Lovely proof Socialized Medicine doesn't work

[Razorguns]

Check out this new poll of Canadians. What a surprise -- they're NOT happy with the system. So much for the big fans of socialized medicine. What these fans fail to realize is that as population INCREASES, and budgets DECREASE -- you got a DISASTER waiting to happen. Even tho that's just *one* of the things wrong with socialized medicine. :

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2004/08/16/585133.html

Medicare rated poorly by 41%

CONFIDENCE DOWN: CMA REPORT

By SARAH GREEN, TORONTO SUN

CANADIANS ARE giving the country's health-care system a lower grade than last year, according to the Canadian Medical Association's 2004 national report card. The report card found 41% of Canadians gave health care poor grades, with 11% flunking medicare. Last year, just 33% of Canadians handed medicare poor grades of C and F.

While 59% of Canadians gave medicare As and Bs, it's an 8% drop from last year's survey when 67% handed out good grades. The majority of Canadians -- 41% -- gave medicare a B.

"This report card magnifies the erosion in our health-care system," said the CMA's president, Dr. Sunil Patel, a 30-year family physician from Gimli, Man. "It magnifies the serious lack of confidence by Canadians in our health-care system."

The survey found Canadians want more money spent on health care, but they want to ensure it is money well spent, Patel said.

Nine out of 10 Canadians believe the federal government can afford to inject more money into health care -- and 72% believe Ottawa isn't paying its fair share now.

MORE FEDERAL SUPPORT

And 78% say the provinces can afford to boost health spending.

More than two-thirds of Canadians say new federal health dollars should come with conditions.

"It's not just a matter of giving more money to the provinces, but with strings attached -- something the premiers have been balking at," Patel said.

The survey of 1,057 Canadians also found that less than half believe the health-care system will improve for their children and grandchildren.

"They've seen elections come and go. They've seen meetings by the lake ...They've not seen any concrete solutions," Patel said.

A majority of Canadians -- 83% -- say a slice of the GST should fund health care to ensure stable, long-term funding.

"Canadians are smart...They want some predictability," he said.

Canadians credited doctors, nurses, hospitals and other health-care providers with keeping medicare afloat while governments played political football, Patel said. "They gave high grades to health-care providers," Patel said. "They gave failing grades to the federal and provincial governments."

The CMA is holding its annual meeting in Toronto until Wednesday, with speeches today from Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty and federal Health Minister Ujjal Dosanjh.

 

[Razorguns]

24 THOUSAND Canadians die in canadian hospitals after being admitted with preventable problems. That's a NICE statistic to be proud of. Great to live in a country where almost no one can afford to sue:

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2004/08/16/585131.html

Doctor: Hospital care is still safe

By Sarah Green, Toronto Sun

CANADA'S HOSPITALS are among the safest in the world, even though as many as 24,000 patients die every year after a preventable injury or complication. Dr. Peter Norton, co- author of the recent Canadian Adverse Events Study, said 7.5% of Canadians suffer an unintended injury or complication, resulting in death, disability or a prolonged stay in hospital. It adds up to one million days in hospital beds a year.

Norton, speaking yesterday at the Canadian Medical Association's annual meeting in Toronto, said not all adverse events are mistakes. They can include allergic reactions to drugs or complications from surgery.

"I don't think we should say the hospitals are killing people. It's not true," Norton, head of family medicine at the University of Calgary, said.

"If you need a hospital, it's the very best place to be ... If we had no hospitals, most people who come to hospital would be dead or have a disability," he said.

According to the report, the risk of death from being admitted to hospital is one in 165, making it more perilous than logging, rock climbing for 25 hours, coal mining and bungee jumping.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

dude, canada's experience is unnecessary to prove this, anyone who has ever received military or VA level health care already knows this.

take away the competition, and you take away the improvements.

Duh.

 

[manny78]

Canada is the living proof socialized medicine is a nightmare. You're trying to put everyone on the same foot so guess what ? Costs you a lot, income taxes must be increased, public servants see the flow of new money coming so they ask for raises, turns out it costs more than expected to run so again you're facing a dilemna: raise taxes or just give 3rd world service ? Well our govt. chose the last options.

