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Hormonal influence on Immune system...

HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex

Elite Mentor
Platinum
Often times users of androgenic compounds report a sick feeling when introducing these exogenous agents into their systems,as well as post cycle when these molecules exit the system.The following sheds a little light on why that is.Cytokinetic production seems to proliferate at the onset of a disturbance of homeostasis,and this in turn can wreak havoc on immuno-functionality.There is so much more to be learned here,but at least this offers a miniscule piece of the genetic puzzle.


Interaction between the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis and the immunological system.

Gaillard RC.

Division of Endocrinology, Diabetes and Metabolism, University Hospital (CHUV), CH-1011 Lausanne, Switzerland.

The endocrine and immune systems are interrelated via a bidirectional network in which hormones affect immune function and, in turn, immune responses are reflected in neuroendocrine changes. This bidirectional communication is possible because both systems share a common "chemical language" that results from a sharing of common ligands (hormones and cytokines) and their specific receptors. Cytokines are important partners in this crosstalk. They play a role in modulating the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis responses at all three levels: the hypothalamus, the pituitary gland and the adrenals. Acute effects of cytokines are produced at the central nervous system level, particularly the hypothalamus, whereas pituitary and adrenal actions are slower and are probably involved during prolonged exposure to cytokines such as during chronic inflammation or infection. Several mechanisms have been proposed by which peripheral cytokines may gain access to the brain. They include an active transport through the blood-brain barrier, a passage at the circumventricular organ level, as well as a neuronal pathway through the vagal nerve. The immune-neuroendocrine interactions are involved in numerous physiological and pathophysiological conditions and the interactions with the HPA axis may represent a mechanism through which the immune system, by stimulating the production of glucocorticoids, avoids an overshoot of inflammatory response. The crosstalk between the immune and endocrine systems is important to homeostasis, since the interactions can produce various appropriate adaptative responses when homeostasis is threatened.
 
Good post HUCK, I posted this idea over on ANIMAL's board awhile back. As usual, ANIMAL went into one of his retarded diatribes about some unsupported theory he had concerning this topic.

Author Explanation of AndroFlu!
Animal


Joined: Dec 03, 2001
Posts: 1948
From: Parts unknown
Posted: 2002-02-17 17:38
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Just a hypothesis, but a damn good one if I do say so myself.

I think I will call it the 'Anflu' in deference to the author.

Anyhow, we all get the flu symptoms with compounds that have short or no esters. The symptoms are aching joints, sore muscles, tiredness, night sweats, etc.

Note that since these symptoms come from short estered andros those andros are also FAST ACTING, thereby having the ability to initiate quick changes in other hormone levels of the body, too!

Many AS have an effect of raising metabolism which is.........a raising of hGH, I, and/or T3 levels! Bingo! Night sweats!

A fast rise in T3 levels will make you what?
Tired and restless and give you a racing heart rate! Ta da!

The sore muscles and aching joint were the hardest to figure out, but since we have no estered compounds exacting quick changes on the OTHER hormones of the body, we have large amounts of WATER going into the muscles due to creatine being stored and/or glycogen stores going up! Both of those can make you feel sluggish as well.

And finally, it's also likely that many of these andros are causing alterations which the normal levels of aldosterone in the body can't keep up with for a few days and now you have water in places where it usually isn't so high which causes a change in osmotic pressure in may tissues and in the JOINTS!

All Heil the King!

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killerdice


Joined: Jan 15, 2002
Posts: 59 Posted: 2002-02-17 21:05
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Very good Hypothesis!!

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cockdezl


Joined: Jan 23, 2002
Posts: 20
From: Georgia
Posted: 2002-02-17 21:32
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Before you go patting yourself on the back, I would like to add to this topic:

1) I have never, nor have I ever heard of anyone complain of fever/flu-like feelings on T3, until the dose becomes high (>50mcg/day). At 25mcg, which is much higher than what is being released from TBG, I have never felt any discomfort, in fact, I don't feel anything.

2) My guess is that the pyrogenic action of steroids is related to their 17-keto metabolite, etiocholanolone. It is well known that this metabolite causes fever due to its effect on Interleukin 1 release:

Steinetz BG, Randolph C, Werner R, Mahoney CJ.

"Pyrogenicity of etiocholanolone and interleukin-1 in New and Old World Monkeys."
Proc Soc Exp Biol Med. 1998 Apr;217(4):435-8.

This effect on cytokines may also explain the aches and pains noticed by many:

De Rossi M, Bernasconi P, Baggi F, de Waal Malefyt R, Mantegazza R.

"Cytokines and chemokines are both expressed by human myoblasts: possible relevance for the immune pathogenesis of muscle inflammation."
Int Immunol. 2000 Sep;12(9):1329-35.



