How does arimidex help kickstart HPTA levels?

[Jack Burton]

How exactly does an anti estrogen help kickstart your natural test after a cycle?

Ive been hearing this alot lately, and was thinking about throwing some in with my clomid.

 

[ultragainz]

take it with clomid after a cycle

 

[2Thick]

As far as I know it does not directly jump-start your natural test.

Clomid will do that, though.

 

[ultragainz]

clomid and arimidex together is great after a cycle

 

[thefacelessballer]

i dont belive armidex by its lonesome, can restart th hpta very effictavly

 

[MadMachine]

Here's my theory. The H gland is senseatized by androgens, and inhibuted by estrogens, by by preventing the little amount of test you are producing from converting into estrogen, it will stay testosterone, which will help.

-Also, Clomd does not exactly start natural production for me...in fact, it does nothing. It's kinda like a bad tasting, real expensive multi-vit. LOL

 

[DTOX]

How exactly does an anti estrogen help kickstart your natural test after a cycle?

Ive been hearing this alot lately, and was thinking about throwing some in with my clomid.

The same way clomid does: simply inhibitting estrogen.

If clomid does this through any other method I'd sure love to read about it.

 

[Hungry1]

The same way clomid does: simply inhibitting estrogen.

If clomid does this through any other method I'd sure love to read about it.

I believe Clomid stimulates production of LH.

 

[MadMachine]

Psssssp, it does that by making the body think it has no estrogen. Wink wink, hint hint, LOL. Of course, for some reason, my body just laughs at clomid.

 

[Justtryingnot2getfat]

it was my understanding that most took arimidex during their cycle not after like clomid

 

[PimpnAintEasy]

Clomid restarts HPTA by increasing LH levels which signals the body to begin producing Testosterone. An aromatase inhibitor like Arimidex will help kickstart HPTA indirectly, & will inhibit aromatization of androgens to estrogen, keeping test levels higher and estrodiol levels lower. This is also an important function for retaining gains made on AS.

Proviron, another aromatase inhibitor may be a better choice post-cycle (along with Clomid) as it has a dual function of both being a mild androgen and a aromatase inhibitor. Here's an excerpt from the "GainsKeeper Formula":

"Proviron is a synthetic androgen that also acts as an anti-aromatase. When the intake of steroids ceases, the bodies own androgen levels are very low, yet the estrogen levels are still very high. This shifts the androgen to estrogen ratio in favor of the estrogens spelling bad news for the user. Proviron keeps the ratio in favor of the androgens without effecting the natural production of testosterone, thereby adding to spermatogenisis. This double action drug begins to reduce the amount of estrogen in the body by preventing the aromatization of testosterone to estrogen so that possible gyno, water retention and female pattern fat distribution may be avoided. It will also give the body a much harder look."

 

[Weam]

How exactly does an anti estrogen help kickstart your natural test after a cycle?

Ive been hearing this alot lately, and was thinking about throwing some in with my clomid.

Well, Estrogen known to inhibit the Gonadotrophins(natural production of Testosterone) by sending negative feedbacks to the pituitary gland and the HTPA "hypothalamohypophysial testicular axis"(This happens when Estrogen saturates testosterone receptors in the hypothalamus region of the brain. The saturated hypothalamus then stops sending out a hormone to the pituitary gland to stimulate secretion of luteinizing hormone)
and Less Estrogen = More Testosterone production , More Estrogen = Less Testosterone production

and the exact mechanism of Clomid, it competitively inhibits Estrogen receptors from binding at Hypothalamus, gives a negative feedback to the Hypothalamus and pituitary gland as general that there is enough Estrogen around and there is no needing for more production as with all negative feedbacks mechanism, allows for unabated GnRH secretion, Increases pituitary sensitivity to GnRH which leads to Enhanced Luteinizing hormone (LH) release and Enhanced Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH) release

by mean, Clomid is mainly works by inhibiting Estrogen to get more LH/FSH production(Testosterone production)

so by taking something like Arimidex, which blocks the aromatase enzyme(which converts Testosterone into Estrogen in the body), and showed in many studies that it significantly lowers serum estradiol concentrations without even the presence of aromatization.

so Arimidex will going to help, by lowering Estradiol concentration in the blood which will going to bind to the hypothalamus and cause the inhibition, so by preventing it, less inhibition will occur and by the assistance of Clomid, it will gonna be perfect

Important note:
The Gonadotrophins including FSH (follicle stimulating hormone) and LH (luteinizing hormone) are responsible for the production of Testosterone/Estrogen/Progesterone and by inhibiting the Gonadotrophins as during the cycles, then there must be a low Testosterone, Low Progesterone and Low Estrogen level but the reason here fo why Estrogen is elavated
The lower Gonadotrophins and suppressed HPT-axis the higher SHBG (sex hormone-binding globulin) a protein produced by the liver, which binds free testosterone in the blood, making it less available to cell receptor sites while it increase serum Estradiol level and causes an inbalance in Testosterone/Estradiol levels.

