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How do you "Outsourceproof" yourself, regardless of industry?
- Thread starter bran987
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Integrating the skills that were outsourced yesterday.
Almost anything can be outsourced bor.
Almost anything can be outsourced bor.
bran987
New member
MattTheSkywalker said:Integrating the skills that were outsourced yesterday.
Almost anything can be outsourced bor.
i.e. Top-Level Management? So you're saying the only way to not be outsourced, is to be high up (read as: valuable?) enough to be one involved in such matters of importance as what to/what not to outsource and what will result for the company from such actions. Did I just say a long winded version of what you said?
bran987
New member
Do you think the whole issue is overdramatized/hyped by the few who experience it? Or will the current media/political frenzy eventually be justified?
Did you know I read an article yesterday about lawyers being outsourced? Firms already setting up legal departments staffed with paralegals in India? I'll find the article.
Did you know I read an article yesterday about lawyers being outsourced? Firms already setting up legal departments staffed with paralegals in India? I'll find the article.
Synpax
Well-known member
Outsourcing is a silly issue. Last year about 2 million jobs were outsourced but 6 million were insourced (foreign companies creating jobs here).
Here's a simple test - if you took a week off from work, would someone else be able to take your place or would your work come to a standstill? If it's the latter, you are good to go.
That is also the acid test for blue collar job versus white collar job. Blue collar gets outsourced, white does not.
Here's a simple test - if you took a week off from work, would someone else be able to take your place or would your work come to a standstill? If it's the latter, you are good to go.
That is also the acid test for blue collar job versus white collar job. Blue collar gets outsourced, white does not.
Synpax said:
Incorrect, unless your company is all fucked up. Almost any job (outside of trades or physical labor) can be reduced to a series of processes that are repeatable, code-able into software, and replaceable at a lower wage.
Acid test? You must mean you were on acid when you wrote that.
Our company does outsourcing (BPO) and we have outsourced things all the way to the director level of a client company. Every job we create is white collar, and is outsourced. We do, however, outsource to Americans, rather than off shore.
But that too will change.
Synpax
Well-known member
MattTheSkywalker said:
No. Not even close. EG: The principle of my firm hands me the expert testimony from the other side and tells me "destroy this." I'm the only person who can do that within a reasonable amount of time to the desired specifications - and it's not just a matter of doing it - it's a matter of quality of how it's done. What I produce will be much better than what anyone else can do.
MattTheSkywalker said:
What makes the job white color? My acid test is the definition of white/blue colar - it's not a matter of disagreeing. That's what those words mean.
Also, you can't 'outsource' a new job according to the contemporary discussion, and you certainly can't 'outsource' a 'new job' to an American - at least not within the contemporary definition of outsourcing.
By your definition, taking your new car to get an oil change rather than doing it yourself to your corner gas station would be 'outsourcing.'
Synpax said:
OK, but there is nothing *inherently* outsource-proof about what you;re saying. Why couldn't a well-educated English speaking Indian do it? No reason, except that he lacks the training.
I'm not sure this even makes sense; it certainly is not a response to what I posted.
You may be semantically correct, but on content you're mistaken. Look up "Business Process Outsourcing" on the web; it is by any defintion "outsourcing" or "BPO" and it often involves transfer of specific work from one organization to another for the purpose of specialization.
The party to whom it is outsourced is irrelevant according to a strict definition of "outsourcing"; you along with many have gravitated to a political definiton, which means that the recipient of the work is outside of the US.
Now you lost the semantic point as well as the logical one. This example is inaccurate unless you were an organization which derives its revenue from changing oil, rather than a private individual.
bran987
New member
Synpax
Well-known member
MattTheSkywalker said:
And connections. And experience that makes the difference between an A job and a D- job.
(and what's kind of funny is that the guy with the PhD and three masters degrees who was the expert for the other side actually is a 'well-educated English speaking Indian' and I have totally annihilated him.)
Ultimately, the answer is not to have a job but be your own company that is creativity-driven and impossible to outsource.
Razorguns
Well-known member
I assume you're implying "foreign" outsourcing.
To answer your question...top of the head:
* Revenue-Generating positions (eg: a star quarterback or basketball palyer like Micheal Jordon who becomes a star and brings millions of new fans to the games).
* Union-job (eg: Longshoreman. Those guys will NEVER get outsourced while i'm still alive).
* Government Service Jobs (eg: Policeman, National Security positions)
Basically if something *has* to be done here (eg: police officer), or the company *depends* on you for revenue (eg: small company and you're the lead inventor of the product) you're fine.
To answer your question...top of the head:
* Revenue-Generating positions (eg: a star quarterback or basketball palyer like Micheal Jordon who becomes a star and brings millions of new fans to the games).
* Union-job (eg: Longshoreman. Those guys will NEVER get outsourced while i'm still alive).
* Government Service Jobs (eg: Policeman, National Security positions)
Basically if something *has* to be done here (eg: police officer), or the company *depends* on you for revenue (eg: small company and you're the lead inventor of the product) you're fine.