What I find funny is that you keep hearing politicians telling how our system is equal and no matter who you are, you get an A+ service. BS. You don't know anyone, you get shit, you know someone or pay big buck, you get 1st class service. Been there in april and can tell you that since I had no medicare card and was being issued a bill, I was taken away from the daily misery oher patients have to go through.

 

[Mr. dB]

24 THOUSAND Canadians die in canadian hospitals after being admitted with preventable problems. That's a NICE statistic to be proud of. Great to live in a country where almost no one can afford to sue:

I wonder how that compares, per capita, with US figures?

 

[Robert Jan]

Belgium is doing an amazing job with s. medicine.

Small fucking country though. maybe not relevant to the USA

 

[bluepeter]

The most expensive in the world, the American healthcare system is also riddled with problems and contradictions. In short, the American system is a work in progress, driven by a disparate array of interests with two goals that are often in conflict: providing healthcare to the sick, and generating income for the persons and organizations that assume the financial risk. The government's annual bill for healthcare spending -- $3,925 per person -- significantly exceeds that of other nations, because physicians' salaries and hospital costs are higher, and medical technology is more widely used. The transfer of funds among federal and state Medicare and Medicaid programs is another important component of national healthcare spending. The American healthcare system is at once the most expensive and the most inadequate system in the developed world.


The New England Journal of Medicine January 7, 1999;340:48, 70-76.


COMMENT: What do we get for the most expensive health care in the world? The absolute best system in the entire world for treating acute surgical emergencies. Beyond that, the system is an unmitigated failure at treating chronic illness. Traditional medicine clearly kills more people than it saves. Prescribed drugs are the fourth leading cause of death and the first three, heart attacks, cancer and strokes and facilitated by physician ignorance of foundational concepts of nutritional physiology.






Every country has its problems with providing healthcare.

 

[bluepeter]

Diagnosis: Standards in American healthcare are too low in four primary areas. What evidence is there of that:

Customer Satisfaction—just ask the trial attorneys
Quality—4% of admissions are injured or killed, 100,000 deaths per year
Economics—Costs out of control; leading cause of personal bankruptcy
People—One of the highest turnover rates of American industries

 

[bluepeter]

Here's an interesting and sad statistic: 46% of all personal bankruptcies involve a medical reason or a large medical debt. The group at particular risk is people in their fifties or early sixties—not eligible for Medicare yet, but vulnerable to layoffs and serious illness.

You may also know that the US spends more than any other country on health care. In fact, they spend about 40% more per person than Switzerland, the second highest spending country, and more than twice the average of other industrialized countries. This amounts to more than $4000 per person per year. What you may not know is just how poor the value they are getting for the money is. When you look at measures of health, the US is dead last of the top-ten spending countries. In fact, whether it’s measured as infant mortality, life expectancy, or years of life lost, the US is far below other countries that spend much less. They ranked 37th in a 2000 WHO study of 219 countries.

 

[Testosterone boy]

200,000/people per year die due to negligence in US hospitals.


Take care of yourselves.

 

[bluepeter]

CANADA

Statistics:
Total population: 31,271,000
GDP per capita (Intl $, 2001): 29,235
Life expectancy at birth m/f (years): 77.2/82.3
Healthy life expectancy at birth m/f (years): 70.1/74.0
Child mortality m/f (per 1000): 6/5
Adult mortality m/f (per 1000): 95/58
Total health expenditure per capita (Intl $, 2001): 2,792
Total health expenditure as % of GDP (2001): 9.5
Figures are for 2002 unless indicated. Source: The world health report 2003

UNITED STATES


Statistics:
Total population: 291,038,000
GDP per capita (Intl $, 2001): 35,182
Life expectancy at birth m/f (years): 74.6/79.8
Healthy life expectancy at birth m/f (years): 67.2/71.3
Child mortality m/f (per 1000): 9/7
Adult mortality m/f (per 1000): 140/83
Total health expenditure per capita (Intl $, 2001): 4,887
Total health expenditure as % of GDP (2001): 13.9
Figures are for 2002 unless indicated. Source: The world health report 2003

