Here's what I've decided...

[bertp]

Here's what my cycle looks like. I'm looking to start in a couple of weeks.

Week 1
3000mg Ttokkyo cyp
1200mg Ttokkyo eq
25mg Reforvit-B/day
300mg clomid (1st day) 100mg clomid (3rd day on - EOD)

Week 2-8
1000mg Ttokkyo cyp
400mg Ttokkyo eq
25mg Reforvit-B/day
Not sure but might take Novaldex 20mg if needed (either on non-clomid days or ED)

Week 9-12
continue clomid-add HCG as needed
would Proviron be good at this time?

Also Proscar or Propecia weeks 1-8 unless someone here thinks I should keep taking it 'til all the test clears out- like around week 11. Also, how many mg is needed? I know the Proscar is 5mg and the Propecia is just 1mg. I've heard that 1mg is plenty.

Please, anyone, feel free to point out any flaws. My main concerns are making sure I don't lose my hair, so I need advice on the Proscar. I've never used it before. Also, of course, I'm concerned about keeping the gains I make on this cycle. I'm content with the structure of the AS more or less, I'm more concerned with how to come off correctly. Am I using clomid at the right times. The guy who recommends this cycle for mass (actually I modified it a little) says to take the clomid from day 1. Am I missing anything that could help retain the LBM I gain? Or anything else during the cycle for that matter. What about the Proviron? Necessary? Or is end of cycle wrong time for it? Thanks in advance.

 

[MaxBiceps]

Yikes!! Save your clomid for post cycle and use the hcg instead.
3000mgs of cyp?? Better get some nolva too. Make that some
arimidex. Take 1mg of finasteride in morning, one at night and
do this until three weeks after your last shot.

Anyone else got something to add?

 

[bigpimp]

yeah bro....save the clomifene for post cycle....it will just hinder your gains you should get great results from this assuming your diet and training regime is good

 

[basskiller]

I think you read Andy13's post about frontloading.... dude this was a theory... you had better be careful....

that's a lot of juice.... rethink your cycle

 

[MaxBiceps]

I think you read Andy13's post about frontloading.... dude this was a theory... you had better be careful....

that's a lot of juice.... rethink your cycle

I agree. I get itchy nipples just looking at your cycle. Even a gram a week
is pretty nuts. Especially for an inexperienced user.

 

[WannaImpress]

bertp

Damn, unless you got several cycles under your belt more than likely all the guys on here will tell you thats to much gear. 3000mgs of Cyp first week, walking test bomb! Might want to rethink your cycle bro. you have enough their for 2-3 cycles!

 

[maxes21]

lol

holly shit bro i hope you have done some cycles in the past, those are some high dosages, and that 3000mg is 15ml of test including 6ml of eq the first week, i hope your injecting in both legs both glutes and both of your delts cause thats alot of ml to be shooting. good luck bro and cant wait to see what some mods say about this cycle, you better use that nolva, but i would get liquiex if i were u and use the clomid after cycle.

 

[maxes21]

btw i dont think ill ever use 5 bottles of test cyp and 2 bottles of eq in one cycle, well maybe the 2 bottles of eq.he he he

 

[bertp]

Just for the record, I've done gear for 15 years and I am experienced. I'm just looking for something other than the typical pyramid, taper down, etc.. I never really thought about this (front loading) before, I have used a gram a week before along with other gear (deca, eq, d-bol, tren, etc. - not all at the same time, I switch out) and got pretty good results. My body handled it just fine. I agree 3g sounds like a shit load, but it's just the first week. Ya'll think that one week will cause any real problems? The 1g a week didn't give me any real problems (gyno included) and I wasn't even taking Novaldex. I took Chrysin instead, which in retrospect, probably didn't do a damn thing anyway. I do have Novaldex and plan to take it though. I just thought instead of waiting for half my cycle to be over before I really start making gains, I could jumpstart it since I'm only going 8 weeks. Others have said this cycle has worked great for them, including 21inch_arms. I just want to make sure I come off right. BTW-Brock Strasser is the author of the article I read about this cycle. I did see Andy13's post though, same basic premise. Why would the clomid limit gains. Although I've used gear many years with good results, I've only used HCG for coming off not clomid. So I admit, I could use a little more info on exactly how the clomid works.

 

[WannaImpress]

bertp

Well you obviously have had some experience with gear, just can't believe you haven't heard that much about clomid since everyone pretty much uses it post cycle to keep the majority of their gains! Heres a post by Stew from a while back, enjoy:


Testosterone production begins at the hypothalamus,which scans blood levels of estrogens,androgens and other pertinent hormones.In a presence of low androgens and estrogens the hypothalamus will produce leutenizing-hormone-releasing-hormone(LHRH)which in turn stimulates the pituitary to produce leutenizing hormone(LH).LH then signals the leydig cells in the testicles to begin producing testosterone.Hence the Hypothalamic Pituitary Testicular Axis(more commonly referred to as H-P-T-A),as production is ran in that particular order.Now on to the clomid...