I hope that's clear enough

 

[DTOX]

Weam, this is a bit off the original topic, but...

What are your feelings on Clomid post non-aromatizing steroid cycle?

If someone does an 8 week cycle of primo, oxandrolone, etc., how much does Clomid help if there's already low estrogen levels?

 

[2Thick]

-Also, Clomd does not exactly start natural production for me...in fact, it does nothing. It's kinda like a bad tasting, real expensive multi-vit. LOL

Sorry but you are wrong. Many people have had their blood work done before and after Clomid and guess what??? Their natural test and LH levels were high after clomid therapy....
BTW- They began with abnormally LOW levels 3 weeks prior.

 

[Weam]

Weam, this is a bit off the original topic, but...

What are your feelings on Clomid post non-aromatizing steroid cycle?

If someone does an 8 week cycle of primo, oxandrolone, etc., how much does Clomid help if there's already low estrogen levels?

What do you meant by (this is a but off the original topic)

also non-aromatizing drugs as Primobolan and Anavar
are the less to cause inhibition

 

[DTOX]

also non-aromatizing drugs as Primobolan and Anavar
are the less to cause inhibition

If Clomids kickstarts LH/FSH by inhibiting estrogen, then what is the point of using Clomid after a heavy/long Primo/Anavar/Winstrol/etc cycle when estrogen is *already* extremely low?

Would the clomid be worthless at that point, or is there something else going on?

 

[LewdTenant]

Damn, now I got to spend more money for my cycle!! i feel like I'm 18 again and just picked up the latest muscle mag reporting about the newest drug I have to have.

What are proper dosing schedules for clomid and arimidex post cycle? Say, for an 8 week cycle of fina,Test Prop and winny?

 

[Bulldog_10]

This'll probably sound stupid. But I am taking arimidex throughout my whole cycle. And I'm gonna take clomid post cycle (2-1/2 weeks after) Should I run the arimidex the whole way through?? (during the 2-1/2 week waiting period AND with the clomid)??

Thanks Bros!
B-10

 

[Bulldog_10]

oh yeah!

Sust 500mg/wk 1-10
winny 50mg/ed 1-6
Anavar 40mg/ED 7-10(12 maybe)
Phosphagen throughout

What do you think about running the anavar past the sust? Should I get more sust and go 12 weeks?

Thanks,
B-10

 

[double d]

I'm also interested in board members thoughts on post cycle Arimidex dosing when used with clomid. Makes sense to use the LH stimulating properties of Clomid in conjunction with the Estrogen reducing properties of Arimidex. What about dosing recommendations?

 

[LewdTenant]

inquiring minds want to know about cycle use of arimidex and post cycle use.Please note the date of my post and the post before me. I did a search and stuffs

 

[MadMachine]

Sorry but you are wrong. Many people have had their blood work done before and after Clomid and guess what??? Their natural test and LH levels were high after clomid therapy....
BTW- They began with abnormally LOW levels 3 weeks prior.

Blah blah blah. Maybe you forgot to take note of the fact I said, FOR ME. I doubt you react the same way to any drug as I do. Deca does nothing for me, but primobolan does wonders! If Deca works great for you, but primo doesn't why are you even the slightest bit surprised that I might not react to clomid as well as others? Your a mod, and I give you respect and props for that, but don't tell me I'm wrong when I take clomid for a year at 150mgs/day and my nuts are the size of peanuts. Basically, I have the personal experience on this side of the issue, but at least I recognize the fact that more people than not respond favorably too it even if that is not my experience. So if I can accept that point of view, why are you so unable to accept mine? Some might call that ignorance, and I know your not that, so you must have a reason for your line of thought. Please do enlighten me.

MM

 

[anabolic24/7]

Mad Machine, the size of your balls has no bearing on your bodies ability to produce test.

 

[MadMachine]

Hey Anabolic, hee hee, here I am (nudge nudge )
[It's an inside thing guys]

Anyway, I'm not so sure testicle size are not directly related to testosterone production, or the ability to do so. In fact, being that it is the testes that produce the hormone, would you not think it would hypertrophy with use? Athrophy when not used? Made sense to me, but maybe you know better then I, as I'm just following a "by my gut" or "Common sensable" fashion of thought. I guess the real question is if my test levels were back to normal, why did my testicles not return to that size, and why didn't my libdo return to normal?

