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How Do We Know We're Not Living Inside A Massive Computer Simulation?
By Clay Dillow
10.11.2012 at 11:26 AM
Living In The Lattice
Beane et al via arXiv
A team of researchers is going down the theoretical rabbit hole with a test to find out if our universe is nothing more than a computer program.
We don't want to alarm you, but there's a distinct possibility that our universe is nothing more than a huge computer simulation, that we're all living in The Matrix, and none of this is real. But while stopping short of full-on human-machine warfare, a team of interested researchers at the University of Bonn is trying to see just how deep the rabbit hole goes by performing a measurement that should tell us if we're stuck in a computer simulation.
This notion is based on quantum chromodynamics, which is the idea that describes how the strong nuclear force binds quarks and gluons together into protons and neutrons--and thus binds everything else together. We're talking about very fundamental physics here, the process by which elementary particles form larger particles which form larger particles which form life, the universe, and everything.
Researchers have long sought to model quantum chromodynamics on supercomputers, but the problem is that these kinds of simulations take place at such a small scale and are so dazzlingly complicated that even the biggest supercomputers can only simulate an extremely small swath of our infinitely massive universe--something just a few femtometers across (a femtometer is one million nanometers, which is still really, really small).
But, such a simulation is also so elementary, so very fundamental to the construction of the universe, that it is basically a simulation of the universe itself. Which leads us to the question: how can we know that we are not living inside this very kind of simulation? (Spoon bends, mirror turns to liquid, mind blows, etc.).
Silas Beane and some colleagues at the University of Bonn think they've come up with a way to measure the universe in such a way that we can know if we're living in a giant sim. This is all based on a value known as the Greisen-Zatsepin-Kuzmin cut off, or GZK. In the world of theoretical physics, things can more or less be limitless, but in computers things have to have limits. This is one of the problems with these kinds of simulations; the laws of physics have to be placed in a constrained, 3-D space--a lattice--that is limited by the nature of the computer sim.
Beane and his colleagues are exploring whether or not these lattices alter the physical processes we have observed in the universe. Specifically, they are looking at high energy processes, which get smaller and smaller the more energetic they become. Beane and company have found that these 3-D lattices impose a limit on the amount of energy these processes can have, because nothing occurring within the sim can be smaller than the lattice itself. So, if we are living inside of a computer program, there should be a fundamental limit within the spectrum of high energy particles, like cosmic ray particles.
And there is. That's the GZK cut off. It's well-studied and well-defined, and occurs because over time and distance cosmic ray particles interact with the cosmic microwave background and lose energy. So, if Beane and his friends are correct, we can measure cosmic ray particles--using existing technology--to see if they behave in the way theoretical physics says they should, or if they behave as we might expect them to in a computer simulation. If we found that the cosmic waves behave in a particular way, we would basically be able to see the construction of the simulation lattice--and confirm that we are indeed living in a computer simulation.
Of course, this exercise only works if our robotic overseers built their simulation the same way we would. Then again, they would, wouldn't they? After all, we created the robots in our image, and the robots created The Program. Possibly. If our sentient robotic conquerers built their Matrix differently than Beane and company predict, or at a vastly smaller scale, we still won't see the simulation around us, and we'll continue to go on about our insignificant simulated lives blissfully unaware.
[Technology Review]
By Clay Dillow
10.11.2012 at 11:26 AM
Living In The Lattice
Beane et al via arXiv
A team of researchers is going down the theoretical rabbit hole with a test to find out if our universe is nothing more than a computer program.
We don't want to alarm you, but there's a distinct possibility that our universe is nothing more than a huge computer simulation, that we're all living in The Matrix, and none of this is real. But while stopping short of full-on human-machine warfare, a team of interested researchers at the University of Bonn is trying to see just how deep the rabbit hole goes by performing a measurement that should tell us if we're stuck in a computer simulation.
This notion is based on quantum chromodynamics, which is the idea that describes how the strong nuclear force binds quarks and gluons together into protons and neutrons--and thus binds everything else together. We're talking about very fundamental physics here, the process by which elementary particles form larger particles which form larger particles which form life, the universe, and everything.
Researchers have long sought to model quantum chromodynamics on supercomputers, but the problem is that these kinds of simulations take place at such a small scale and are so dazzlingly complicated that even the biggest supercomputers can only simulate an extremely small swath of our infinitely massive universe--something just a few femtometers across (a femtometer is one million nanometers, which is still really, really small).
But, such a simulation is also so elementary, so very fundamental to the construction of the universe, that it is basically a simulation of the universe itself. Which leads us to the question: how can we know that we are not living inside this very kind of simulation? (Spoon bends, mirror turns to liquid, mind blows, etc.).
