, milk), what sort of increase in bf can I expect during this period proportionate to any fat I add?

Is it accurate that it will be easier to shred that fat in the 8 remaining weeks because of the caloric requirements of the new muscle?

Any tips for preventing excessive fat accumulation while bulking?

Big thanks.

 

[36drew]

Guys,

I was one of those fat guys (300 pounds), who used weightlifting and cardio and clean dieting to lose weight and shape his body (currently 183).

Even though it's kinda close to the summer, I am eager to start at least a moderate 10-12 week "bulking" program, starting about 3000 cals a day and going up to about 3500 maybe hitting 4000 near the end as long as my waistline stays in check.

The problem is that I am paranoid. To achieve these numbers w/ clean food sources, and not pack on a ton of fat as you all know, means eating a lot of whole foods preferably spread out in 2-3 hour increments throughout the day.

I feel like I am going to blow up and am not confident it's going to be all or even mostly lean mass.

My questions are as follows...

Am I just psyching myself out?
Can I expect decent mass gains in only 10-12 weeks or is it way too close to summer to try and add mass (going to Europe for 3 weeks August 1, so that's the target date)?
If I eat clean (lean meats, veggies, fruit, wheats, sweet potatos, unsalted nuts, protein, milk), what sort of increase in bf can I expect during this period proportionate to any fat I add?

Is it accurate that it will be easier to shred that fat in the 8 remaining weeks because of the caloric requirements of the new muscle?

Any tips for preventing excessive fat accumulation while bulking?

Big thanks.

Don't be afraid to do a few HIIT session each week while bulking. Not only will it keep fat off, but it will help keep your heart healthy.

As to wether or not you gain fat, it comes down to mostly diet. Figure out what your base metabolic rate is (BMR), aka, how many calories you can eat in a day to maintain weight, and add 500-600 calories to that. This is usually a good number for most people to add weight without getting fat.

And you are correct to say that the more muscle you have, the more calories you burn.

 

[SgtSlaughter]

Don't be afraid to do a few HIIT session each week while bulking. Not only will it keep fat off, but it will help keep your heart healthy.
As to wether or not you gain fat, it comes down to mostly diet. Figure out what your base metabolic rate is (BMR), aka, how many calories you can eat in a day to maintain weight, and add 500-600 calories to that. This is usually a good number for most people to add weight without getting fat.
And you are correct to say that the more muscle you have, the more calories you burn.

^^ great post.

If you are more prone to adipose depositation (the usual fat areas, love handles, gut mainly)... start off slower with only a few hundred calories higher than your BMR and increase weekly until you notice fat and/or start cardio then... or kick up your training.

A lean bulk is hard to pull off but if you're dedicated and determined enough very possible. A dirty bulk would be eat everything in sight and train your ass off... hell you'll get fat, but you'll put on a shitload of muscle too, lol.

 

[Ulter]

SesaPure/Glucorell while bulking. You will dispose of unused calories and lower any excess insulin that causes fat retention.

 

[Kabeetz]

I appreciate the input guys.

Right now my bulk is looking like this.

Sat M W - Single factor 5 X 5
Sun T T - 30 minutes HIIT

I'll post a detailed caloricdescription tonight when I get home from work if possible but here is a pretty thorough description so hopefully you guys can let me know where I'm at. According to fittogether.net I am at about a 3000 BMR which includes about 1000 "lifestyle" calories.

It basically breaks down to this, assume training day:

5:20 am muscle milk w/ 8 oz water & 8 oz milk
5:30 train
7:00 am approx muscle milk w/ 8 oz water 8 oz milk, scoop of anpb and 1 serving oats and multi vitamin
8:30 am 1 egg + two whites (3), 1 serving oat meal
11:15 am 2 4 oz servings ground lean turkey, 1/2 package frozen snow peas
2:00 pm 2 servings chicken breast, 2 slices whole wheat bread, 1 light yogurt
4:45 pm 2 4oz servings groun lean turkey, 1/2 package frozen italian medley (carrots, zuchini, peas)
8:30 pm 1 muscle milk w/ water, 2 servings frozen strawberries
11:15 2 servings cottage cheese w/ sugar free jello powder
Sleep.

