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Texas Monster
New member
Was reading on another board about HCG going into PCT.
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I’ve discussed this topic a number of times with some of the veterans on this board and they know my position on the subject of PCT.
Now, I feel compelled to address it openly because I see more and more of what I characterized as “failed PCTs.” Heck, there must be one thread every other day on someone’s unsuccessful attempt to recover. So, I perceive that there is a need for this discussion and I’ll give my viewpoint accordingly.
First, it seems that the use of HCG on cycle has created, for many, a false sense of security regarding the continuous function of their testes while on cycle. Yes, 250 iu or 500 iu of HCG a week while on cycle **may** keep your testes functional but most never really know, they just ASSUME. That is the first mistake I regularly see. This assumption often leads to the next mistake which is…
SERM only PCT and no, it is not enough! I know many will argue this point and say “If it is only a light cycle SERM only PCT is OK.” To that, I say, look at all the 500mg test for 12 week cycles that have tried the SERM only approach and failed. It is not enough.
Finally, there is a general lack of accounting for the AMOUNT and HALF LIVE of the AAS used on cycle. Specificly, you don’t want to start your PCT while you still have supra-physiological levels of AAS in your system. What is a non-supra-physiological level? To keep it simple, it is the point where there is less than 200 mg of an active AAS in your system. That is not a perfect estimate but it will work for most people. By taking the time to do this math, you will greatly improve your chance at recover. So, account for the dosage and drug(s) used in planning your PCT
For long esters (cyp/ent/deconate) estimate 7 days half life
If you ran 1000 mg of test cyp/ent a week then plan to start the HCG blast between 17-21 days after your last shot.
How did I get that? Simple…using the 7 day half life estimate.
@ 1000mg a week of test cyp/ent 7 days after your last shot there is 500 mg active in the blood. 14 days after the last shot, there is 250 mg active in the blood, at 21 days after the last shot, there is 125 mg active in the blood.
It doesn’t matter what the drug is it only matters what ester is attached to it. So, make sure you do the homework and look up the half life for your drugs and figure out how long it will take you to approximate “normal blood levels.”
So what is the answer? A comprehensive PCT plan that address all parts of the recovery process. Yes, that means an HCG blast, even if you use HCG on cycle! It includes 2 SERMS because they work syngerisitcly together to enhance test levels, and an AI to mitigate aromatization that will cause suppression of the HPTA through the feedback loop.
Many will say “you don’t need HCG and two SERMs, and an AI for PCT. That is just overkill.”
To that I’d say, maybe, but would you rather go overboard and make sure your get HPTA recover or not go far enough and remain shutdown? That is what we are really talking about here, right, recover? So why try to skimp or take the lightest PCT possible when there is no real harm in going the whole 9 nine yards and doing everything possible to ensure recover?
Okay, so now I’ve stated my position. What do I suggest? Well, I suggest what I just did to exit from 2 years of HRT. By the way, it is very similar to the PCT that I’ve used on myself for almost 20 years and with countless others. The blood tests I’ve collected over the years support its effectiveness. In fact, I just tested at 1048 ng/dl on my last blood draw.
I’ve linked a Google Doc spreadsheet with the protocol that I found to be most effective.
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All of this just seems so wrong to what I read on this board.
Some of the things that stood out were:
1) Waiting to start HCG therapy:
2) The use of nolva
3) The use of letro ( We dont want to drive estro into the ground right?)
So correct me if I am wrong mods but we want to.
Use HCG while we are still shut down to restore testicular function then plan on timing pct when both HCG and Exogenous test clears: This starts the last 2 weeks of the cycle and lasts 2 weeks past cycle ( for long esters ).
Use only a low dose of clomid after HCG thereapy for only 4 weeks.
Avoid driving Estrogen into the ground.
In his treatment he is advising the HCG blast 21 days after long ester pin. This means the blast would last around 2 weeks so you would not be starting your serm PCT until 5 weeks after PIN ????
This has got to be wrong.