Clomid is a selective estrogen receptor modulator(much like nolvadex,only their binding capacities are more aggressive in seperate areas).Clomid stimulates L-H-R-H/LH production by binding to ESTROGEN receptors on the hypothalamus and pituitary,thus giving the illusion of a low presence of circulating estrogen.Note the key word here-ESTROGEN.CLOMID DOES NOT BIND ANDROGEN.Therefore,on a cycle of moderate to high amounts of ANDROGENS,clomid will have no effect whatsoever on endogenous testosterone production,as we are in a state of ANDROGENIC inhibition.It's post cycle,when blood levels of androgens begin to normalize and the typical estrogenic rebound/lag occurs,that clomid is able to re-initialize this process of testosterone production.Hope this clears up how clomid works and why to save it for post cycle,unless you're using it as an anti-estrogen...

How do we know when to administer clomid therapy,and how much should we use to get the desired effects?First you have to figure out the activity life/clearance time of your particular ester.They don't have to be completely cleared from your system,just enough that androgen levels are within normal to high normal ranges.For instance sust's longest acting and most potent ester,the undecanoate ester clears your system in roughly 3-4 weeks.So beginning clomid therapy 3 weeks after your last injection would be ideal.This is the pattern I would run my clomid in...

Day 1)300mgs...2 tabs every 4 hours or so.This will drive up blood levels of the drug for an immediate "therapeutic" response(one that would normally take many consecutive days of usage to be reached)and get the drug working aggressively towards re-initializing endogenous hormonal production.

Days 2-11)100mgs/day(bothtabs can be taken together now,as it's half life is so long it will make no difference...

Days 12-21)50mgs/day...

Day 22)DONE!

 

[bertp]

Thanks for the details. I do know that clomid is for coming off. I also know that it is an anti-estrogen. I just wasn't sure scientifically how it worked, if it was different than HCG in the way that it works. I too would rather save it for the end of the cycle and just use Novaldex during, but Brock recommended taking it all the way through from day one. Don't see why, unless it's a better anti-estrogen than Novaldex. Anyone know? Unless there's some other benefit to taking it during I'll save it 'til after like everyone here has recommended and just use the Novaldex. Anymore thoughts on the 3g test for the first week? I know I can handle the 1g a week since I've already done it with great results. It just took to damn long to really start making major gains, then once I did, it was time to wrap it up. I'd rather hit it hard for 8 weeks, then try to drag it out for 12 to compensate for the delay in the gains. It seems like the gains really start slowing up after a couple of months anyway. Another benefit is that I can take my 2 months off and hit another cycle sooner.

 

[bertp]

bump

 

[Maxx Out]

Sounds like this is your first cycle. Is it?

 

[MadCow1]

Your initial post had the first cycle ring to it. You later stated that you had a fair amount of experience.

I just can't seem to reconcile the fact that someone with 15 years of juice under their belts asks the questions you asked in your initial post, doesn't know about clomid or front loading, and had someone else draw up his cycle.

I'm not accusing you of bullshit but this is somehow more scarry to me. Someone shooting 1gram + cycles for years and seemingly very uneducated.

 

[2Thick]

I just want to know the results (when you get out of the hospital)....

 

[bertp]

I didn't say I know everything there is to know about gear. But, in my 15 cycles I've managed to go from 147 to 258lbs. Of course this was over a period of 15 years, and as I learn more, the gains seem to pickup again each time. So most of my gains have been in the past 6-7 years as my training and diet have improved. I atttibute my lack of knowledge in some areas to being a little too trusting of friends telling me how to use gear (and Bill Phillips with his damn outdated Anabolic Reference Guide). I'm now trying to make up for it by doing lots of research via this site and others. Nobody drew up my cycle. If you look at what the Gramabol cycle entails on the Testosterone site, you'll see that it's includes only test and clomid. Plus, my cycle is two weeks shorter. My cycle has a bit more than that. And I will no doubt do the gram of test a week because I've already proven to myself from experience that I can handle it. The only thing I've really included from the cycle that I didn't have experience with is the frontloading. Now, given that I am who I say that I am, is one week of frontloading at the recommended dosages above going to cause any major problems over and above what 1 gram a week would cause? I been told by several people on this board, including 21inch_arms who is one of the moderators, that he did not have side effects any worse than at one gram. And he gained a shit load of muscle. So, any one who actually has experience with this type of cycle, I would like to get a few more opinions on your results. Thanks...