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Animal


Joined: Dec 03, 2001
Posts: 1948
From: Parts unknown
Posted: 2002-02-17 22:44
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Damn, all AS have the same metabolite and nobody can feel 25mcg of t3 but me?

Oh well, we'll have to accept all those other theories which are NONE and all AS cause inflammation, too. Ok, I'm going back to school tomorrow!

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Animal


Joined: Dec 03, 2001
Posts: 1948
From: Parts unknown
Posted: 2002-02-18 10:09
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BTW, the joint pain is very much like what some of us feel when the atmospheric pressure changes rapidly. That happens FASTER than the body can compensate for and then adjusts after a day or so which is about exactly how long the androflu joint pain lasts.

But maybe we get a blast O cytokines and inflammation when the weather changes, too?

And no, I'm not being a smartass because YOU have to look at the facts. If we go by metabolites and cytokines, then all AS in a class or of a certain structure would cause the SAME PROBLEM for all users and the SAME PROBLEM for the SAME USER of a similar AS producing that metabolite.

We know that those hypothesis are not correct whatsover for ALL! We do know that some AS are able to change water and creatine and glycogen levels in the cells by WHATEVER mechanism, but those changes do not depend on metabolites or cytokines.

Let's look. Depending on dosage, a close personal friend would get flu symptoms on tren and sometimes after 1 week or two weeks. That should be a standard if related to metabolites.

But the killer to the 'other' proposed theory is looking at relatives of T such as 4AD, 1T, Adione, Tne, Tp, Sos, Te, and on.
Not many, if any will claim of androflu from Te or adione. 4AD set's in within 1-2 days and in the same solution so does 1T and the 1T is a little rougher. Sos hurts like a bitch at the site, but gives the friend no flu, so there goes the inflammation theory. They get it mildly on Tne if all depending on dose and never on Tp.

So are all the metabolites different and where's the cytokines coming from? I realize it's not your research, but if the 'research' doesn't stand across the board to explain all the structures in the same family in the same solution, then it's junk.

[ This Message was edited by: Animal on 2002-02-18 11:17 ]

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Animal


Joined: Dec 03, 2001
Posts: 1948
From: Parts unknown
Posted: 2002-02-21 02:27
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Now that I look back on it, did anybody say anything about fever? I think I may have mentioned faster metabolism and heart rate and feeling warmer, but not a fever like you get with the flu.

Also, I bet the nobody sweats from just 4-6iu of HGH either and that must raise t3 over the equivalent of 50mcg, right?

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Animal


Joined: Dec 03, 2001
Posts: 1948
From: Parts unknown
Posted: 2002-02-23 01:29
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Gee, looks like 'Mr Science' of the 'Milk gets hammered' thread doesn't have any 'science' to say.

Maybe no correlation to anything he says?


Hmmm, scienceboy, you know that deca is the greatest anabolic ever and doesn't shut down HPTA, right! Funny how that is wrong because the 'mass epidemiological study of AS users' have proven that dead wrong. Hmmm, causation, correlation, or dickinassation? HAHAHA!

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Animal


Joined: Dec 03, 2001
Posts: 1948
From: Parts unknown
Posted: 2002-02-24 05:15
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Groovy baby! No abstract was ever posted, either! Hehehe! Sure musta been a good ghost theory.
 
Notice the number of unrelated topics that ANIMAL throws into a rebuttal? I think this may be related to the number of voices in his head.
 
LMAO!He always does that,rambles off into never-never land,usually in between bursts of angry insults to anyone who doesn't reply with"Animal,you're the smartest guy in the world,smooch-smooch,kiss-kiss"...
 
Huck , I've had bad sides when on since having to take synthyroid everyday do you know how gear would effect my t3 & t4 levels while on because I seem to stay sick while on, in bed even most of the time just get out of bed to eat and train lol? Some of the symptoms are extreme red face, heart racing, overtired?
 
PIT, androgens cause a reduction in T3 levels in normal men, either from displacing T4 from its carrier protein (TBG) or from a reduction in TBG...I forget which one. Since you are taking synthetic T4, you may be experiencing a hyperthyroidal effect.
 
Does all this neuro-endocrine crap mean anything to us?

The well-known pathway is production of (interleukin) IL-1b, IL-6, tnf-alpha in response to antigenic/immune challange (LPS from bacteria for instance).. These cytokines induce synthesis of prostaglandins from aracadonic acid-- this is what makes you feel like shit when you're sick.. Somehow, these soluble cytokines are able to relay a chemical message to the brain and act on the HPA to increase CRH, ACTH levels which then increase cortisol synthesis in the adrenals.. The cortisol acts in a classic negative feedback mechanism to lower production of cytokines.. Cortisol also blocks the transcription of COX1 enzyme (makes aracadonic acid derivatives).. In essence, the cortisol helps alleviate the feel-like-shit response from an immune-challange.