 

[Badbart]

Our medical system has so many complex problems with medical care its going to be a tough one to fix. It’s not as simple as socialize or not socialize. We need to ask ourselves why has the cost risen so much in recent years? Socializing won’t lower cost and socializing probably would raise the cost and we would pay the cost in taxes instead of insurance. But we the greatest medicine, doctors and hospitals in the world.
Other then law suits and the enormous cost of malpractice insurance. I think a big reason the cost is so high is we can now treat patients that we could not have helped 20 years ago, but that treatment cost is enormous. A good example is a close family member of mine had liver cancer. He had 3 operations and finally a transplant and the cost for this was $900,000. The doctors saved his life but a enormous cost to the insurer. And this cost is passed on to the insured. 20 years ago this type of cancer would not have been transplanted and he would have died.
The anti-rejection medicine cost 12K a year alone. But how is a company suppose to develop a drug for a small amount of people and not charge a lot of money for the drug? Without profit incentive many drugs and surgical techniques are not going to get developed.
But I have no good solutions to this ever widening problem. Tort reform would be a good place to start but this is not going to solve a whole problem. We need to lower the medical cost and insurance will be cheaper allowing more people top afford coverage.

 

[coverguy]

dude, canada's experience is unnecessary to prove this, anyone who has ever received military or VA level health care already knows this.

take away the competition, and you take away the improvements.

Duh.

As true as it gets. As a Marine I had the honor of this experience on more than one occassion. It sucks!!!

 

[Badbart]

CANADA

Statistics:
Total population: 31,271,000
GDP per capita (Intl $, 2001): 29,235
Life expectancy at birth m/f (years): 77.2/82.3
Healthy life expectancy at birth m/f (years): 70.1/74.0
Child mortality m/f (per 1000): 6/5
Adult mortality m/f (per 1000): 95/58
Total health expenditure per capita (Intl $, 2001): 2,792
Total health expenditure as % of GDP (2001): 9.5
Figures are for 2002 unless indicated. Source: The world health report 2003

UNITED STATES


Statistics:
Total population: 291,038,000
GDP per capita (Intl $, 2001): 35,182
Life expectancy at birth m/f (years): 74.6/79.8
Healthy life expectancy at birth m/f (years): 67.2/71.3
Child mortality m/f (per 1000): 9/7
Adult mortality m/f (per 1000): 140/83
Total health expenditure per capita (Intl $, 2001): 4,887
Total health expenditure as % of GDP (2001): 13.9
Figures are for 2002 unless indicated. Source: The world health report 2003

The United States is one of the fattiest and lazy group of countries this doesn’t surprise me.

 

[Razorguns]

Ask any Canadian if they have access to new expensive powerful US drugs. They don't. Canada won't pay for it. Canada's response when you show articles on awesome new drugs just released on the market and want them to pay for it? "Tough shit".

 

[PIGEON-RAT]

Belgium is doing an amazing job with s. medicine.

Small fucking country though. maybe not relevant to the USA

Yeah, it seems to work on small scales in places like belgium, denmark and some other euro countries. But those countries don't have tons of people immigrating to them. Hell, Denmark pretty much doesn't even allow immigration. In a larger country like Canada you have a much greater freerider problem and it makes a significant difference.

 

[the nature boy]

Yeah, it seems to work on small scales in places like belgium, denmark and some other euro countries. But those countries don't have tons of people immigrating to them. Hell, Denmark pretty much doesn't even allow immigration. In a larger country like Canada you have a much greater freerider problem and it makes a significant difference.

I totally agree. Socialized medicine will not work in the States. The medical system would crumble. Fix the immigration issue and then it might be safe to talk about some basic services for those who have lost jobs or someshit. Even though, immigrants still use the Emergency Room, and that cost comes back to me and you.

 

[Razorguns]

Exactly. Belgium doesn't have millions of people immigrating for the sole purpose of getting transplants and curing fatal diseases. That alone can bring ANY socialized system to it's knees. Imagine if the US has socialized medicine. It would be suicide. Every mexican with cancer would have NOTHING to lose by trying to get here and getting free treatment. It'd destroy the US healthcare system overnight.