Synpax said:
Everyone on this board should read bran987's link and read as much as possible about BPO: Business Process Outsourcing
What you may soon find out is that nothing is beyond outsourcing, because outsourcing is really just a matter of pushing work to the lowest cost desk possible, wherever it is located.
This has always been the rule in business, but the Internet is what made it possible on a global scale. BPO pre-Internet existed in some fields, but has now skyrocketed.
I am breaking your balls on this post not for any personal reasons, but because the points you are making are (1) incorrect, (2) not useful to the furtherance of understanding of this topics. Out-braining better educated opposition is a nice victory for you, and I hope it furthers your career, but it does little (nothing, in fact) to support a stanced that some jobs cannot be outsourced.
Your reliance on "connections" is like the UAW relying on lobbying: a short term solution that markets will always overcome. Ask Kia, Hyundai, and all the japanese car makers that have rendered American cars to the rental fleets. Your "ultimate answer" is a vague pie-in-the-sky response that has no real defintion; it's gibberish.
Everything can be outsourced, because outsourcing only really means (conceptually) "increasing specialization to reduce costs"
The stars in this type of economy will be people who understand how to integrate this newly available pool of cheap intellecutal labor (soon to be commoditized on a grand scale and available with points and clicks) in a manner that allows businesses to achieve their objectives more cheaply.
It's a BPO world. Knowledge is power.
Synpax
Well-known member
MattTheSkywalker said:
You contradict yourself. You say my example/explanation of how to be unoutsourcable is silly, and then repeat what I said as advice to become unoutsourcable. Your assessment of the automobile is also quaintly out-dated.
Creativity and the willingness to undertake risk cannot be commoditized and markets are not efficient.
Bran987 said:
Technically, anything can be outsourced. One of the few things that can't (not directly) is probably the legal department (attorneys) just because our law doesn't allow a foreigner to take a case to a canadian court without being a member of its provincial bar.
Synpax said:
My post that began by imploring all readers to learn about BPO was crystal clear.
Maybe you're not that familiar with this topic. I suggest you try and become familiar with it though.
bran987
New member
http://www.cfo.com/article.cfm/3001269?f=related
http://www.deloitte.com/dtt/section_node/0,1042,sid%3D20063,00.html
(note the REIT case study, cool)
http://www.pwcglobal.com/extweb/service.nsf/docid/621A39F3FEE5D62E8525662A005A2DBB
http://www.internetnews.com/ent-news/article.php/3071001
http://www.eds.com/services_offerings/so_bpo_overview.shtml
http://www.csc.com/solutions/businessprocessoutsourcing/
(note: case studies lower righthand corner of page)
http://www.forbes.com/bow/b2b/industry.jhtml?id=38
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/9/prwebxml160896.php
http://www.deloitte.com/dtt/section_node/0,1042,sid%3D20063,00.html
(note the REIT case study, cool)
http://www.pwcglobal.com/extweb/service.nsf/docid/621A39F3FEE5D62E8525662A005A2DBB
http://www.internetnews.com/ent-news/article.php/3071001
http://www.eds.com/services_offerings/so_bpo_overview.shtml
http://www.csc.com/solutions/businessprocessoutsourcing/
(note: case studies lower righthand corner of page)
http://www.forbes.com/bow/b2b/industry.jhtml?id=38
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/9/prwebxml160896.php
Synpax
Well-known member
MattTheSkywalker said:
Gee thanks professor. It's only what the firm I work for exists because of.
I tend not to end a discussion by telling someone to 'go read a book.'
This began by someone asking how not to be outsourced, you said everyone could be outsourced, I said that creation-driven along with quality-gradient and trust-based employment is nearly impossible if not impossible to outsource. I would also add that ownership is not outsourceable (posesssion of a wealth producing asset). The concrete examples of these would be to become a personal trainer, write a novel, build a better mousetrap, or buy an apartment building.
Not everything is a commodity and not everything is driven by economy of scale.
Bran987 said:
Good links bro.
BPO is moving well beyond IT; it is now into other areas. Typically it had been guided by "revenue distance"; organizations would only outsource functions that were far far away from the creation of revenue.
IT historically has a long revenue distance, so do call centers, collections, and all the typically outsourced functions.
What is happening now in many industries is that functions with a lower revenue distance are being outsourced. Functions closer to core (ie revenue producing) operations are getting outsourced.
The "corner that will be turned" occurs when outsourcing is no longer done merely as a cost savings (still the traditional paradigm) but is outsourced beacuse (1) the vendor is better at the activity (this is already going on and (2) the client integrates the vendor and vendor data into core operations.
This is going to happen soon; it is already basically what is going on in the UK insurance (and Bermuda reinsurance) market; large private equity firms are capitalizing insurance and reinsurance companies simply by buying licenses from defunct businesses, renaming them, and outsourcing EVERYTHING.
Smart companies are able to upsell their data to the clients, and get closer to core operations. This will start to happen in ALL industries.
There will also be a lot of resistance; this sort of BPO replaces client personnel wih vendor personnel; and if you check out more about this topic, you will see some of the frustrations vendors have endured.