 

[anabolic24/7]

Your test may not have been back up, but your size is not an indicator. One could use hcg and have big balls yet have no test prodution.
Good to see ya... and go easy on 2Thick, heh heh heh

 

[MadMachine]

Don't get me wrong, I like 2thick. He's a cool guy, no doubt, but I thought he was making kind of a generalized statement there.

Anyway, anabolic, can you tell me WHY testicle size and production levels are not proportionate? I'm not doubting you, but I would better like to understand the concept as HCG gave me a libdo and ball size, clomid gave me....a guy to give a few hundred dallors a year.

 

[CONTRACTION]

QUESTION

So, since Arimidex works along with clomid in post cycle recovery due to it lowering estrogen levels, then why couldnt any anti-e be used like Nolva for instance??

 

[MadMachine]

Clomid and Nolvadex are very similar in how they work. The drugs have a diferent affinity to diferent receptors in the body. Clomid has a higher affinity to the ones in the Hypo. while Nolvadex has a higher affinity to the receptors in breat tissue. Arimidex solves this by simply almost eliminating estrogen... I think.

 

[anabolic24/7]

I can't tell you the science behind it, that is a question for you to ask on AF. Fact remains, you can be on high levels of AS, with no natural test prodution and hang very nicely with the help of hcg.
Why were you on clomid for so long? What were your reasons?
My own 'coming off' program includes arimidex,clomid, hcg, and proviron.

 

[MadMachine]

I said it on AF, but it bears repeating here so others don't make my mistake. Blind hope. I was just hoping it would work over time, but didn't. Very disappionting.

So what causes the testicles in grow in size? If it's not LH hormone....why would HCG work?

I'm terribly confused now, lol.

 

[cockdezl]

As posted above, Clomid and Arimidex both increase LH release by one mechanism - blocking estrogenic action. Clomid actually blocks the brain estrogen receptors, while Arimidex simply inhibits estrogen production. There is no evidence that Clomid has any direct stimulatory action, but an indirect action through its anti-estrogenic nature. This is shown in studies showing that Arimidex also increases LH and testosterone levels in normal men.

I think that too many are under the impression that ONLY estrogen causes HPTA suppression. Androgens are also inhibitory. Stanazolol will suppress the HPTA just as plain ole testosterone will, yet it does not aromatize. It maybe that post-cycle bridges will be best accomplished by ceasing all steroids and using agents such as insulin and GH, in order to allow the HPTA to re-adjust itself.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Cockdezl,

Winstrol suppresses HPTA because (super macro theory ) it is a mixed progestenic agonist/antagonist. Thus it suppresses HPTA for the same reason as TREN- though tren is far worse and aa does Nandrolone for that matter.

peace

 

[CONTRACTION]

Re: QUESTION

So, since Arimidex works along with clomid in post cycle recovery due to it lowering estrogen levels, then why couldnt any anti-e be used like Nolva for instance??

Can someone shed some light on my question? Macro??

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Nolva is a mixed agonist/antagonist of the ER-
the reason that clomid works is because it is a strong antagonist of the ER in the Hypothalamus- nolva is not

 

[Superfrk]

Atricle by A , it shows how armidex directy stimulates the htpa.
Some other ideas.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Instead of tapering off, he dropped all juice abruptly.

<That's smart.

BTW he was on 800 mg /
week test (that's all it takes) along with arimidex, clomid, finasteride,
l-glutamine, potassium, and iron.

<That's even smarter and I've written about the reasons to use clomid and arimidex together. Don't agree with the shock theory as they work just because that's how clomid and arimidex work. Clomid hits the LH and arimidex hits the FSH.

The reasoning behind this was simple: The
higher the shock to the HPTA, the quicker the Hypothalimus responds and wakesup, sending signals to the pituitary via LHRH to release LH and re-activate thetestes. This was a shot in the dark that proved dead on, we had his serumtestosterone tested 10 days after the cutoff and it was almost wihin normalrange. That is an incredible recovery rate for an 8 week cycle, but results mayvary. Next time I'd like to run a daily assay on him to chart the recovery on agraph, but those tests are a bit pricy and would be a trick to justify to his
insurance. Maybe I'll buy some assay kits =) Normal baseline recovery after atraditional taper for him was about 14 - 16 days (usually that's when we can getget the bloodwork scheduled -- having a couple of colleag!ues in the lab helps).



Of course I implemented the mandatory 2 weeks off from day 1 of cycle cutoff.This means no strenuous activity for 2 solid weeks which includes no training,no cardio, not even grunting on the shitter. This keeps the muscle glycogenlevels constant and prevents the protein breakdown associated with glycogendepletion during resistance training (a major catabolic factor when test levels are low).

<I would have kept up the cardio at least and maybe once a week of some type of strength training at a lower intensity level.