That and the fact highly skilled Canadian doctors going south for the bucks doesn't help matters in Canada either.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

This thread has gotten amazingly ignorant; I don't have the time to post about the true flaws of US healthcare, but they are legion.

Socializing, by its nature, would be worse, to be discussed, soon, I promise.

In the interest of discussion, how would you brosephs feel about socialized medicine for all Americans under 25?

 

[strongsmartsexy]

This thread has gotten amazingly ignorant; I don't have the time to post about the true flaws of US healthcare, but they are legion.

Socializing, by its nature, would be worse, to be discussed, soon, I promise.

In the interest of discussion, how would you brosephs feel about socialized medicine for all Americans under 25?

NO!

Here is one of the many things that irks me about our health insurance system, the primary money maker. I recently had a switch of carriers. Things that were provided before are no longer provided by this new carrier. The doctors office sends me to get tests done from a lab. I go. Now I owe the lab almost $1000 because they're considered not in this new carriers network. The doctor's office didn't check. The lab didn't check. The carrier doesn't care. It doesn't cost the doctor's office or the lab any money for them to make a mistake. If they had to pay the cost of failing to do their jobs correctly this mistake would be far less frequent.

 

[Razorguns]

If they had to pay the cost of failing to do their jobs correctly this mistake would be far less frequent.

That's why i always refuse to submit my SSN to any doctors. They need a SSN to go after people through credit agencies. I'd tell 'em to screw off. You didn't agree to any costs verbally or in writing.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Every country has its problems with providing healthcare.

Doctors, nurses etc provide healthcare.

Countries do not.

It is a bastardization of the democractic process that the masses have voted for rich people to take care of them.

 

[Mr. dB]

Total health expenditure per capita (Intl $, 2001): 4,887
Total health expenditure as % of GDP (2001): 13.9

One question -- is this the total amount of money paid, or the amount of gov't TAX money paid, for healthcare?

 

[Mr. dB]

Doctors, nurses etc provide healthcare.

Countries do not.

Correct. Countries provide money, collected from taxpayers, to pay for the healthcare provided by the doctors and nurses.

 

[bluepeter]

Doctors, nurses etc provide healthcare.

Countries do not.

It is a bastardization of the democractic process that the masses have voted for rich people to take care of them.

Semantics. Not what I meant to say. I'm not even saying that socialized medicine is the answer. I am of the opinion that it is better than elitist healthcare but I am aware this opinion is not shared by you and many others.

All I'm doing in this thread is posting statistics that make Razorguns' constant bashing of Canadian healthcare look stupid when it is held alongside the US model. I find it hilarious that nobody other than Mr. dB seems to care or have a comment about them.

Razor comes on here with his usual pompous, arrogant bullshit and I fucking own him with statistics and he has no retort other than to continue his nonsensical rants.

 

[bluepeter]

One question -- is this the total amount of money paid, or the amount of gov't TAX money paid, for healthcare?

I can't find an answer to that bor. I would assume that it could only be the amount of gov't tax money paid but I could be wrong.

 

[jerseyart]

Your statistics are meaningless Blue. They lack context.

For example comparing life expectancy is absurd if the context is health care. Our murder rate is substantially higher for example. Being shot in the head is not a fault of our health care system.

The US has the best pre term delivered health care in the world. most countries (I don't know for certain if Canada is one) don't even include premature birth deaths as part of their infant mortality rate statistics. We do, and save sunstantially more than any other country in the world. But then it is used absurdly to try to portray our infant mortality rates as high. The other problem with that stat is that it ignores the fact that the majority of those deaths are related to drug use by the mother. It isnt a lack of health care, but a lack of good sense and decency on the part of the moms which inflates that figure dramatically.

Another is the absurd comparison of comparative spending. Canada has a one payer system, the government. The US allows for individual choice, which also allows for far more procedures being done, and more elective procedures as well. Naturally our spending will be higher. In Canada and much of Europe an individual simply gets placed on a waiting list for certain types of care. That doesnt happen here. You spend only what you budget for the care.

