Long term AAS use and Muscle Wasting?

[nautica]

Doctors claim that one reason Anabolic Steroids are not used in the treatment of ALS and other wasting diseases is b/c long term use of AAS causes muscle wasting.

Here is just one quote:

"Muscle wasting. With very long-term use of steroids, wasting of leg muscles may occur. This can cause weakness."

Could someone enlighten me on this one, please.

Thanks
nautica

 

[bazilbb]

only Nandrolone causes muscle wasting in thigh muscles, no other compound i have heard causes any wasting, the rest of the body though does not suffer at all even with nandrolone but thigh is a big and important muscle anyway.
BarPk

 

[lawnsaver]

only Nandrolone causes muscle wasting in thigh muscles, no other compound i have heard causes any wasting, the rest of the body though does not suffer at all even with nandrolone but thigh is a big and important muscle anyway.
BarPk

Can you site any reason why this happens??

 

[bazilbb]

i remember i from a study(i dont remember its site though) where they put few old people on test 200mg/wk after couple of months they put them on deca, then on Oxandrolone. oxandrolone was not good for their TFT and Cholesterol, deca reduced muscle mass of thighs and test was overall a better choice. overall muscle increased in most. with decrease in fat particularly in Oxandrolone time period.
BarPk

 

[bazilbb]

HERE IS THE STUDY: -

Oral anabolic steroid treatment, but not parenteral androgen treatment, decreases abdominal fat in obese, older men.

Lovejoy JC, Bray GA, Greeson CS, Klemperer M, Morris J, Partington C, Tulley R
Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 1995 Sep 19:614-24

Abstract


OBJECTIVE: To compare the effects of Testosterone enanthate (TE), anabolic steroid (AS) or placebo (PL) on regional fat distribution and health risk factors in obese middle-aged men undergoing weight loss by dietary means.

DESIGN: Randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial, carried out for 9 months with primary assessments at 3 month intervals. Due to adverse blood lipid changes, the AS group was switched from oral oxandrolone (ASOX) to parenteral nandrolone decaoate (ASND) after the 3 month assessment point.

SUBJECTS: Thirty healthy, obese men, aged 40-60 years, with serum Testosterone (T) levels in the low-normal range (2-5 ng/mL).

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Abdominal fat distribution and thigh muscle volume by CT scan, body composition by dual energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA), insulin sensitivity by the Minimal Model method, blood lipids, blood chemistry, blood pressure, thyroid hormones and urological parameters.

RESULTS: After 3 months, there was a significantly greater decrease in subcutaneous (SQ) abdominal fat in the ASOX group compared to the TE and PL groups although body weight changes did not differ by treatment group. There was also a tendency for the ASOX group to exhibit greater losses in visceral fat, and the absolute level of visceral fat in this group was significantly lower at 3 months than in the TE and PL groups. There were significant main effects of treatment at 3 months on serum T and free T (increased in the TE group and decreased in the ASOX group) and on thyroid hormone parameters (T4 and T3 resin uptake significantly decreased in the ASOX group compared with the other two groups).

There was a significant decrease in HDL-C, and increase in LDL-C in the ASOX group, which led to their being switched to the parenteral nandrolone decanoate (ASND) after 3 months. ASND had opposite effects on visceral fat from ASOX, producing a significant increase from 3 to 9 months while continuing to decrease SQ abdominal fat. ASND treatment also decreased thigh muscle area, while ASOX treatment increased thigh muscle. ASND reversed the effects of ASOX on lipoproteins and thyroid hormones. The previously reported effect of T to decrease visceral fat was not observed, in fact, visceral fat in the TE group increased slightly from 3 to 9 months, although SQ fat continued to decrease. Neither TE nor AS treatment resulted in any change in urologic parameters.

CONCLUSIONS: Oral oxandrolone decreased SQ abdominal fat more than TE or weight loss alone and also tended to produce favorable changes in visceral fat. TE and ASND injections given every 2 weeks had similar effects to weight loss alone on regional body fat. Most of the beneficial effects observed on metabolic and cardiovascular risk factors were due to weight loss per se. These results suggest that SQ and visceral abdominal fat can be independently modulated by androgens and that at least some anabolic steroids are capable of influencing abdominal fat.

This could be the reason that classic BB never developed as big thighs as BB today(Platz aside) as there wasnt much choice of gear then, deca+d-ball was commonplace
BarPk

 

[TheGame_620]

Id like to hear more on this. bump

 

[nautica]

Bump - I have also seen this study. But have yet to see what could possible cause the muscle wasting.

Nautica

 

[nautica]

up

 

[nautica]

up

 

[oneandthesame]

this looks like a good thread once the guru's chime in
bump

 

[TheGame_620]

What exactly is muscle wasting by the way? IS this your actual muscle cells deteriorating, or just muscles shrinking?

 

[nautica]

What exactly is muscle wasting by the way? IS this your actual muscle cells deteriorating, or just muscles shrinking?

Muscle wasting; Wasting; Atrophy of the muscles

Definition: The wasting or loss of muscle tissue resulting from disease or lack of use.