Asprin and related derivatives block the COX1 enzyme as well...



Now, what does this mean to the average BBer?? Not shit..

This neuro-endocrine response involves CORTICOsteroids.. What, if any, role androgens play in this is not well known..

Andy
 
if androgens reduce the level of t3, wouldn't he be experiencing hypothyroidal effect?


cockdezl said:
PIT, androgens cause a reduction in T3 levels in normal men, either from displacing T4 from its carrier protein (TBG) or from a reduction in TBG...I forget which one. Since you are taking synthetic T4, you may be experiencing a hyperthyroidal effect.
 
there is some evidence that steroids have a positive effect on the body's immune system. I have listed a bibliography from M.Mooneys site(exellent reading for all)
=============================================
Anabolic Steroids -
Literature References Of Their Potential Uses For Immune Therapy
by Michael Mooney & Carl Pileri (from Issue No, 3, May, 1996)
This is a summary of literature references that show that anabolic steroids may benefit several immune diseases. If your doctor is skeptical of your desire to experiment with anabolic steroid (AS) therapy, show this to them. Note: there aren't many studies yet on anabolic steroids and HIV. More soon.



Masi AT et al, "Hormonal and pregnancy relationships to rheumatoid arthritis: convergent effects with immunologic and microvascular systems." Sem Arth and Rheu (1995) Aug. 25.1: 1-27
Comment: lower endogenous testosterone associated with higher incidence of rheumatoid arthritis (RA).

Martens HF et al, "Decreased testosterone levels in men with rheumatoid arthritis: effect of low dose prednisone therapy." J Rheum (1994) Aug. 21.8: 1427-31
Comment: testosterone deficiency gives greater severity of RA and problems w/ PRED therapy.

Van Vollenhoven RF et al, "Estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone: can they be used to treat autoimmune diseases?" Cleveland Clinic J Med, 1994 Jul-Aug, 61(4):276-84
Comment: testosterone and DHEA show promise while estrogens aggravate systemic lupus erythematosis.

Athreya BH et al, "Adeno-hypophyseal and sex hormones in pediatric rheumatic diseases." J Rheum (1993) Apr, 20.4 : 725-30
Comment: low testosterone associated w/ worse lupus and RA.

Cutolo M et al, "Androgen replacement therapy in male patients with rheumatoid arthritis." Arth and Rheum (1991) Jan, 34.1 : 1-5
Comment: testosterone useful in rheumatoid arthritis therapy.

Steward A et al, "Effects of androgens in models of rheumatoid arthritis." Agents and Actions (1992) Mar, 35.3-4: 268-72
Comment: testosterone had significant inhibitory effects on inflammation and cartilage erosion.

Lyden E et al, "Effects of nandrolone propionate on experimental tumor growth and cancer cachexia." Metab, (1995) Apr, 44.4 : 445-51
Comment: nandrolone didn’t affect tumor growth, but helped cachexia.

Ghia M et al, "Assay of stanozolol for tumor initiating and promoting activity in two rat liver foci bioassays." Ca Letters (1992) 63 : 203-209
Comment: no substantial evidence of stanozolol carcinogenicity even in high doses.

Steroid Receptors and Disease Sheridan PJ et al, eds., pgs. 297-308.
Comment: excellent book detailing benefits of many anabolic-androgenic steroids in auto-immune arthritis, Sjogren’s syndrome, thyroiditis, lupus, etc.

Mendenhall CL et al, "Anabolic steroid effects on immune function: differences between analogues." J Steroid Biochem Molec Biol (1990) 37.1 : 71-76
Comment: some stimulatory effect on cell-mediated immune function w/ oxandrolone, and stanozolol.

Li ZG et al, "Effect of gonadal steroids on the production of IL-1 and IL-6 by blood mononuclear cells in vitro." Clin and Exp Rheu (1993) 11: 157-162
Comment: testosterone decreased the catabolic IL-1.

Huys JV,et al, "Effect of nandrolone decanoate on T-cell lymphocytes during radiotherapy." Clin Ther (1979) 2.5: 352-357
Comment: nandrolone exerts protective effect on lymphocytes during radio-therapy.

Ooshika Y et al, "Effect of an anabolic steroid on the cellular immunity and post-operative evaluation of uterine cervical cancer." Jap J Cancer & Chemo (1984) Oct, 11.10 : 2177-84
Comment: nandrolone enhanced macrophage and cell-mediated immune activity, prevented catabolism, and had no effect on tumor growth.