Cardio is done on non training days in the evening, I wake at 7 those days. It may seem sleep deprived but I simply can't/don't sleep for much longer and usually wake w/out the alarm clock (though I dare not try it on a daily basis).

I must say I feel so much stronger overall, I've been making great progress on the 5 x 5, I have just completed week 5 and am really pleased (although i miss lifting heavy more frequently...and am nervous about the lack of direct trap + shoulder + arm work, I must say the low volume approach is effective) But I am really conscious every time I put on a pair of jeans and cinch my belt that I am bloating up.

The scale reflects that I have put on about 3 pounds in less then a week, though since I am eating right before bed I don't know how accurate that is. I'll measure my bf soon and hopefully that will give me a clear description of where I'm at.

THANKS AGAIN & please feel free to provide any more input.

--

Ulter, I have been interested in trying the AF line for some time, most notably the Yohimburn to try and kill the remaining love handle deposit but I will stick with your sesapure/glucorell recommendation.

 

[mm107]

kabeetz, get over to my thread in my sig and check it out. I was always heavt just like u were. And i was SCARED SHITLESS of getting even chubby again.

Lets say, since we are "scared" of getting chubby again, BULK CLEAN! Thats all i can say, Keep the BULK clean, even though it is hard to hit that many Cals cleanly, i do it. And instead of my abs getting covered i can slightly see them day by day. Not like i would be able to on a cutting diet, but they are there so i feel better about the day.

Im going to subscribe to this thread, Ill help you through anything u might ask, Besides if i dont answer in 10 mins some other good bro/gal will chime in fast.

 

[Lifterforlife]

As a former "fatty", you will have to be more careful with your bulk to say the least. What is percieved as lbm mass gained, when dieting end up right back in the same place, due to adipose gain rather than muscle.

This from Lyle McDonald, which is basically something I have preached for a long time also, and have noticed with many clients who bulk.

Dieted individuals typically show a biology that is absolutely not geared towards anything except packing the body fat back on. Typically, the metabolic consequences of dieting include a lowered metabolism, decreased fat oxidation, decreased HSL activity, increased LPL activity impaired hormonal status (including lowered testosterone and raised cortisol), decreased thermogenesis from a reduction in both thyroid levels and nervous system output and a host of other metabolic defects. All of these serve to both slow fat loss during the diet and ensure rapid fat regain when food is reintroduced.

For example, in the classic starvation study (the Minnesota Semi-Starvation study) men were dieted for 6 solid months reaching 4-5% body fat at the end of the study. Then they were refed and body composition was tracked. By the theory being advocated, they should have gained lots of LBM and little fat during refeeding, they were clearly super lean to start out with. But this is absolutely not what happened.

As would be expected based on the metabolic adaptations to dieting, their bodies were mainly primed to replenish fat stores. Reductions in metabolic rate, fat oxidation and thermogenesis all contributed to a preferential gain of body fat and these systems didn't reset themselves until all of the body fat lost had been regained (8). Quite in fact, signals from body fat (i.e. leptin and the rest) are the mechanism behind this physiology (9).

The bottom line is that, in dieted down individuals, the body is primed to gain body fat at the expense of LBM to replenish what was lost during the diet. Again, this is fundamentally different than looking at genetically lean individuals (for whom a low body fat percentage is their normal level) in terms of what happens when they are overfed.

Not meant to be a fear monger here, but the point is you will have to be very dilligent. I would suggest doing short bulking "phases" followed by as long as needed "hardening" phases.

 

[mm107]

As a former "fatty", you will have to be more careful with your bulk to say the least. What is percieved as lbm mass gained, when dieting end up right back in the same place, due to adipose gain rather than muscle.

This from Lyle McDonald, which is basically something I have preached for a long time also, and have noticed with many clients who bulk.