 

[bluepeter]

Your statistics are meaningless Blue. They lack context.

For example comparing life expectancy is absurd if the context is health care. Our murder rate is substantially higher for example. Being shot in the head is not a fault of our health care system.

The US has the best pre term delivered health care in the world. most countries (I don't know for certain if Canada is one) don't even include premature birth deaths as part of their infant mortality rate statistics. We do, and save sunstantially more than any other country in the world. But then it is used absurdly to try to portray our infant mortality rates as high. The other problem with that stat is that it ignores the fact that the majority of those deaths are related to drug use by the mother. It isnt a lack of health care, but a lack of good sense and decency on the part of the moms which inflates that figure dramatically.

Another is the absurd comparison of comparative spending. Canada has a one payer system, the government. The US allows for individual choice, which also allows for far more procedures being done, and more elective procedures as well. Naturally our spending will be higher. In Canada and much of Europe an individual simply gets placed on a waiting list for certain types of care. That doesnt happen here. You spend only what you budget for the care.

Thank you Jersey, while I disagree, I appreciate you at least taking the time to comment.

P.S. - Canada includes premie deaths in its infant mortality rate.

 

[jerseyart]

Blue,

I'm not sure what there is to disagree with frankly. It isn't a matter of opinion.

Comparing a rationed system to a free market system doesn't hold water.

Frankly Americans would never stand for the type of health care provided in Canada and other countries. There are definite issues with the way health care is delivered in this country, but people would be up in arms at the notion that something wouldn't be done, or they would have to wait on some list, for important procedures to be performed.l

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Correct. Countries provide money, collected from taxpayers, to pay for the healthcare provided by the doctors and nurses.

Yeah, if you're a socialist.

But if you have any respect for the service that the doctors and nurses provide, you'd support a free market price for those services, not a top-down imposition.

It's the logical equivalent of saying, "You will all have a state-issued automobile".

We expect automakers to set prices based on supply, demand....you know, economic forces. WHy not health care providers? Why do you think we have the right to demand that doctors and nurses work for other than free market salaries, but automakers can charge whatever the market demands?

Seems unfair to the providers....but then again, your people are OK with that, because you just enjoy using the tyranny of the majority to pass the bill on to rich people.

bluepeter - it's not semantics, it's theft (of tax dollars) and indentured servitude (of doctors and nurses).

 

[bluepeter]

Yeah, if you're a socialist.

But if you have any respect for the service that the doctors and nurses provide, you'd support a free market price for those services, not a top-down imposition.

It's the logical equivalent of saying, "You will all have a state-issued automobile".

We expect automakers to set prices based on supply, demand....you know, economic forces. WHy not health care providers? Why do you think we have the right to demand that doctors and nurses work for other than free market salaries, but automakers can charge whatever the market demands?

Seems unfair to the providers....but then again, your people are OK with that, because you just enjoy using the tyranny of the majority to pass the bill on to rich people.

bluepeter - it's not semantics, it's theft (of tax dollars) and indentured servitude (of doctors and nurses).

Comparing ones health and welfare to an automobile is silly. I don't disagree with some of your assertions but I still think it is better than selling your services to the highest bidder so that only the elite and wealthy can afford top flight healthcare. I've yet to see a poor Canadian doctor, they may not make as much as some of their American counterparts but everyone I see drives a Mercedes, a BMW or some other likewise overpriced vehicle. Ask all of your countrymen about the prices they pay for prescription medication for their children. Don't think 99% would rather pay Canadian prices for the exact same thing?

As always, enjoy debating the subject with you. Much more stimulating than debating an expatriate moron with an axe to grind

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Comparing ones health and welfare to an automobile is silly. I don't disagree with some of your assertions but I still think it is better than selling your services to the highest bidder so that only the elite and wealthy can afford top flight healthcare. I've yet to see a poor Canadian doctor, they may not make as much as some of their American counterparts but everyone I see drives a Mercedes, a BMW or some other likewise overpriced vehicle. Ask all of your countrymen about the prices they pay for prescription medication for their children. Don't think 99% would rather pay Canadian prices for the exact same thing?

