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Go ahead and flame me...

  • Thread starter Thread starter flickenu
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flickenu

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Ok 1st of all i'm damn sick of seeing nothing but posts with titles like "Bomb Afghanastan, bomb this bomb that, kill towelheads"
Most of you don't know the half of what is going on, you just like to side with the majority of people and feel comfortable doing so. To all of you- Get some fucking leadership, and throw in 2 tablespoons of knowledge while you're at it. Keep in mind I said the majority of you, theres actually quite a few who know all sorts of shit about this, i.e. MOD and others. i'll admit i made some stupid replies about this the past couple of days because of the heat of the moment and i didn't know the whole story either. But, I have a couple of questions for everyone-
1) Who are we going to bomb? If you answer Afghanistan, proceed to question 2.
2)Why? If you answer because the Taliban is allowing Bin Ladin to reside there proceed to question 3.
3) Why do we have to bomb the whole country instead of just extraditing him out of there? I sure as hell think afghanistan would give him up to avoid conflict with the US. IF they were to extradite him out of the country i'm sure thedeath penalty would be imminent to him as well as everyone else involved in everything thats happened.

Let's say they didnt extradite him- With the technology we have wouldn't it be possible to smart bomb the pinpointed location of where he is residing? I'm sure it's easier said than done, especially since we've been looking for this fucker for years and haven't been able to find him.

Another thing- Why is everyone so pissed off about palestinians celebrating this? I understand how you could think it is sickening but I think they have every right to celebrate. It's much the same as in ww2. The Jews (Palestinians) celebrating because Italy(USA) got bombed because Italy (USA) is an allie of Germany (Israel). If I were them I would probably celebrate also, palestinians get murdered by the israel military with the US supporting them.

The thing im most pissed off about is how everyone bitches about america until something happens to us and then they show patriotism. Where hte hell was your patriotism before this took place? It just pisses me off that half the people that say shit on here don't even know much about what's going on. THey just think, "towelheads bombed our country, kill them all" Fuckin conformists. Just because certain people did this to our country doesn't mean innocent ones should die.
HERES THE BIGGEST THING THATS BEEN PISSING ME OFF- People that speculate and stretch shit out like its a rubberband. You give them an inch they take a mile. It's like playing telephone on this damn chat board. People saying they're paying 12 dollars for gas, christ, give me a break. Everyone needs to learn not to say something unless they're almost positive it's true. Christ, these are the type of people that were the gossip queens in high school.


Well I hope i didnt piss anyone off too bad, if so, be it. I don't want to hear anyone questioning my loyalty to our country either, yes i feel bad about everything thats happened. Yes if we went to war I would be willing to go if needed. But our country sure as hell better give me a reason to go other than to be arrogant and show whos the boss. If the Taliban won't give him up, YES i think we should move in and find the fucker. and if resistance is showed, yes i think we should go to war with them, but obviously i dont think we should just start bombin away like so many of you do.


On an ending note- Fuck everyone who profiles middle eastern people in america because of this.:finger:
 
Good post with some good points, but what out rages me here in Ireland is the loss of thousends and thousends of innocent lives. If this were a war as these hairy fuckers like to think their fighting let them target legit target's, ie the armed forces. But to kill them many innocent people is beyond comprehension to everyone here on e/f.
As for the palo's celebrating, well their fucking animals anyway and I speak with experience on those fucker's. I've spent two tours of duty in Lebanon with the U.N. and even their the Lebanese threat them as animals. If they were so fucking good do you not think other arabs countries would put up a better fight in their (the Palo's) defence. Instat their interned in almost every middle east country were they sought refuge.
There's 350,000 Palo's in refugee camps accross Lebanon. The Lebos don't want them, the Isreali's won't let them cross the border. There banned from travelling to Syria and Jordan because their basically fucking animals.
Your right there has been alot said here in the heat of the moment, but let everyone get it off their chest. People here on e/f need a way to let out their emotions and this is the path of least resistance for the next few days.
You'll see things will settle down given a little time.
Peace
Martin
 
bouncer- I don't know anything about the palestinian people so I'm not going to judge them one way or another, but i know you wouldnt lie about them being animals. But animals or not, they do have a reason to be thankful for this, and yes it is sickening but if we were in their position i'm sure alot of us would be the same way.
 
1) Who are we going to bomb? If you answer Afghanistan, proceed to question 2.

The Afganies and probably other country, terrorist states!

2)Why? If you answer because the Taliban is allowing Bin Ladin to reside there proceed to question 3.

Because that's were the train and are indoctrinated into these groups that want to do nothing but destroy us.

3) Why do we have to bomb the whole country instead of just extraditing him out of there?

