I think high GI post-workout carbs when cutting is bad

[plornive]

I am going to make an assertion here that when cutting, high-GI carbs after a weight-training session is generally detrimental. I think oats are a better alternative. Here is why I think so (there are a few assumptions and educated guesses in these):

1. The higher the level of insulin, the higher the ratio of fat storage to glycogen and amino acid storage.
2. A high insulin level is not required to shuttle amino acids into muscle cells.
3. The "window of opportunity" after a workout is about an hour. The insulin secreted from eating something like oats will remain steady and sufficient for that entire hour and subside shortly afterwards.
4. When cutting, you don't need such a high level of insulin, so the insulin secretion caused by oats is sufficient.
5. With no extreme insulin spike, one won't go slightly hypoglycemic after a workout. This means one will have more energy and will feel less hungry.

Agree/disagree?

 

[georgie24]

no there not, but if your competing then i would think otherwise

 

[plornive]

no there not, but if your competing then i would think otherwise

Could you clarify yourself? Are you saying that during the beginning of a cutting diet it is ok, but near the end it is not? That could make sense.

If not, it seems like you are saying that high-gi carbs are always good, unless a person wants to look REALLY good, like a competing bodybuilder. That does not make sense.

Anyone else?

 

[MS]

I have done just this for every competition I've dieted for, and I have my clients do the same. Save the high GI for carbs refeed/leptin stimulation days. You really just need enough carbs during each day to replenish muscle glycogen, I don't think it's critical when you eat them. All of the studies done on high GI carbs post workout where done on well fed individuals and looked at glycogen resynthesis and protein cycling and tried to relate this to potential muscle GAIN. The hormonal mileu is very different when you're eating submaintenance and trying to RETAIN muscle rather than gain it. In other words, I think a high GI drink might be OK when bulking, but I avoid it when cutting. I also have noticed (at my gym) a LOT of overweight people are sucking down the high GI protein drinks post workout. I am willing to bet that a large proportion of these people have reduced insulin sensitivity and are prolly doing themselves more harm than good with this practice.

Bottom line though, is do what works for you. If you can get ripped by eating high GI carbs post workout then don't bother changing it. I should prolly also mention that I am 43 years old, and adult onset diabetes runs rampant in my family, so I'm more concerned with the long term effects of inappropriate sugar feeding than your average 20 year old BB male.

 

[plornive]

MS,
What are your thoughts on insulin mimmickers and sensitizers while cutting? What do you think is good? I currently just use chromium (about 2 times the US RDA per day).

Also, don't you think it is best to eat carbs when your muscle glycogen stores are lowest, not just any time during the day? It seems this would maximize the glycogen storage to fat storage ratio and reduce gluconeogenesis.

 

[MS]

I think the use of glucose disposal agents depends on your starting insulin sensitivity. If you've got good glucose tolerance at the start of a diet, then you will not need any additional drugs unless you're doing something like a CKD. In fact, you should find your glucose sensitivity increases through the diet. However if you are obese or have marked insulin resistance, then you may need glucose disposal agents in the initial stages of the diet. Most diets that reduce calories and bodyfat will also redice insulin resistance over time.

The question of carb timing when dieting is an interesting one. Again, my experience is that if you're not obese/insulin resistant, then you are not going to be storing calories on a hypocaloric diet, no matter when you eat those calories. I have not noticed an increase in muscle loss while dieting whether I eat my carbs post workout or not. I have not seen convincing evidence that post workout carbs, per se, make an appreciable difference to overall muscle retention as long as your daily intake of macronutrients is adequate. But when I'm getting pretty lean, I also add glutamine and free form aminos to my pre and post training nutrition. This is all anecdotal and the vast majority of BBs will no doubt disagree, not because they've tried it and found it didn't work, but because some other BB said so. My advice is that you try it for yourself and see. The one time I DO use glucose disposal agents is when I have my regular high carb days.

 

[plornive]

...the vast majority of BBs will no doubt disagree, not because they've tried it and found it didn't work, but because some other BB said so.

That is exactly why I asked you instead of another.

 

[MS]

Oh, BTW I use chromium and ALA on my high carb days.

 

[110%]

I am going to make an assertion here that when cutting, high-GI carbs after a weight-training session is generally detrimental. I think oats are a better alternative. Here is why I think so (there are a few assumptions and educated guesses in these):

1. The higher the level of insulin, the higher the ratio of fat storage to glycogen and amino acid storage.
2. A high insulin level is not required to shuttle amino acids into muscle cells.
3. The "window of opportunity" after a workout is about an hour. The insulin secreted from eating something like oats will remain steady and sufficient for that entire hour and subside shortly afterwards.
4. When cutting, you don't need such a high level of insulin, so the insulin secretion caused by oats is sufficient.
5. With no extreme insulin spike, one won't go slightly hypoglycemic after a workout. This means one will have more energy and will feel less hungry.

Agree/disagree?

i disagree, high gi carbs posworkout will create much more optimal muscle recovery than low gi carbs.
1. this is not true, as fat storage will only occur when the nutrients being absorbed have no use, after you workout this should not occur as all the carbs and proteins will be used to restore muscle glycogen and avoid catabolism so no fat storage will take place despite level of gi.
2. no it is not required, though it is much better having high insulin levels than low postworkout considering restoring muscle glycogen and avoiding catabolism said again.
3. this has not been proven, i have heard all the way from 30 min to 2-3 hours for window of oppurtunity, there is not accurate statements to correctly say how long the window of opportunity lasts.
4. why when cutting would you not need as high as insulin levels postworkout than when bulking, arent you still lifting with just as musch intenstiy when cutting and stressing your muscle fibers just as much? i know i try to workout with as much intensity as i can despite what kind of diet i am following.
5. dotn know much about that statement, so cant defend my point ont hat one haha.

those are just my views, i think high gi carbs are more beneficial than low gi postworkout despite what stage of dieting you are in.