Silas Beane and some colleagues at the University of Bonn think they've come up with a way to measure the universe in such a way that we can know if we're living in a giant sim. This is all based on a value known as the Greisen-Zatsepin-Kuzmin cut off, or GZK. In the world of theoretical physics, things can more or less be limitless, but in computers things have to have limits. This is one of the problems with these kinds of simulations; the laws of physics have to be placed in a constrained, 3-D space--a lattice--that is limited by the nature of the computer sim.
Beane and his colleagues are exploring whether or not these lattices alter the physical processes we have observed in the universe. Specifically, they are looking at high energy processes, which get smaller and smaller the more energetic they become. Beane and company have found that these 3-D lattices impose a limit on the amount of energy these processes can have, because nothing occurring within the sim can be smaller than the lattice itself. So, if we are living inside of a computer program, there should be a fundamental limit within the spectrum of high energy particles, like cosmic ray particles.
And there is. That's the GZK cut off. It's well-studied and well-defined, and occurs because over time and distance cosmic ray particles interact with the cosmic microwave background and lose energy. So, if Beane and his friends are correct, we can measure cosmic ray particles--using existing technology--to see if they behave in the way theoretical physics says they should, or if they behave as we might expect them to in a computer simulation. If we found that the cosmic waves behave in a particular way, we would basically be able to see the construction of the simulation lattice--and confirm that we are indeed living in a computer simulation.
Of course, this exercise only works if our robotic overseers built their simulation the same way we would. Then again, they would, wouldn't they? After all, we created the robots in our image, and the robots created The Program. Possibly. If our sentient robotic conquerers built their Matrix differently than Beane and company predict, or at a vastly smaller scale, we still won't see the simulation around us, and we'll continue to go on about our insignificant simulated lives blissfully unaware.
[Technology Review]
Well, God organized and designed this plain of existence so we can gain experience and knowledge only obtainable through a mortal existence.
So, much of the concept of life being a simulation isn't completely absurd, just that this life being a computer program is stupid.
Science advanced beyond our understanding is what is the base for the design of the universe, and mathematics are the language of science so mathematics is used heavily in the design and maintenance of the development and progression of the universe, and by default, our world and our existence.
God is an incomprehensibly smart dude that has the ability to control these things. He's technologically advanced beyond our understanding.
Athiests say science is the only explanation for this life. That's completely correct, however, they dismiss God because they don't realize he's just an extremely smart being that operates through logical processes that have formed the universe and our existence. He's not a magic fairy that waves a magic wand, he's simply an advanced being, physical in appearance similar to us, that understands and has the ability to control physics, just as man on earth, little by little is learning how to push the limits and achieve what we previously thought was not possible or was not even a figment of our imagination in times past. Logically, over the course of eternity and infinite time, man will conclusively arrive to a state of technological advancement that equals that of infinite knowledge and ability, which is where God has already arrived.
Just think, 100 years ago, imagine someone even conjuring the idea of a handheld device that grants you access to virtually every piece of history and knowledge that man has experienced and developed. A smart phone is an extremely worthy achievement. 100 years from now, what will technology bring? What about 1000 years. We don't even have the ability to comprehend the possibilities.
God arrived at that point, and is continuing to expand and progress through his family, which is us, his children.
We are very real, this life is very real, and man's purpose is strongly defined.
So, much of the concept of life being a simulation isn't completely absurd, just that this life being a computer program is stupid.
Science advanced beyond our understanding is what is the base for the design of the universe, and mathematics are the language of science so mathematics is used heavily in the design and maintenance of the development and progression of the universe, and by default, our world and our existence.
God is an incomprehensibly smart dude that has the ability to control these things. He's technologically advanced beyond our understanding.
Athiests say science is the only explanation for this life. That's completely correct, however, they dismiss God because they don't realize he's just an extremely smart being that operates through logical processes that have formed the universe and our existence. He's not a magic fairy that waves a magic wand, he's simply an advanced being, physical in appearance similar to us, that understands and has the ability to control physics, just as man on earth, little by little is learning how to push the limits and achieve what we previously thought was not possible or was not even a figment of our imagination in times past. Logically, over the course of eternity and infinite time, man will conclusively arrive to a state of technological advancement that equals that of infinite knowledge and ability, which is where God has already arrived.
Just think, 100 years ago, imagine someone even conjuring the idea of a handheld device that grants you access to virtually every piece of history and knowledge that man has experienced and developed. A smart phone is an extremely worthy achievement. 100 years from now, what will technology bring? What about 1000 years. We don't even have the ability to comprehend the possibilities.
God arrived at that point, and is continuing to expand and progress through his family, which is us, his children.
We are very real, this life is very real, and man's purpose is strongly defined.
DaBuff, I love you and your LDS ways, but this made me LOL.
I love you too
BTW, what I said is not something that is taught at a LDS Church.
