Is this Murder? Manslaughter or neither?

[Citruscide]

Quincy is pulled over by Police officers... once outside the car, he becomes roudy and strikes another officer to the ground. Officer Jones shoots Quincy in the stomach. Quincy then picks up the gun from the officer he knocked down and shoots Officer Jones in the head, killing him.

At Quincy's trial for murder, a psychologist and medical examiner testifies that when Officer Jones shot Quincy, it rendered Quincy unconscious and he was not aware of any actions that took place after that.

If the jury believes the expert testimony -- Quincy will be found guilty of:

1. 1st Degree Murder
2. Voluntary Manslaughter
3. Involuntary Manslaughter
4. None of the above

Definitions:

1st Degree Murder -- The intentional killing of another human being with pre-meditation and malice.

Voluntary Manslaughter -- The intentional, Sudden, heat of passion murder... which takes place because of legally adequate provocation.

Involuntary Manslaughter -- No intent to kill, but because of a recklessness involved, the intent is inferred from it.

C

 

[the nature boy]

Voluntary manslaughter. since he provoked the whole thing

or murder, she wrote.

 

[Citruscide]

Common... a few more people have to answer for me to let you in on the beans!

This is actually brain food for everyone... it's helping me study, and giving everyone a lesson in law!

C

 

[PHATchik]

I would come closer to saying none of the above. Voluntary doesn't really fit, however, it wasn't premeditated.

 

[Mr H]

1st degree. Once he picked up the gun he knew what he was going to do. That meets the requirements for premeditated, I'd assume.

 

[Whiskey]

3, involuntary

"IF" he was unconsious, he did 't mean to shoot him in the head. or at all, but he still did it.


Whiskey

 

[madbomber31]

wouldnt it fall under 2nd degree murder?

1st degree would be if he planned in anyway to harm someone...

i got a very good friend in jail who merely punched a guy and killed him... involuntary....

 

[Citruscide]

Ok... I'll stop this before it gets too far.

It's a tricky question. The key here is that Quincy was "unconscious" when he fired the gun at the police officer. However improbable that may sound in the real world, it has been known to happen. Thus, Quincy did not commit any Actus Reas (or volitional Act) nor did Quincy have any requisite intent...

Premeditated is wrong, because Quincy did not have any sort of intent to commit the crime, he wasn't even aware of his actions.

Voluntary is wrong -- this is the "heat of passion" murder... such as finding your wife in bead with another man... or woman. there is still a requisite element of intent, but since Quincy was unconscious, as said above, he couldn't have completed this element of intent, nor could he have been under the heat of passion.

Involuntary manslaughter -- doesn't involve any intentional act, but requires a degree of recklessness, from which, the intent to kill is inferred -- such as driving while drunk.

The only correct answer here is that Quincy did not commit any of the 3 acts listed above.

C

 

[PHATchik]

Woo hoo. Go me.

 

[SofaGeorge]

The correct answer is... drum role please...

It depends on the state.

In California, where I live and where you are moving, it is first degree. It doesn't matter that the actual firing of the gun came at a time when he was rendered "unconscious" briefly according to expert testimony. The crime came about as a result of his resisting arrest... which given the fact that there is a firearm involved gets bumped up to a felony.

Kill someone even accidentally while commiting a felony = 1st degree.

Even more fun... commit a felony with a partner... and the police shoot your partner... you get charged with his murder.

Did I get it right? I watch lots of cop shows.

 

[vixenbabe]

No one noticed the Quincy Jones reference...lol

Interesting read though.. YOU GO PHATCHICK!

 

[manny78]

Thats a tricky one. I'm still unsure but I remember that section 231 (4) says that a murder of a police officer is a first degree murder no matter the person planned it or not.

 

[Citruscide]

Thats a tricky one. I'm still unsure but I remember that section 231 (4) says that a murder of a police officer is a first degree murder no matter the person planned it or not.

No one can commit a criminal act if they did not knowingly do it. Being unconscious is an ABSOLUTE defense to any murder as there would be no requsite mens rea to complete the offense.

C

 

[manny78]

No one can commit a criminal act if they did not knowingly do it. Being unconscious is an ABSOLUTE defense to any murder as there would be no requsite mens rea to complete the offense.

C

Yup I know but that section has been interpreted in rather strange ways by court. In some cases Mens rea wasnt or just so little required. First degree murder requires planification and intention of the act usually except with this section. But I cant complain lol

 

[danielson]

couldnt the fact he started a fight with a police officer be contrued as recklessness on quincy's part? if he hadnt got into a violent fight (enough to make an offcier shoot him) none of the events afterwards would have happened

 

[Citruscide]

couldnt the fact he started a fight with a police officer be contrued as recklessness on quincy's part? if he hadnt got into a violent fight (enough to make an offcier shoot him) none of the events afterwards would have happened

No. Because he was unconscious at the time he fired the gun. I see where you are going with it... that could be if one was driving really recklessly down a city street at 100mph and hit a kid while running a red light--- while he didn't intend to kill the kid, he would most likely be found guilty of murder because his EXTREMELY reckless behavior would be transfered to the murderous intent... and correct me if I'm wrong, but under the Model Penal Code, the reckless driver woudl be guilty of 1st degree murder.

Here, if he wasn't unconscious, he couldn't use the defense of self-defense, because he instigated the attack... but he was unconscious... so can't be held guilty of murder... now, assault and batter of a police officer, yes.

C

 

[danielson]

cool. so what you are saying is if you recieve an injury where you are rendered unconcious "(or basically lose concious control of your actions) any acts commited in this period of unconciousness are not legally your fault and you cant be held accountable for them

sounds like a sweet deal (other than the fact u have to be shot)

 

[Citruscide]

cool. so what you are saying is if you recieve an injury where you are rendered unconcious "(or basically lose concious control of your actions) any acts commited in this period of unconciousness are not legally your fault and you cant be held accountable for them

sounds like a sweet deal (other than the fact u have to be shot)

Another part of the sweet deal is that the jury has to believe the expert that you were rendered unconscious... good luck.

C

 

[danielson]

ouch....good point.


why wouldnt they believe him (statistics say if quincy is black he;s gonna fry regardless right j/k )

 

[Rex]

Officer Jones should've shot a few more rounds into Quincy insuring his partner's safety, and Jones himself would still be on the force.

 

[The_Mexican]

Crazy... reminds me of a case where some dude was sleepwalking and killed his girlfriends parents... and got off.

What a load of bullshit

 

[VicTusDeuS]

Voluntary is wrong -- this is the "heat of passion" murder... such as finding your wife in bead with another man... or woman. there is still a requisite element of intent, but since Quincy was unconscious, as said above, he couldn't have completed this element of intent, nor could he have been under the heat of passion.



C

Well every unconscious person I have seen in my last 22 years has been inmobile and knocked out. So based on this belief I can assume that an unconscious person cannot fire a gun at all therefore he was not unconscious. I do not believe this was pre meditated murder but I do believe this was a reflex action and he shot because he was shot at and hurt. I guess it all depends on the elapsed time too. If everything happened in a matter of seconds i can say that he would be guilty of some sort of manslaughter.

 

[WODIN]

Texas - 1st Degree Murder
New York - Voluntary Manslaugter
Mass. - Jay Walking.