As always, enjoy debating the subject with you. Much more stimulating than debating an expatriate moron with an axe to grind

Agreed, always fun.

I'm going to post something thorough on this, which I think will answer a lot of questions for people,and you will find interesting to read.

 

[bluepeter]

Agreed, always fun.

I'm going to post something thorough on this, which I think will answer a lot of questions for people,and you will find interesting to read.

Great, look forward to it.

 

[Mr. dB]

In Canada and much of Europe an individual simply gets placed on a waiting list for certain types of care. That doesnt happen here. You spend only what you budget for the care.

Of course it happens here. I know people who have had to wait MONTHS for "elective" procedures such as knee or back surgery, living in pain in the meantime. Usually the wait is caused by arguments with the insurance company or HMO over what is going to be covered. This seems especially bad for Kaiser members in California.

 

[strongsmartsexy]

Of course it happens here. I know people who have had to wait MONTHS for "elective" procedures such as knee or back surgery, living in pain in the meantime. Usually the wait is caused by arguments with the insurance company or HMO over what is going to be covered. This seems especially bad for Kaiser members in California.

Or PacifiCare patients. It should be renamed ot HorriifiCare.

 

[Razorguns]

Razor comes on here with his usual pompous, arrogant bullshit and I fucking own him with statistics and he has no retort other than to continue his nonsensical rants.

You provide some statistics -- i provide you COMMENTARY of the prevailing mood of the CUSTOMERS (canadians).

Which is more important? Customers are always right is a mantra used in most of the world -- but in the socialist world -- the customer needs to be told what's right.

Your window-dressed insults hold no place alongside debates amongst intelligent educated people. Feel free to sit by the sidelines and enjoy your popsicle.

 

[ChefWide]

Or you could come to iceland and get it done the next week. Oh, did I mention that when I had surgery on my neck some months back to remove a 'problem' that it cost me $90. Total.

 

[bluepeter]

You provide some statistics -- i provide you COMMENTARY of the prevailing mood of the CUSTOMERS (canadians).

Which is more important? Customers are always right is a mantra used in most of the world -- but in the socialist world -- the customer needs to be told what's right.

Your window-dressed insults hold no place alongside debates amongst intelligent educated people. Feel free to sit by the sidelines and enjoy your popsicle.

Wow, you're an intellectual genius. Consider me pwned.

 

[Mr. dB]

You provide some statistics -- i provide you COMMENTARY of the prevailing mood of the CUSTOMERS (canadians).

"COMMENTARY" = spin

The numbers you cited did not jibe with the tone of the commentary. Looks to me like the majority of Canadians are pretty happy with it.

 

[Razorguns]

the majority of Canadians are pretty happy with it.

I wasn't referring to Canadians. Most people (including me) rarely go to the hospital and honestly -- i couldn't even comment on the US system since i haven't done anything more than a root canal.

The internet is full of experiences of the "customers" who've gone through the socialist system and experienced enough problems and shortfalls to fill up a big volume book. It's the critics (like noted in that article) that always go on the defensive, and try to silence the complainants as much as possible.

You'd have to get cancer, or need a transplant or a major disease, go through the system -- and post the results to fully comprehend it's shortfalls. Hopefully no one will have to go through such an expereince -- so all we can do is listen to those who have and listen to them.

 

[bluepeter]

I wasn't referring to Canadians. Most people (including me) rarely go to the hospital and honestly -- i couldn't even comment on the US system since i haven't done anything more than a root canal.

The internet is full of experiences of the "customers" who've gone through the socialist system and experienced enough problems and shortfalls to fill up a big volume book. It's the critics (like noted in that article) that always go on the defensive, and try to silence the complainants as much as possible.

You'd have to get cancer, or need a transplant or a major disease, go through the system -- and post the results to fully comprehend it's shortfalls. Hopefully no one will have to go through such an expereince -- so all we can do is listen to those who have and listen to them.