Dieted individuals typically show a biology that is absolutely not geared towards anything except packing the body fat back on. Typically, the metabolic consequences of dieting include a lowered metabolism, decreased fat oxidation, decreased HSL activity, increased LPL activity impaired hormonal status (including lowered testosterone and raised cortisol), decreased thermogenesis from a reduction in both thyroid levels and nervous system output and a host of other metabolic defects. All of these serve to both slow fat loss during the diet and ensure rapid fat regain when food is reintroduced.

For example, in the classic starvation study (the Minnesota Semi-Starvation study) men were dieted for 6 solid months reaching 4-5% body fat at the end of the study. Then they were refed and body composition was tracked. By the theory being advocated, they should have gained lots of LBM and little fat during refeeding, they were clearly super lean to start out with. But this is absolutely not what happened.

As would be expected based on the metabolic adaptations to dieting, their bodies were mainly primed to replenish fat stores. Reductions in metabolic rate, fat oxidation and thermogenesis all contributed to a preferential gain of body fat and these systems didn't reset themselves until all of the body fat lost had been regained (8). Quite in fact, signals from body fat (i.e. leptin and the rest) are the mechanism behind this physiology (9).

The bottom line is that, in dieted down individuals, the body is primed to gain body fat at the expense of LBM to replenish what was lost during the diet. Again, this is fundamentally different than looking at genetically lean individuals (for whom a low body fat percentage is their normal level) in terms of what happens when they are overfed.

Not meant to be a fear monger here, but the point is you will have to be very dilligent. I would suggest doing short bulking "phases" followed by as long as needed "hardening" phases.

Damn nice post.

Def, i feel when i am "off" diet, i put fat back on quickly. Thats why my bulker is CLEAN as i possible can make it.

 

[Ulter]

Lyle is right unless you change the balance with training, drugs or supplements. Also remember these men were strictly dieting and not training like we do today. That study was done during WWII, long before any training techniques used today. Most of Lyle's theories are based around non-training subjects.

A simple thing like Sesapure/Glucorell or Levorex changes your metabolism and the way your body wants to store fat. Throwing the results of that study in the tio tio.

 

[mm107]

Lyle is right unless you change the balance with training, drugs or supplements. Also remember these men were strictly dieting and not training like we do today. That study was done during WWII, long before any training techniques used today. Most of Lyle's theories are based around non-training subjects.

A simple thing like Sesapure/Glucorell or Levorex changes your metabolism and the way your body wants to store fat. Throwing the results of that study in the tio tio.

yea, i came back to recommend the glucorell stack it seems to work well for me

 

[Lifterforlife]

Lyle is right unless you change the balance with training, drugs or supplements. Also remember these men were strictly dieting and not training like we do today.

This may be true here, and excellent point. I have however observed myself as a trainer this happen many times. It is unfortunate, but a fact of life. Newer supplementation will help alleviate a bit of this true, but still the propensity is there.

Most of Lyle's theories are based around non-training subjects.

I think I may have to respectfully disagree here. I will take Llye over anyone in the field when it comes to diet.

A simple thing like Sesapure/Glucorell or Levorex changes your metabolism and the way your body wants to store fat. Throwing the results of that study in the tio tio.

I agree again that todays supplements can indeed sway things more positively, but none of them are magic. I still say the guy has got to be much more careful than your average normally lean trainee.

 

[mbcrump]

Lifterforlife gave me the same advise during my bulk up time and he was absolutely correct. I am a former fat person and I was able to gain pretty quick. I also had the fear of being fat again, but I just did it anyways. The hardest thing was for me to cut back cardio when I was doing around ~25 miles a week.

 

[Kabeetz]

I appreciare the support, and also I appreciate the cautious words.

My concern is not necessarily eating cleanly. I live alone and I do all my grocery shopping and have genuinely come to look at food as fuel rather than from a satisfaction/taste perspective.

However slip ups can and do happen.

Still.. I certainly recognize and identify with the idea of the formerly fat being inclined to get fat over getting muscular.