What is happening now is large consulting houses are partnering with vendors. The consultant gets the entry, the sale and a relationship management fee, the vendor gets the work, the access, and the margins.
There will be a series of cycles where vendors are acquired by large providers, slowing progress but making vendors very rich. ( we hope
)Newer and more sophisticated vendors will replace those acquired, and the field will move toward intelligent data analysis, predictive analytics that actually work, etc. Interesting stuff; we're only at the tip of the iceberg.
Bran - these same technologies will drive AVMs too.
wutangnomo
New member
So as it stands right now BPO is utilized mainly to free up time and focus for core business practices and to reduce costs. It makes sense that eventually BPO will move closer and closer to core business operations.
What I don't understand is what is the problem with outsourcing? Outsourcing is utilized for two reasons; the vendor is cheaper and/or the vendor is more specialized. Wouldn't this eventually simply lead to a "correction" in market value for most job? By "correction" I mean lowering of salaries/wages and more specialization in each field.
Why not be the "outsourcee"?
What I don't understand is what is the problem with outsourcing? Outsourcing is utilized for two reasons; the vendor is cheaper and/or the vendor is more specialized. Wouldn't this eventually simply lead to a "correction" in market value for most job? By "correction" I mean lowering of salaries/wages and more specialization in each field.
Why not be the "outsourcee"?
Bran987 said:
well, i am of course referring to a internal director - external directors are often large shareholders or named by the Chairman.
Internal director is similar to a Sr. VP or "managing director" at varying types of firms.
We outsourced it because we have gotten very close to core offerings, so we have replaced key people with our people.
The ability to do this, along with the huge dollars resident in the industry we do business, is why we have the attention of Wall St and private equity.
They all want to know how we did it too. For the right price, they can find out.
Bran987 said:Yes I assumed it was internal.
I think this may be one of those most ambiguous and cryptic posts I've ever read!
You should see the non-disclosure agreements we write for potential clients before they see our offices. We had a 6 week legal scuffle with a $15B annual revenues company (top 5 insurer) before we let them visit.
Everyone gets this treatment. Only a buyer will get to see the real stuff.
But maybe I'll talk with you about it conceptually.
bran987
New member
MattTheSkywalker said:You should see the non-disclosure agreements we write for potential clients before they see our offices. We had a 6 week legal scuffle with a $15B annual revenues company (top 5 insurer) before we let them visit.
Everyone gets this treatment. Only a buyer will get to see the real stuff.
yeah we have to deal with those pesky things all the time
whatever you are comfortable discussing, I am in sponge mode right now.
Synpax
Well-known member
I disagree completely about the future of outsourcing - at least people jobs.
Outsourcing always has a price premium - a combination of profit for the outsourcing firm and fixed cost overlap.
It may be the case that at any given moment, it is less expensive for a firm to outsource something ranging from HR to QA to research than it is for them to do it themselves. But the outsourcing doesn't get rid of the inefficiency - it makes it temporarily smaller.
The ideal circumstance is for the outsourcing firm to acquire the outsourcee, reduce the overhead, and take the profit out of the transaction.
This is sometimes a cyclical relationship but the long-term result is acquasition. The principal motivator of the circumstances that allow for outsourcing are technology (being able to actually _have_ a call center in India) although sometimes there are political ones as well (free trade agreements, etc.)
Further, as AI develops and replaces transactional (bankers) and process (construction, etc.) occupations, all future human employment will be in three fields (creative ones) - science, application of the science (engineering), and the arts.
Outsourcing always has a price premium - a combination of profit for the outsourcing firm and fixed cost overlap.
It may be the case that at any given moment, it is less expensive for a firm to outsource something ranging from HR to QA to research than it is for them to do it themselves. But the outsourcing doesn't get rid of the inefficiency - it makes it temporarily smaller.
The ideal circumstance is for the outsourcing firm to acquire the outsourcee, reduce the overhead, and take the profit out of the transaction.
This is sometimes a cyclical relationship but the long-term result is acquasition. The principal motivator of the circumstances that allow for outsourcing are technology (being able to actually _have_ a call center in India) although sometimes there are political ones as well (free trade agreements, etc.)
Further, as AI develops and replaces transactional (bankers) and process (construction, etc.) occupations, all future human employment will be in three fields (creative ones) - science, application of the science (engineering), and the arts.
As has already been said, everything can be outsourced. Manufactured goods, and parts have been for ages, now the service industry is able to do so as well. Its going to be interesting with "western" countries having shifted to more information based economies, now that option in opening up for less developed countries.
The outsourcing to Indian call centres is really taking off here in Austraila, particually with communications companies. Its got to be pased purely on percieved economic gains because the quality has definatly fallen (no offence to the Indians). I get calls from phone companies at least a couple times a week and half the time I cannot understand what they are talking about, let alone be tempted to purchase anything.
The outsourcing to Indian call centres is really taking off here in Austraila, particually with communications companies. Its got to be pased purely on percieved economic gains because the quality has definatly fallen (no offence to the Indians). I get calls from phone companies at least a couple times a week and half the time I cannot understand what they are talking about, let alone be tempted to purchase anything.
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