Because when you get rid of a cancer like this you have to destroy the entire infrastructor and will of the mechanism to operate. I.E. Japan and Germany in WWII.

If we had taken Emporer Hiro Hito from Japan or Hitler from Germany in WWII, it wold only steel the resolve of the people to fight.
 
bouncer said:
Good post with some good points, but what out rages me As for the palo's celebrating, well their fucking animals anyway and I speak with experience on those fucker's. I've spent two tours of duty in Lebanon with the U.N. and even their the Lebanese threat them as animals.

AND DO YOU KNOW WHY THEY TREAT THEM LIKE ANIMALS BOUNCER??
BECAUSE MOST OF THE LEBANESE POPULATION OVER THERE ARE IGNORANT SAVAGES AND ARE AGAINST THEM BECAUSE OF THERE ISLAMIC BELIEFS. I GUESS THAT IS OKAY DO ISNT IT??

If they were so fucking good do you not think other arabs countries would put up a better fight in their (the Palo's) defence. Instat their interned in almost every middle east country were they sought refuge.

AND HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT THE MAJORITY OF THE ARAB POPULATION IN THE MIDDLEEAST DO NOT WANT TO FIGHT AGAINST ISREAL?? YOU ARE WRONG, IF THEY HAD THE CHOICE TO FIGHT (WHICH THEY DONT) THEY WOULD FIGHT!!

There's 350,000 Palo's in refugee camps accross Lebanon. The Lebos don't want them, the Isreali's won't let them cross the border. There banned from travelling to Syria and Jordan because their basically fucking animals.

BRAVO MY FRIEND, FROM LOOKING AT THOSE COMMENTS IT SHOWS THAT YOU HAVE MORE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE MIDDLEEAST THEN I DO ABOUT COMPUTERS!!
Click to expand...
 
Strong_Man ,
I disagree with you , if emperor Hirohito or Hitler had been taken out , I doubt if there would have been ANYTHING left of their regimes. Erwin Rommel - supposedly one of the 10 greatest military commanders who has ever lived was involved in an assassination attempt on Hitler. He was well aware as was most of the German army that the advance into Russian soil was suicidal.
However , guerilla campaigns are different - about 600 years of conflict between Britain and Ireland will easily confirm that. I honestly don't think that this conflict will be solved by military intervention - of course many see different, but history should teach us one lesson at least - in spite of technology,equipment and training , eventually (may take generations) the greater weight of numbers will always prevail.
 
Madinka,

so are you saying that if sadam hussein was assasanated or yasser arafat then there regieme would be over??

Do u think the arab public have a choice of what leader they can have??
 
Strong_man.

Lets see where do I start....Mmmmmmmmm your talking rubbish.
In 1978 when Isreal invaded Lebanon in operation Latani Isreal was welcomed into the country by the Lebanese population who threw rice as a welcome greeting to the invading IDF. The Palos we're more than happy you see to be made refugee's in Lebanon.
Because as a people their traditionally nomadic and have never settled in any home land. Read Robisk Fisks book, Pity the Nation.
However then they turned their criminal ways against the lebanese population and held them in terror for almost 30 years. When the IDF defeated Arrafat, Arrafat took his forces from Beirut to Tripoli in Libya and thought they'd settle there awhile. But even Gaddafi got sick of them and snt them packing. I'm making this very simple for you to understand.

As regards my comments on the Lebanese holding them in refugee camps, I've been to the camps buddy. At the start of the present intifada the Syrian forces in Lebanon held seige to the camps in case the Palestinian refugees made a break for the border, the IDF had withdrew accross the border, thereby causing the IDF to invade again. At this time IDF aerial bombardment of Syrian positions in the south of the country were starting to take their toll on the Syrians, particularly their AA radar positions.

Anyway this is getting away from these terrible events of the last 2 days. I know all this because I'm just back from there having served from Oct 00 to May 01 in the south. Where btw the locals express (freely and openly) their hatred of the Palo's.

And no I don't understand how the palo's or anyone else is jumping for joy over this. We the Irish people have been oppressed by the british for 800 years and I did'nt see anyone celebrating when Canery Wharf went up, or Warrington, or when the INLA murder Airy Neive (sp'ing). When the IRA blow up Mounbatton boat the country was disgusted by it. I could go on.

If your computer knowledge was anywhere as good as my knowledge on the middle east you'll be doing pretty well for yourself there mate.
And I'm sure if America exacts it's revenge like it will do, there'll be very few American celebrating the killing over thousends of innocents by dancing on the streets of Manhatten.