As posted above hopefully someone can comment on my diet? It's similar too my cutting diet just with more meals, a little bit more dairy, a preworkout shake (whereas I used to like working out on an emptier stomach so as to burn more stored calories), and though a tapering of carbs as the night progresses, meals right up until bed.

mm, I have been following your bulking thread ever since I decided I might want to bulk and you've been very successful, definitely can't wait to see updated pics and thanks for your interest in my progress.

 

[Kabeetz]

Lifterforlife gave me the same advise during my bulk up time and he was absolutely correct. I am a former fat person and I was able to gain pretty quick. I also had the fear of being fat again, but I just did it anyways. The hardest thing was for me to cut back cardio when I was doing around ~25 miles a week.

It's just hard to trade that feeling of a full stomach meaning = my muscles are gonna grow instead of = my gut is gonna grow! My mind isn't there yet. Hopefully the mirror will fix those fears quickly.

One thing I can say is that I have EVERY confidence that I can take care of anything that may go wrong fat-wise, I just wish I was doing this in september instead of march.. but hey.. it's worth a shot.

 

[JKurz1]

I appreciare the support, and also I appreciate the cautious words.

My concern is not necessarily eating cleanly. I live alone and I do all my grocery shopping and have genuinely come to look at food as fuel rather than from a satisfaction/taste perspective.

However slip ups can and do happen.

Still.. I certainly recognize and identify with the idea of the formerly fat being inclined to get fat over getting muscular.

As posted above hopefully someone can comment on my diet? It's similar too my cutting diet just with more meals, a little bit more dairy, a preworkout shake (whereas I used to like working out on an emptier stomach so as to burn more stored calories), and though a tapering of carbs as the night progresses, meals right up until bed.

mm, I have been following your bulking thread ever since I decided I might want to bulk and you've been very successful, definitely can't wait to see updated pics and thanks for your interest in my progress.

#1 your diet needs work and #2, don't fall into the supplement trap. Youll be fine without them. Excess calories will lead to fat gain no matter how you approach it. Just take it in stride. Make it 90% lean mass and you are on the right track.......ditch some of those shakes and get your whole food in !

 

[alex2678]

Agree with the above posts, especially the Minnesota Semi starvation study. People with a genetic predisposition towards fat storage will have an almost impossible time gaining fat free body mass no matter what type of diet they are following. There's really no such thing as a "clean bulk" for these people. My bodyfat was in excess of 40 percent at the start of high school and has been in the 6-13 % range for the last 10 years now. The only thing that's ever worked for me is to follow brief bulking/cutting cyles throughout the year. I've always increased my calories slightly above maintenence until I noticed a maximum 5-10 pound gain in fat, then switched over to a cutting cyle to lose the fat and maintain as much of the strength and size that I gained. Bulking for months on end will not work unless you've been naturally lean for your entire life starting at childhood.

 

[Lifterforlife]

Glad folks are taking this as the post was meant, just simply a "warning" to the poster to be extra careful.

I think my suggestion of short bulking periods and follow up hardening periods(the longer your bulking period, the longer your hardening period will be) will work the best, and not allow things to get out of hand.

I have found working with clients a 8 week bulk and a 3 week follow up hardening works well to keep things in check, and keep those nasty love handles at bay.

 

[SgtSlaughter]

^^^^^^^^

lol... COMPLETLY agree... after my previous September - end of December Bulker... damn did i put on some Mass though Broke a personal weight high (waaay too much fat though)... still working on chiseling it off.

 

[Kabeetz]

Glad folks are taking this as the post was meant, just simply a "warning" to the poster to be extra careful.

I think my suggestion of short bulking periods and follow up hardening periods(the longer your bulking period, the longer your hardening period will be) will work the best, and not allow things to get out of hand.

I have found working with clients a 8 week bulk and a 3 week follow up hardening works well to keep things in check, and keep those nasty love handles at bay.

When u use the term hardening period, do u mean basically a cutting cycle? 8/3 sounds good to me..

how drastic does the calorie reduction have to be to show quality results in 3 weeks?