If you go with the assumption that God is real, I find my post to be rather logical. He's a dude that started his existence long before us and he has advanced in knowledge, technology, etc. to the point he learned how to actually create/organize matter into what we currently understand the universe to be, and to sustain himself in an immortal body. We are doing medicine for anti aging, battling cancer, and all manner of physical imperfection. We are just at the infancy of these developments. God has the knowledge of how to sustain a body in it's perfect form without end. Is that not what medical science is striving to achieve?
We can communicate with people on the other side of the world with the tap of a finger, and even make friends with a degree of emotional tie or talk crap to people we've never met before. The fact that man can communicate with God through prayer and feel his spirit and presence doesn't seem so outlandish given this perspective.
I know it sounds like some crazy crap, but I'm trying to explore these concepts outside the box a bit.
I couldn't expect any more from you, Woody.
I can see the point about God being an ancient alien of some kind and we are just some grand experiment.I love you too
BTW, what I said is not something that is taught at a LDS Church.
If you go with the assumption that God is real, I find my post to be rather logical. He's a dude that started his existence long before us and he has advanced in knowledge, technology, etc. to the point he learned how to actually create/organize matter into what we currently understand the universe to be, and to sustain himself in an immortal body. We are doing medicine for anti aging, battling cancer, and all manner of physical imperfection. We are just at the infancy of these developments. God has the knowledge of how to sustain a body in it's perfect form without end. Is that not what medical science is striving to achieve?
We can communicate with people on the other side of the world with the tap of a finger, and even make friends with a degree of emotional tie or talk crap to people we've never met before. The fact that man can communicate with God through prayer and feel his spirit and presence doesn't seem so outlandish given this perspective.
I know it sounds like some crazy crap, but I'm trying to explore these concepts outside the box a bit.
However, the part that I have a challenge with is when people start talking about how they are the "chosen" people and start killing each other or denying treatment in his / her / it's name.
Fault lies in the imperfection of man, not of the reality and truths of God.
God gives every man the right to choose their own way, which is of key importance to this existence. Unfortunately many choose evil and claim that their source is divine. I'm right with you on that one. The fact that so much wrong doing is claimed to come from God or done in his name is definitely grounds for many to link man's evil to the name of God
and be "turned off" to the idea of accepting God or having any interest at all. That's completely understandable.
In the end, we know through scripture all of the positive and good things God wants us to do, and striving to be good people is what we are supposed to do. The amount of hypocrisy that goes on with this is overwhelming, but it's best to put it aside and make sure that us and our loved ones are headed in the right direction. Family effort and support is key to achieving it.
zeosim
New member
I love you too
BTW, what I said is not something that is taught at a LDS Church.
If you go with the assumption that God is real, I find my post to be rather logical. He's a dude that started his existence long before us and he has advanced in knowledge, technology, etc. to the point he learned how to actually create/organize matter into what we currently understand the universe to be, and to sustain himself in an immortal body. We are doing medicine for anti aging, battling cancer, and all manner of physical imperfection. We are just at the infancy of these developments. God has the knowledge of how to sustain a body in it's perfect form without end. Is that not what medical science is striving to achieve?
We can communicate with people on the other side of the world with the tap of a finger, and even make friends with a degree of emotional tie or talk crap to people we've never met before. The fact that man can communicate with God through prayer and feel his spirit and presence doesn't seem so outlandish given this perspective.
I know it sounds like some crazy crap, but I'm trying to explore these concepts outside the box a bit.
This is the most logical explanation of god I have ever heard props
I love you too
BTW, what I said is not something that is taught at a LDS Church.
If you go with the assumption that God is real, I find my post to be rather logical. He's a dude that started his existence long before us and he has advanced in knowledge, technology, etc. to the point he learned how to actually create/organize matter into what we currently understand the universe to be, and to sustain himself in an immortal body. We are doing medicine for anti aging, battling cancer, and all manner of physical imperfection. We are just at the infancy of these developments. God has the knowledge of how to sustain a body in it's perfect form without end. Is that not what medical science is striving to achieve?
We can communicate with people on the other side of the world with the tap of a finger, and even make friends with a degree of emotional tie or talk crap to people we've never met before. The fact that man can communicate with God through prayer and feel his spirit and presence doesn't seem so outlandish given this perspective.
I know it sounds like some crazy crap, but I'm trying to explore these concepts outside the box a bit.
Holy fuck you're ridiculous
Obama said you didnt build shit
Barack = Morpheus
I'd love to hear your explanation for everything.
Wait, here it comes....
Matter came to be all by itself, right? And it just happened to form the universe, perfectly place the earth inside this galaxy for life to be able to live, then life spontaneously formed itself with a working DNA code, albeit simple, and naturally evolved to what we have now and no higher intelligence had anything to do with it.
Sounds like it's all figured out then.