Bouncer
 
Strong_Man ,
I definitely think the assination of Hussein would be wellcomed by the vast majority of Iraqis , if for no other reason than it would stop the bombing raids on their country. Infant mortality in Iraq is running around 15% there. If you can't accept that then why are so many Iraqis fleeing that country (to Australia recently,as it happens).
Arafat is a significantly different operator , I (perhaps I'm ignorant) have not read any reports linking him to mass genocides , and certainly not against his own people. I cannot say the same for Ariel Sharon , sadly.
What has happened over the past few days (and is still going on) is really truly awful , and everyone is entitled to be upset and angry - I am too, but for a few certain notables to take American pain , suffering and anger and direct it at their own enemies is a bit sick.
Peace brother.
Bouncer - Is that Robert Fisk you mean ?, the middle east journo with the (English) Independent. He tells it like it really is if that's the boy you're on about.
 
Yep thats him Mandy (hehehe) I've met him. He married an girl from Shaqra it's a village in IrishBatt, south Lebanon.

Bouncer

(sorry I missed you phone call last night)
 
To the comment that Numbers can bring a win

Unless there were millions of China men in Vietnam that we didn't know about, I think the U.S. learned that wasn't always the case....How many men did Russia have in Afghan back in the fight??It seems as if they had alot of men there as well

Once again I feel very saden that Arab Americans are going to be pounded on because of this. It's not right and I hope those that go after them are punished just as strong as anyone else for violence....I'm actually worried cause of an Aunt I have thats Indian that some Redneck fucker up in the DFW area might mistake her for Arab


As far as who might get bombed. Fuck the smart bombs you can't prove 100% effective to take someone out. the Taliban took over that country and I would be very surprised if anyone Freely voted them into power there. Since they supported those who are being considered the blame of whats happened recently they are going to pay the price. My Ex called me up yesterday crying cause another one of her brothers was killed last week during a fight against the Taliban. Needless to say she wished me luck in case I'm sent there cause her faimly has been fighting their for over 20 years and knows that if Troops are sent there it wont be easy if with high numbers
 
Bouncer

Have you know idea that the palestinians have been persecuted and treated like 10th class citizens by the lebanese??

I dont know what you expect from the palestinians!!
But you cant expect them to be civil and remourcefull after being rapped, tortured and killed by lebanese civilians merly because of there religon.

You think if you treat a nation like shit, torture them, chuck them out of there country, take there pride away and rape there wifes that there gonna be civil and remourcefull. Bro palestine have been persecuted by the british, jews and even Americans and they have no sympathy or help from anyone. You obviously have no idea what these people go through and I really dont blame them for feeling the way they do!!
 
You forgot the turk's as well.

As for being raped and tortured sure thats happened. Did you know the longest held hostage in Lebanon now is an Irish man, Kevin Joyce. Himself and another Irish soldier, Derek Smallhorn were kidnapped by the PLO. Dereks body was found mulilated. Kevin's was never found, of course he's missing presumed dead. He was 18. At the time they were helping to protect Palestinian civilians form shell fire.

When was the last time you were out there Strong ?

Bouncer
 
When was the last time you were out there Strong ?

Bouncer [/B][/QUOTE]

Actually bouncer,

I have been to the middleast several times, as I am originally palestinian! however I was born in the UK. I can assure you though bouncer, that my people and I are not animals. How can you expect a nation to have respect when they have not been respected by anyone. In the last 2 days 20 palestinians have been killed by isreali troops inside the west bank.

And bouncer dont bother flaming me because I couldnt give a rats ass what you got to say!! because your obviously a cocksucking ignorant fool that has nothing good to say...
 
If I'd known I was in a one sided discussion I would'nt have bothered.
I'm no lover of Isreal either, but I call it like I see it.
Anyway I'll consider this discussion closed. We'll have to agree to disagree.
Oh about being a cock sucker, well this cock sucker has done more for Palestians than I'll ever ask you to do for us.
One final thing, when I served there in 1988 UNIFIL was awarded the Nobel prize for peace. This at a time when I seen 5 comrades KIA by both Jews and Arabs.
Bouncer
 
Hold on there Strong Man,
The owner of the gym I use in Ireland has had a few tours in South Lebanon , and he told me personally of the devastation out there. Furthermore he told me that every year , one of the Irish troops dresses up as Santa Claus at Christmas to hand out gifts to the Arab kids. So please confine your comments to facts.
Holy shit bounce , I had never heard of the killing of that poor Irish kid , Jesus and mutiliation too , and I have never heard anything but sympathy for the Arabs from the Irish soldiers I know. Did you know the boy.
Strong_man - Check out who bouncer referred to on the Independent newspaper's web site (Robert Fisk), I think you'll find that this guy is TOTALLY honest in his reporting. Please read this story and get back to us.
http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=90514
I think you just shot the messenger pal.
Bouncer , man I'm obviously more ignorant than I thought - I can't believe they mutilated an Irishman , let alone anyone else , just goes to show...
 