Also, how and when can I expect this to affect my strength gains... i.e. will my strength taper off immediately as I reduce the calories or probably not until the 2nd or third week? Once i bump back up the calories, after a relatively short cutting period, can I expect my strength to return to week 8 levels pretty quickly?

Thanks again.

 

[Lifterforlife]

When u use the term hardening period, do u mean basically a cutting cycle? 8/3 sounds good to me..
how drastic does the calorie reduction have to be to show quality results in 3 weeks?

Normally it will actually work best with 4 weeks. Qualtiy results may not be the optimal word. What you are trying to achieve here mainly is nip any fat accumulation that is coming on fast, slow it down if you will, and burn a tad of what you have gained at the same time. If you simply cut out any "in between meal snacks" for instance, or "clean up your diet" if it is not completely so, this will normally make a good dent. Most folks do not eat a 100% clean diet. Add 20-30% more cardio than you are doing during your bulk.

Also, how and when can I expect this to affect my strength gains... i.e. will my strength taper off immediately as I reduce the calories or probably not until the 2nd or third week?

You should not notice any substantial decreases here unless you cut too much out too fast. This is very individulastic though, so hard to say. Your calorie reductions will not be that drastic.

Once i bump back up the calories, after a relatively short cutting period, can I expect my strength to return to week 8 levels pretty quickly?

Yes, should be no problem, as mentioned, should see little dropoff.

Thanks again.

Glad to help.

 

[pintoca]

PLAN PLAN PLAN, count calories. Bulking is dieting as well.

Train like you need to earn the extra food and don't be afraid of cardio if things start to get out of hand.

Don't make the mistake of "Oh well, I can have this (insert fatty yummy food here) since I'm bulking and I need the cals" mistake

 

[Kabeetz]

I had such an excellent 5x5 workout this morning... making new personal best triples in the bench, atf squat and row, and I was very anxious about plateauing this week (I felt as though I was running out of steam)... It just feels so good and I definitely feel as though the "bulking" helps.

I am a little concerned about my gut as it looks bigger but I haven't noticed the pants fitting any snugger and that's the real test.

My weight has gone up a lot on the scale, I don't really LOOK more muscular though.. my hunch is at least some of it is water weight.

It will be nice to weigh myself on an empty stomach and calculate my bf to know exactly where I am.. which I will do Saturday morning.

That's my story.

 

[Lifterforlife]

No better feeling than to make a new PR, is there bro! Especially one that you have been working for for a long time.

Keep a close "eye" on that bigger gut. Monitor yourself and don't let it get out of hand. Makes for a pretty dam spartan diet if you let it go too much.

What is the old saying, "those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it".

Congrats on your workout.

 

[Kabeetz]

OK, the bulking has been going great. I've been getting a few compliments that I look bigger and that's the best kind of motivation.

I've been bulking for now 5 weeks. I had a tremendous 5 x 5 workout this morning (I go on a sat/mon/wed 5x5 schedule) and hit pr's of 195 x 3bench, 260 x 3 squat and 175 x 3 barbell rows.

I also just noticed this morning that the pants are starting to fit tighter for sure. I am thinking I should gradually start a 3-4 week cut this saturday (which begins my workout week), or should i keep bulking for a week or two?

In terms of the cut, I am curious as the best way to approach it with muscle preservation in mind... I am currently doing 2 HIIT cardio sessions of 30 minutes a week.

I figure the first week I should go to 3? perhaps 4?

And then swap out the milk for water out of all protein shakes, and cut my breakfast from 2 eggs plus 4 whites to 1 egg plus 2 whites and lower my before bed portion of cottage cheese.

I am currently consuming about 1.5 pounds of chicken/beef/turkey breast per day and will play with that # after 1 or two weeks with that, I don't want to cause a rapid caloric deficit right away obviously.

I am extremely excited to see my net gains once the cutting phase is completed and I expect to get in another combo in anticipation of my August 1st vacation.

Does all this sound about right?

I have a couple 5x5 questions also, I will ask those on the weight lifting board I guess