This brought his maintenance calories down from 2800 to about 2200 per
day. This was good because the next part of the experiment was targeted directly at reducing catabolism.

Coming off a cycle, your catabolic hormones are exceedingly high so it isimportant to try to dampen them if even slightly with insulin and aminogluthemide during the last week of cycle. Anyone who has switched toinsulin coming off a cycle will attest that they lose less muscle mass thancoming off previous cycles without it, but sometimes this ends up raisingbodyfat so it's a tradeoff.

<High catabolic hormones is debatable at best! IF you mean they are high in ratio to the testosterone, then yes, but if you mean they are much higher than a normal persons, then that's questionable. Additionally, I have experience with blood tests and people after cycle with higher then normal cortisol and virtually nil test, fsh, and LH and their gains weren't inhibited or lost.


weeks, he was going to consume 5k cal / day even if it killed him. Actually Ithink I went a little overboard on this and stopped counting. I just guessed andusually erred on the side of overkill. Thank god he was as interested in thisthing as I or I don't think he would have lasted 3 days, but I have a way ofmotivating people.

<Way to fatten him up for the slaughter!

The reason I upped his calories and dropped his activity was because we feltcatabolic reactions stem from the same foundation as lipolysis: Convertingexcess mass to elementary proteins and sugars to feed the metabolism. Shouldthere be an over-abundance of proteins and sugars in the body perhaps thecatabolic demons could be appeased.

The other thing I felt was that 2 weeks of gluttony probably wouldn't be longenough to generate a permanent effect on his overall fat mass as it usuallytakes just over 2 weeks for the body to adapt to this sort of thing. Well, atleast HE bought it, and that's what's important.

Results: Week 1, lost 3 lbs. Week 2, lost 2 lbs. Week 3, so far no weightloss.

<Muscle or fat? Evidently the cals didn't stop the catabolism.

He was back in the gym today training with moderate intensity and is walking on
air. Also he somehow looks more pumped now than when he was on juice, it's hard
to tell, could be because of the subq water loss.

<Yes, always look better within first month off juice.



<You've also overlooked adding in creatine as that will be lost from the muscle cells as well. ALL AS increase creatine stores to their limit which is why you don't need to take creatine during a cycle. And/or you could also take 1ml/2g bodyweight of glycerol /day. Glycerol greatly cuts down on soreness after doing about 100ml/day for 5 days. Suprised even me because all the research is for one time doses prior to an event, but it seems that we have something else happening with continual usage!

<Next, you should take and/or test the thyroid level of the patient as well as add in HGH or IGF during the first two weeks off the cycle.

<Like you said, test is related to thyroid and vice versa and hGH is related to thyroid and vice versa! Ever notice the amount of people who say they start sweating upon use of AS?



<So do you see where this is going? The catabolism may not in fact be from high cortisol at all, but from high thyroid and low hGH and no test when coming off! Can't spell catabolism any better than that!

And in fact, in some sports cortisol is used and one week after starting it, the athletes claim their performance goes up dramatically..........

 

[cockdezl]

"Cockdezl,

Winstrol suppresses HPTA because (super macro theory ) it is a mixed progestenic agonist/antagonist. Thus it suppresses HPTA for the same reason as TREN- though tren is far worse and aa does Nandrolone for that matter."

MACRO, this may be true, but I have not seen any info concerning stanazolol having agonist activity for the PR (but I really have not looked into this). Regardless, other strong androgens that don't aromatize, such as Fluoxymesterone, will suppress the HPTA, showing that the hypothalamus is sensitive to androgen levels also.

"Nolva is a mixed agonist/antagonist of the ER-
the reason that clomid works is because it is a strong antagonist of the ER in the Hypothalamus- nolva is not"

MACRO, from my understanding, Clomiphene and Tamoxifen are both partial agonist/antagonists, but clomiphene simply penetrates the CNS better than tamoxifen.

 

[LewdTenant]

so i'm thingking if you do HCG right after your cycle is complete and start with clomid afterwards,while running arimidex the whole time,you should get your nuts back in shape and not have to worry about gyno from HCG. i know there a lot of HCG haters out there. Any thoughts?

 

[panerai]

Cockdezl,

Winstrol suppresses HPTA because (super macro theory ) it is a mixed progestenic agonist/antagonist. Thus it suppresses HPTA for the same reason as TREN- though tren is far worse and aa does Nandrolone for that matter.

peace

Even Anavar supress HPTA, not completely, but it does.

 

[Superfrk]

LewdTenant, what you are saying is correct but HCG by passes the HTPA and mimicks LH. this will actualy delay normalization of the HTPA. SO I would sugest doing HCG
9 days prior to clomid and agin 6 days prior to clomid, this way it will boost natural test levels and start to help with sperm production.