Either that or Dumbledore the magic wizard made everything, right?
Infinite monkey theory:
If there are a large enough number of monkeys banging on typewriters, eventually one will type out shakespeare
And so it goes why we have a perfectly situated earth that can sustain life out of the trillions of celestial bodies in the universe
If there are a large enough number of monkeys banging on typewriters, eventually one will type out shakespeare
And so it goes why we have a perfectly situated earth that can sustain life out of the trillions of celestial bodies in the universe
The reason that theory needs to be defined by infinity is because the probability of it happening is infinitely small, translation, it is not a random occurence that happened out of sheer chance just one time.
I find it ludicrous to assume that a basic single cell organism was formed on its own, and not only did it magically become alive, it magically had a code that by chance came together that allowed it to take in energy and get rid of waste AND it could multiply itself, mutate and adapt to the environment.
As basic of a lifeform you can get, all of those things can't possibly have come together and function by chance and actually work.
"Oh, but that's the only way it could have happened"
Bullcrap, no it didn't.
The only way even the simplest of life can come together and function properly is if something organized it to be so.
*ebony*
New member
Just because you don't understand it now, doesn't mean it the work of God. If people always thought like you and attributed the unknown to the miracles of God, we would still be in the stone age. And here is the danger from this type of mindset, once you attribute something to having come from a higher power, you stop searching for other possibilities and explanations and we would not progress. What if someone never doubted that humans weren't chilling with dinosaurs 9,000 years ago?
There is no reason to think that your questions that you attribute to God's handiwork wont be answered in 10 or 20 yrs from now as history has shown many times.
Bwahahalolololololpwnedlololol
You completely missed my point.
What I'm saying is that the unknowns are things that we will eventually find out, and God has already found it out and that's why he was able to put us here, because he already figured out, on a scientific level, how to organize and control things we have very little understanding of right now.
From my perspective, education and knowledge are one of God's greatest powers and he wants us to pursue the same thing.
Just because you attribute a miracle or an inexplicable event to God doesn't mean you automatically don't try to figure out how things work. That's retarded logic.
You think all scientists in all different fields trying to develop mechanical, biological, electronic, astronomical, etc. technology are all athiests?
The funny thing is, what I said is exactly what had to have happened for life to have started by chance. It's called the Theory of Abiogenesis.
It's complete bullcrap.
You can't explain how inert, lifeless matter formed into a living thing with a DNA code that instructs itself how to consume and process energy as well as divide and mutate into more complex life forms. That couldn't have possibly happened.
It takes a hell of a lot more faith to believe in the infinitely small probability that life was spontaneous, than it does to assume that a more advanced life form than ourselves exists and put us here on earth. Why wouldn't such a being exist? We're here, and so obviously elsewhere in the universe there is intelligent life, and they have what is potentially an infinite amount more time to have developed technology to the point that they are able to do what God said he has done. What's so hard to understand about that?
What I find to be complete arrogant is to assume that man figured it all out, only to redefine theory a few years later, again and again.
Just because a new discovery is made and we are able to explain it through calculations and written language doesn't mean that God isn't real. It just opens the door to the next level of questions to go further into the understanding of things that God knew about billions of years ago.
Biological scientists label much of DNA as "junk" because they can't explain it or don't know of its function. Eventually they will understand it all and have a more refined theory of life's evolution as a result. That doesn't mean God isn't real, it means we aren't as smart as we think we are = arrogance.
We have a few hundred thousand pieces of a quadrillion piece puzzle, and scientists are bold to assert they know the whole picture. They are bullshitting themselves and everybody else.
*ebony*
New member
Thats how Carl Sagan did it. And by fog you mean sweet herbs right?
I did an extra credit assignment for my astronomy professor once, tracking the moon and keeping a data log for a space of a month. Once you stare at the night sky every day for only a few days, you can never be under a starlit sky every time and not just look up and marvel at it.
zeosim
New member
The sweetest herbs
*ebony*
New member
nice, we could def chill together.
It would be fun to talk about how cool or uncool it would be to be living in a reality like the movie, the matrix. But its too early to on with research to take this seriously. finding computer codes in our universe similar to those found in computer browsers isnt enough to conclude we live in a giant computer simulation but this is fascinating nonetheless.
BTW, choosing the red pill would be cooler I think but I need to give this serious thought.
zeosim
New member
nice, we could def chill together.
It would be fun to talk about how cool or uncool it would be to be living in a reality like the movie, the matrix. But its too early to on with research to take this seriously. finding computer codes in our universe similar to those found in computer browsers isnt enough to conclude we live in a giant computer simulation but this is fascinating nonetheless.
BTW, choosing the red pill would be cooler I think but I need to give this serious thought.
Sounds good, Nothing better than to sesh and have a deep intellectual conversation. Maybe I should become a philosopher
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