You weren't referring to Canadians? Your initial 2 posts on this thread mentioned Canada or Canadians 21 times. I'm still looking for a mention of any other country.

You can't comment on the US system because you've never used it yet you stridently claim over and over again how vastly superior it is to a 'socialized' system.

Does the poll in your article include a question such as 'would you prefer the healthcare ideology we currently operate under or a two-tier elitist system?'. No, of course it doesn't because 95% would say the former. That is one of the major sticking points in every election. In every single poll ever conducted in this country, Canadians have unequivocally rejected any suggestion of a two-tier system.

What your poll does show is that Canadians are not as happy with the system as they were before. There's a newsflash.

The Internet is full of the 'experiences' of those in the socialist system and how unhappy they are with it? Links please. Try and engage in facts rather than hyperbole and when you do actually post a link, think about what it is saying before you use it as your crusade ammunition.

Both myself and several relatives have had to use our 'socialist' system in some of the manners you have described. Never had a problem. Is it as quick and efficient as I would like (such as what it was 10 years ago)? No. However, I know that when my kids get sick, I can take them to my family doctor, their pediatrician, the local walk-in clinic or whatever and get immediate, quality diagnosis for them and I don't get a bill for one cent. If someone in my family contracts a grave illness, they will and always have been looked after professionally with excellent results.

Now you go think about the 40 million + Americans that do not have health insurance and imagine if it was your child. What would you do?

 

[Razorguns]

I don't *need* to use a system in order to form an opinion on it by listening to OTHERS who *have* gone through it. I don't need to commit a crime to know that life in jail sucks.

Where do you get this 95% would prefer the socialist system? Canada's healthcare system has it's supporters and critics, but 95% supporters? I doubt that. Like I said -- show a poll from Canadians who have USED the healthcare system for more than a band-aid and present their results. Most Canadians 18-35 are still more focused on jobs and the economy then healthcare. Priority of Issues seem to change as you get older in life. When i was in my 20's, i wanted to get laid. Now in my early 30's I want to secure a future. In my 40's i'll probably want to vacation. When i'm in my 50's i'll probably be more focused on proper healthcare. My answers to various issues will probably change as life goes in -- mainly due to increasing knowledge and encountering of newer issues (eg: healthcare). When i'm 70 -- i'll give you a full report on what *I* have experienced in the US healthcare industry. If you choose to wait.

>The Internet is full of the 'experiences' of those in the socialist system and >how unhappy they are with it? Links please.

Canadians Abroad, Canadians in the US yahoo groups, Toronto Star articles, Canoe articles, Google groups. Health Issue website forums. I'm at work and obvoiusly don't have those links.

Your once again getting back into the "I can get cheap, free bare bones healthcare whenever i want -- therefore it rocks". Well knock yourself out.

When you're dealing with a LIFE THREATENING illness, and looking at inavailibility of newer expensive drugs, and waiting lists and sub-standard equipment and lack of doctors -- i'm sure your opinions will change.

Don't base an opinion on a healthcare industry based upon YOUR LIMITED experience with it. If you truly are an educated man -- you will base it upon the details, facts, experiences and opinions of the masses. I obviously have little or none experience with the US system -- but i base my educated opinion on the masses who have. Opinions, when put together in a pot -- tell a very similar story which i can believe quite satisfactorily.

 

[bluepeter]

I don't *need* to use a system in order to form an opinion on it by listening to OTHERS who *have* gone through it. I don't need to commit a crime to know that life in jail sucks.

Yet you refuse to listen to ACTUAL CANADIANS who live here and have used the system DOZENS AND DOZENS of times. That would be the definition of real world experience wouldn't it? An excellent way to form an opinion right?

Where do you get this 95% would prefer the socialist system? Canada's healthcare system has it's supporters and critics, but 95% supporters? I doubt that. Like I said -- show a poll from Canadians who have USED the healthcare system for more than a band-aid and present their results. Most Canadians 18-35 are still more focused on jobs and the economy then healthcare. Priority of Issues seem to change as you get older in life. When i was in my 20's, i wanted to get laid. Now in my early 30's I want to secure a future. In my 40's i'll probably want to vacation. When i'm in my 50's i'll probably be more focused on proper healthcare. My answers to various issues will probably change as life goes in -- mainly due to increasing knowledge and encountering of newer issues (eg: healthcare). When i'm 70 -- i'll give you a full report on what *I* have experienced in the US healthcare industry. If you choose to wait.