QUOTE QUOTE QUOTE QUOTE QUOTE QUOTE QUOTE
I’ve discussed this topic a number of times with some of the veterans on this board and they know my position on the subject of PCT.
Now, I feel compelled to address it openly because I see more and more of what I characterized as “failed PCTs.” Heck, there must be one thread every other day on someone’s unsuccessful attempt to recover. So, I perceive that there is a need for this discussion and I’ll give my viewpoint accordingly.
First, it seems that the use of HCG on cycle has created, for many, a false sense of security regarding the continuous function of their testes while on cycle. Yes, 250 iu or 500 iu of HCG a week while on cycle **may** keep your testes functional but most never really know, they just ASSUME. That is the first mistake I regularly see. This assumption often leads to the next mistake which is…
SERM only PCT and no, it is not enough! I know many will argue this point and say “If it is only a light cycle SERM only PCT is OK.” To that, I say, look at all the 500mg test for 12 week cycles that have tried the SERM only approach and failed. It is not enough.
Finally, there is a general lack of accounting for the AMOUNT and HALF LIVE of the AAS used on cycle. Specificly, you don’t want to start your PCT while you still have supra-physiological levels of AAS in your system. What is a non-supra-physiological level? To keep it simple, it is the point where there is less than 200 mg of an active AAS in your system. That is not a perfect estimate but it will work for most people. By taking the time to do this math, you will greatly improve your chance at recover. So, account for the dosage and drug(s) used in planning your PCT
For long esters (cyp/ent/deconate) estimate 7 days half life
If you ran 1000 mg of test cyp/ent a week then plan to start the HCG blast between 17-21 days after your last shot.
How did I get that? Simple…using the 7 day half life estimate.
@ 1000mg a week of test cyp/ent 7 days after your last shot there is 500 mg active in the blood. 14 days after the last shot, there is 250 mg active in the blood, at 21 days after the last shot, there is 125 mg active in the blood.
It doesn’t matter what the drug is it only matters what ester is attached to it. So, make sure you do the homework and look up the half life for your drugs and figure out how long it will take you to approximate “normal blood levels.”
So what is the answer? A comprehensive PCT plan that address all parts of the recovery process. Yes, that means an HCG blast, even if you use HCG on cycle! It includes 2 SERMS because they work syngerisitcly together to enhance test levels, and an AI to mitigate aromatization that will cause suppression of the HPTA through the feedback loop.
Many will say “you don’t need HCG and two SERMs, and an AI for PCT. That is just overkill.”
To that I’d say, maybe, but would you rather go overboard and make sure your get HPTA recover or not go far enough and remain shutdown? That is what we are really talking about here, right, recover? So why try to skimp or take the lightest PCT possible when there is no real harm in going the whole 9 nine yards and doing everything possible to ensure recover?
Okay, so now I’ve stated my position. What do I suggest? Well, I suggest what I just did to exit from 2 years of HRT. By the way, it is very similar to the PCT that I’ve used on myself for almost 20 years and with countless others. The blood tests I’ve collected over the years support its effectiveness. In fact, I just tested at 1048 ng/dl on my last blood draw.
I’ve linked a Google Doc spreadsheet with the protocol that I found to be most effective.
END QUOTE END QUOTE END QUOTE END QUOTE END QUOTE
All of this just seems so wrong to what I read on this board.
Some of the things that stood out were:
1) Waiting to start HCG therapy:
2) The use of nolva
3) The use of letro ( We dont want to drive estro into the ground right?)
So correct me if I am wrong mods but we want to.
Use HCG while we are still shut down to restore testicular function then plan on timing pct when both HCG and Exogenous test clears: This starts the last 2 weeks of the cycle and lasts 2 weeks past cycle ( for long esters ).
Use only a low dose of clomid after HCG thereapy for only 4 weeks.
Avoid driving Estrogen into the ground.
In his treatment he is advising the HCG blast 21 days after long ester pin. This means the blast would last around 2 weeks so you would not be starting your serm PCT until 5 weeks after PIN ????
This has got to be wrong.