 

[plornive]

Re: Re: I think high GI post-workout carbs when cutting is bad

1. this is not true, as fat storage will only occur when the nutrients being absorbed have no use, after you workout this should not occur as all the carbs and proteins will be used to restore muscle glycogen and avoid catabolism so no fat storage will take place despite level of gi.

It is more complex than that. Insulin acts on adipose cells as well as muscle cells. Nothing to my knowledge turns off insulin's actions on adipose cells post-workout. I agree that with with all of the GLUT-4 in muscle cells post-workout, most of the insulin ends up acting on muscle cells instead of adipose cells. However, lipogenesis is not magically turned off.

2. no it is not required, though it is much better having high insulin levels than low postworkout considering restoring muscle glycogen and avoiding catabolism said again.

It is much better to have high insulin levels for protein synthesis and glycogen replenishment, but also much "better" (worse, actually) for lipogenesis.

3. this has not been proven, i have heard all the way from 30 min to 2-3 hours for window of oppurtunity, there is not accurate statements to correctly say how long the window of opportunity lasts.

As stated earlier in my post, I have made some assumptions. 1 hour is an arbitrary guess. My premise is that the window of opportunity (high amount of GLUT-4) is not tiny in any respect. None of the insulin from the oats will be wasted by appearing in the blood too late.

4. why when cutting would you not need as high as insulin levels postworkout than when bulking, arent you still lifting with just as musch intenstiy when cutting and stressing your muscle fibers just as much? i know i try to workout with as much intensity as i can despite what kind of diet i am following.

When bulking, a high insulin level and some fat storage is acceptable. When cutting, we want to tip the scale in the other direction.

5. dotn know much about that statement, so cant defend my point ont hat one haha.

I meant that after an insulin spike, blood sugar declines rapidly (a "sugar crash"). This increases hunger and fatigue.

those are just my views, i think high gi carbs are more beneficial than low gi postworkout despite what stage of dieting you are in.

I think different people have different tolerance levels for high-GI carbs. That being said, I think in general, post-workout carbs should be lower when cutting than when bulking. For most people, I assert that oats are about right post-workout when cutting.

 

[MS]

This topic is always a good controversy spinner. I am telling you what my clients and I do, and that it works. Also check out Bryan Haycock's most recent review of the scientfic literature at http://www.thinkmuscle.com/newsletter/018.doc

Specifically:
"There has been some controversy about which type of carbohydrate is best for post exercise glycogen replenishment. Some argue that simple sugars such as dextrose are best after exercise. Others say that drinks with glucose polymers are best. Still others say that there is no need to buy fancy sports drinks and that simply eating a meal high in carbohydrates such as pasta or rice is sufficient. Studies have shown no difference between different types of carbohydrates eaten post exercise and the rate of glycogen replenishment as long as sufficient quantities of carbohydrate are consumed (Burke 1997). Even when the post exercise meal contains other macronutrients such as proteins and fats, the rate of glycogen replenishment is not hindered, given there is sufficient carbohydrate in the meal as well. THESE STUDIES TELL US THAT THE RATE-LIMITING STEP IN GLYCOGEN REPLENISHMENT AFTER EXERCISE IS NOT IN DIGESTION OR THE GLYCEMIC INDEX OF A GIVEN SOURCE OF CARBOHYDRATE. OVER A 24 HOUR PERIOD IT IS THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF CARBOHYDRATE CONSUMED THAT IS IMPORTANT.

The rate-limiting step in glucose uptake during exercise is determined by the rate of phosphorylation once glucose has entered the muscle cell (Halseth 1998). Glycogen synthase activity is also a possible rate-limiting step (Halseth 1998). These processes are not readily influenced by the composition of the "post exercise" meal, but rather by THE EXTENT TO WHICH GLYCOGEN WAS DEPLETED DURING EXERCISE AS WELL AS THE AMOUNT OF CARBOHYDRATE AND FAT CONSISTENTLY INCLUDED IN THE DIET."

It's not JUST my opinion. I recommend you read his whole article, because I also think his advice on pre workout nutrition is sound and relavant, especially to dieters.


Anyway, you can argue"theory" until we're all pushing up tulips. I sugget you just try it.

 

[plornive]

"Don’t worry about sugar content because right after a workout, fat storage is not a big issue. "

Perhaps I am wrong, since this article states that fat storage is not a big deal post-workout. I'm not so convinced of that, since I have never heard of any mechanism that would limit lipogenesis that significantly in the presence of high insulin levels. Anyway, I've already stated my case.

Thanks for the response 110%.

Anyone else with any ideas?

 

[MS]

I think a lot of folks over intellectualize this stuff. You're not gonna store much fat postworkout as long as you've done a good job of glycogen depletion. Your muscles will preferentially take up the glucose from your blood compared to fat cells. But even if some of the post workout carbs DID get stored as fat, it's no big deal if you're eating hypocaloric overall. You'll merely burn those calories off later on, for instance if you do some cardio the next morning when insulin is low……..But you don't necessarily need to blast your pancreas to produce a huge spike of insulin to get the benefits of carbs. Just make sure you eat some carbs before and after. Oats are fine. Dextrose is fine. Jelly beans are fine…….