Wrong. If you actually lived here you might know that in several polls prior to our recent Federal elections, healthcare was identified as THE NUMBER ONE ISSUE for Canadians.

How do I know that the vast majority of Canadians want a 'socialist' system vs. two-tier healthcare? Um, cause I LIVE HERE and have never spoken to someone who wants the latter? Because in every single election for the past 20 years, the issue has been broached in political campaigns and has been soundly rejected every single time? Yeah......that's how.

Canadians Abroad, Canadians in the US yahoo groups, Toronto Star articles, Canoe articles, Google groups. Health Issue website forums. I'm at work and obvoiusly don't have those links.

Excellent, I'll read them with interest when you post them and consider the sources. Something you apparently only do selectively.

Your once again getting back into the "I can get cheap, free bare bones healthcare whenever i want -- therefore it rocks". Well knock yourself out.

It's not free, we pay for it with our taxes. It's not bare bones, see next point.

When you're dealing with a LIFE THREATENING illness, and looking at inavailibility of newer expensive drugs, and waiting lists and sub-standard equipment and lack of doctors -- i'm sure your opinions will change.

Uh, no I won't because I have dealt with this as have numerous members of my family. My brother was seriously ill with meningitis when he was 5. He received top quality care with the best drugs and was fine. My mother has chronic back and kidney problems. She was bedridden for nearly 2 years and had several operations performed over a period of time that allow her to function normally and pain free for over a decade now. She received the highest quality care. My uncle was diagnosed with liver cancer (one of the worst kinds) and was given 6 months to live. He lived for well over 2 years partly due to his strong spirit and partly due to the excellent care he received. I could go on and on.

Don't base an opinion on a healthcare industry based upon YOUR LIMITED experience with it. If you truly are an educated man -- you will base it upon the details, facts, experiences and opinions of the masses. I obviously have little or none experience with the US system -- but i base my educated opinion on the masses who have. Opinions, when put together in a pot -- tell a very similar story which i can believe quite satisfactorily.

No shit. You base your educated opinion on the US healthcare system never having used it but just listening to those that have. Then you base your educated opinion on the Canadian healthcare system reading articles from 3000 miles away and IGNORING those with EXTENSIVE experience THAT ACTUALLY LIVE HERE. You keep repeating that you base your opinion on the experiences of others. You have been rebuked on here repeatedly BY THOSE WITH ACTUAL EXPERIENCE when you post up your jabs at 'socialized' healthcare but you ignore those opinions. You work for FOX?

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

bluepeter

I love your posts. I do. But sometimes you;ve gotta recognize the deaf ear.

 

[Razorguns]

So let's breakdown your logic by cutting out all the window dressing:

A highly complex billion dollar system is either good or bad by realizing that:

Bluepeter had a good experience
Bluepeter has never heard anything bad about it
Bluepeter has 5 people close to him who's had good experiences

Therefore...the socialist system officially WORKS.

O-kay.

I really wish the whole world and even government policies could be viewed upon in such a simplistic simpleton manner.

What if you HAD a bad experience? What IF your grandfather died while waiting for key surgery? What IF you couldn't get much-needed drugs? Would the billion dollar system all of a sudden be bad?

Having 3 people have "good" experiences in one city -- doesn't negate that fact that 9 people have had "bad" experiences in another city (say Toronto or Montreal).

The objective, fact-finding, neutral, intelligent thinker will look at those who were let DOWN by the system and sometimes paid the ultimate price. If my father dies because of inadequate healthcare -- do you SERIOUSLY think that you get your cough medicine within 3 hours is any solace to me???

Think outside the box. Pretending that eveyr Canadian is bouncing around happy with fabulous high-tech healthcare comparable to the US's best -- is just proving your living in a tunnel-minded arrogant mindset.