The majority of muscle atrophy in the general population results from disuse. People with sedentary jobs and senior citizens with decreased activity can lose muscle tone and develop significant atrophy. This type of atrophy is reversible with vigorous exercise. Bed-ridden people can undergo significant muscle wasting. Astronauts, free of the gravitational pull of Earth, can develop decreased muscle tone and loss of calcium from their bones following just a few days of weightlessness.

Muscle atrophy resulting from disease rather than disuse is generally one of two types, that resulting from damage to the nerves that supply the muscles, and disease of the muscle itself. Examples of diseases affecting the nerves that control muscles would be poliomyelitis, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS or Lou Gehrig’s disease), and Guillain-Barre syndrome. Examples of diseases affecting primarily the muscles would include muscular dystrophy, myotonia congenita, and myotonic dystrophy as well as other congenital, inflammatory or metabolic myopathies.

Even minor muscle atrophy usually results in some loss of mobility or power.

Common causes

some atrophy that occurs normally with aging
cerebrovascular accident (stroke)
spinal cord injury
peripheral nerve injury (peripheral neuropathy)
other injury
prolonged immobilization
osteoarthritis
rheumatoid arthritis
prolonged corticosteroid therapy
diabetes (diabetic neuropathy)
burns
poliomyelitis
amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS or Lou Gehrig’s disease)
Guillain-Barre syndrome
muscular dystrophy
myotonia congenita
myotonic dystrophy
myopathy

Nautica

 

[Zyglamail]

I think we can all agreee that the old addage "use it or lose it" is correct. All the obese men I see have no ass and very small legs....except those that are extremely obese and they look more like a weeble .

Having said that if these 40-60 year old fat men are using AAS were actually using their legs for anything more than walking to the fridge for another beer? Keep in mind that if they are dropping significant amounts of body fat and not exercises it could possibly be simple homeostasis and the body reducing muscle mass in the legs since its not needed to cary around the now lighter person. I dont think many of these studies really apply to those with muscle wasting diseases, after all its not about making them big and strong its about quality of life and if it can make the shortened time here more comfortable it should be used if a patient is willing. I personally beleive its not commonly used because most Docs simply do not know enough about AAS are reluctant to use it and simply dont want to deal with the dea registration etc etc. I bet a medline search would yeild some good info on AAS use specifically for those suffering wasting.

 

[adoniscomplex]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

"it could possibly be simple homeostasis and the body reducing muscle mass in the legs since its not needed to cary around the now lighter person."

Good thinking zyg, makes sinse to me.

 

[Zyglamail]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

"it could possibly be simple homeostasis and the body reducing muscle mass in the legs since its not needed to cary around the now lighter person."

Good thinking zyg, makes sinse to me.

Just speculation on my part after all these are likely sedintary people since they are obese anyways.

Also, here is a book on the subject.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=sr_8_1/103-9264683-8197444?v=glance&n=507846

I have it but have not read through it yet, just kind of perused it myself.

 

[Dr.RobertBanner]

Weaknesss and muscle wasting?!?

Someone needs to put whoever said that on a tren/d-bol cycle

 

[Aikido]

This is a good post to read.

Bump for Nautica

 

[HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex]

They are WRONG.Long term use may cause some problems in the side effect department,but certainly not muscle wasting.Do you know what the number one pharmaceutical item prescribed for muscle wasting diseases is?OXANDRIN.It is prescribed to aids patients for maintenance of LBM/strength,and results have been phenomenal over the years.There is no way they would CONTINUE to make this a primary course of treatment in one of the world's most epidemically wasting diseases if it caused the slightest bit of exacerbation of symptoms.That is pure ignorance speaking.

 

[bazilbb]

There was a significant decrease in HDL-C, and increase in LDL-C in the ASOX group, which led to their being switched to the parenteral nandrolone decanoate (ASND) after 3 months. ASND had opposite effects on visceral fat from ASOX, producing a significant increase from 3 to 9 months while continuing to decrease SQ abdominal fat. ASND treatment also decreased thigh muscle area, while ASOX treatment increased thigh muscle. ASND reversed the effects of ASOX on lipoproteins and thyroid hormones. The previously reported effect of T to decrease visceral fat was not observed, in fact, visceral fat in the TE group increased slightly from 3 to 9 months, although SQ fat continued to decrease

Oxandrolone was never mentioned as the culprit, Nandrolone was mentioned, and i dont think some of u read the sutdy well, as its clearly stated that WHEN people used deca only then they had muscle wasting in thighs AND their visceral fat increased(roid gut), others were continuosly increasing LBM.
so theory of age and not working out or sitting on sofa does not apply here, it has something to do with Nandrolone....go figure.
BarPk

 

[nautica]

Great info guys.

Thanks
Nautica

 

[nautica]

Weaknesss and muscle wasting?!?

Someone needs to put whoever said that on a tren/d-bol cycle

Yep, but you would not believe the number of doctors and/or articles have this school of thought. It is a brick wall I have been coming up against while researching. At first I just played it off - until I figured out that these so called "experts" really believe this.

Nautica