Calabrese LH et al, "The effects of anabolic steroids and strength training on the human immune response." Med Sci Sports Exerc (1989) Aug, 21.4: 386-92
Comment: anabolic steroids increase natural killer cell activity, which can be important in disease like AIDS or cancer, but had a suppressive effect on immunoglobulins, especially IgA.
Belch JJF, et al. "The effect of increasing fibrinolysis in patients with rheumatoid arthritis: A double blind study of stanozolol. Quart J Med (1986) 58(225):19-27
Comment: stanzolol (Winstrol) improved flexibility and decreased pain, possibly by improving removal of joint fibrin.
 
that was very useful information, thank you
 
jboldman said:
if androgens reduce the level of t3, wouldn't he be experiencing hypothyroidal effect?



I thought about this, too, but my reasoning was that PIT is taking synthetic T4 for his condition. Under normal circumstances a healthy thyroid would be secreting small amounts of T4, which we would probably not see any symptoms, but if one takes, say 100mcg of Synthroid every day, and there is not enough TBG to bind to, then there is going to be alot more "free T4" to get converted to T3. In a short period of time this T3 will be metabolized and excreted, but it may have enough time to cause a hyperthyroidal state.

This is only a guess.
 
I was taking 100 mcg of synthyroid everyday and did not reduce it any the first cycle since having to take the synthyroid and I think it caused what i call the cycle from hell.When i started the second cycle I reduced it down some because i read in one study that it should be reduced from 25 to 50 % while on, and it wasn't as bad as the first. I was extremly sick the whole 9 weeks on the first. My body felt like it was fighting to gain and to lose at the same time extreme tomato face sweating like a dog burning fellings in my muscles like acid in my veins. I gained 22 lbs and kept 98 % of what i gained so i guess it was worth it lol, but i do think i went from hypo to hyperthyroid like the bro said, but i would like to know what the thyroid is doing after i start I've done some research but didn't find much, any of you gurus know how the thyroid works with gear or know what i should do to have less sides?
 
Outtlaw said:
Why the fuck are you bumping threads from 3 years ago???!!!!!! As if people dont know how to use the search engine.

If you don't like these threads then pass over them you fuck stick! Many of these threads have a lot of good reading and info. I was using the search engine myself to look up some old threads. Some of these threads need to come out from the depths for new readers to learn from and also add to. If you don't have anything constructive to add, then don't ruin them by posting your lame-ass sarcastic comments.

Just so you know, i'm gonna bump up some more threads tonight for some of the members to read.......Think i'll do a search using cockdezl as a cross-refererence.

THANKS!
BMJ
 
MR. BMJ said:
If you don't like these threads then pass over them you fuck stick! Many of these threads have a lot of good reading and info. I was using the search engine myself to look up some old threads. Some of these threads need to come out from the depths for new readers to learn from and also add to. If you don't have anything constructive to add, then don't ruin them by posting your lame-ass sarcastic comments.

Just so you know, i'm gonna bump up some more threads tonight for some of the members to read.......Think i'll do a search using cockdezl as a cross-refererence.

THANKS!
BMJ
Then why dont you add something to it. You dont even have anything constructive to add to the threads. What makes it even worse is that you're bumping threads primarily based on medical theories derived from experimentation. And as we all know, things change every day when it comes to medical theories. What we think today may be totally different than what we think 3yrs from now. So the fact that you're bumping threads from 3yrs ago doesnt necesarily have any pertinence.
 
Apparently you don't know how to read! I mentioned bumping them up for newer members to read and "add to." Therefore, if anything has changed then they can add to it. I find it hard to believe that anybody, but yourself, has a problem reading posts from cockdezl, J Boldman, Andy13, and Huck. Since when does medical research, studies, experimentation, and theories have no place for these boards. You might as well not even post here then because that is what these boards are primarily based on (as well as personal experimentation). And yes, I know change is inevitable in the world of science and experimentation, so maybe there are some members out there that can add to it so I can also learn from and get updated on.

Then again, we can wade through all the threads here that are asked about 20x's per day on average.

I'm not even gonna explain myself further. Shit, since when did bumping a quality thread become a problem around here?

BMJ
 
Nothing wrong with wanting to elaborate on older threads to increase our knowledge. You're right, we're here to help each other out. I just would've thought that when you bump a thread from yrs ago that you would have something constructive to add to it. No offense towards you (as I do respect your opinions), but I have more respect for people who are able to think and theorize for themselves, which in turn can create MORE thought and theorization among the other readers so we can all learn more, rather than just bumping a thread and waiting for someone else to create a thought process for you.

Bump all the good threads you wish. You've been around for a long time and we can use more people like that on the boards. So I encourage you to use your knowledge to also comment on some of these threads in order to help educate some of the newer, and less knowledgable members.
 
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