Just to get back to you TxCollegeGuy ,
First of all I mean no disrespect to you or your country by my comments in your time of sorrow. I symphatise with all the poeple affected and hope that the sons-a-bitches who did this get what's comin.
Both Afghanistan and Vietnam were essentially guerilla campaigns , any idea on the number of Vietnamese deaths resulting? - ,much more than ten times the number of American.
The Afghani conflict was really a very dirty war , a recent Sunday Times (front page) - British newspaper exposing the fact that Britain and America were involved in supplying weaponry and training to the Mujaheddin. In any case , the number of rebels/terrorists greatly outnumbered the Russian troops , of course they had HIND helicopters and the like but the war was simply ridiculous, the rebels were hiding in the mountains and overall victory , if such a thing was even possible would have taken many years and cost far too much.
 
Yeah I neglected to add that I wasn't sure of the Exact numbers of Russians troops that were there, but the overall point and comparison between the two was that Man power and Tech. doesn't always assure a victory...


China took part in Vietnam and I could only fathom how many were actually fighting. From everything I have heard from those that were in Vietnam and have read the VC and NVA did alot to pull out their dead so I dont think we will ever really know how many people were killed. If by some chance we go into Afghan which is still to early to predict where we might go it's not going to be much different from what Russia went threw when they were there. I would imagine if we did we would combine with the Group fighting against the Taliban


I dont think the Taliban is going to allow Bin Laden to stay if it means the U.S. will unleash the military on them.

Yeah no disrespect was taken from your comments, though my opinions my vary from others I take nothing about others ideas as personal or directed to me
 
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What does all of this have to do with the USA being bombed? The US has been active with peace talks in the Mid East for a long time. It hasn't done any good because they are a bunch of animals in that part of the world. Just a few weeks ago the Israeli's were bombing the Palestinians and the US requested that they stop. Maybe I'm a dumbass country boy, but I don't see how the US can be blamed for anything happening to the towel head muslims.
 
Mandinka I posted a pic of me last christmas day dressed as santa with some children from Tibnine orphanage who we held a party for. Although their muslims celebrating christmas was'nt lost on the children there.

It's funny that Strong_man says he's a Palo living in the country that caused all the trouble in Palestine in the first place !. It was the English who first deported Palestinians out of Palestine. And they went because first they were given money and second becasue their nomads anyway it did'nt matter where they lived. They just wanted it easy. The when the Lebanese did'nt want them either they thought they'd just go home again.
I'll post that picture when I get home this evening.
The Orphanage in Tibnine is funded almost entirely by the Irish Government and when we pull out in December their left to fend for themselfs. It's the most heart breaking thing to see those little kids.

Peace

Bouncer
 
the afghans were getting butt raped byt the russian airforce until they were supplied stinger mislles. these things were so damn sophisticated at the time the russian airforce (their helicopter etc) got seriously screwed. their airforce was one of their biggest advantages

just adding on to what mandika said
 
Bump for Wodin's point--
We have to inflict massive pain on the average and yes "innocent" people. Cutting off Bin Laden's head is a first step, but we need to take something these people hold dear, a mosque or some other symbol and take it to the ground. If Iraq is involved we need to level Bahgdad.

If nothing else bomb these people back to a point where they can worry about how they are going eat and drink instead of how to to kill innocents on our shores.

All of you saying you "understand" how these people could do this because of the "pain" we've caused, haven't we been an allie of Britain for years? And haven't we been involved in the "peace process" for years with them and Ireland? Yet I don't seem to recall the Irish over year planting car bombs (WTC 1993),
nor blowing up our embassies, nor our navy ships. No it has ALWAYS been a fucking Islamic gutter person, and that's what they are, uneducated, unknowing and incapable of understanding this is 2001, not bible times. The fact that the leadership of these countries helps keep these people this only shows the contempt they feel for their own subjects. No outside learning, or radio, or internet, in other words no knowledge.....

I truly hope we drop some well placed Nukes and really underscore the point that we are tired of fucking with these people...it served us well and underscored our point in Japan.
 
I believe you Bouncer ,
but for someone who's people (StrongMan) has benefitted so much from the direct kindness of Irishmen - you just have to think - What an ignorant shite.
I'm sorry guys but both Pakistan and America have a lot to answer for w.r.t. Afghanistan. I have many American friends and family and I know that they would hate to think that these things were done in their name.
I'm angry as fuck now so I'm gettin offline - but peace to anyone out there with a heart as well as a brain.
 
WODIN said:
1) Who are we going to bomb? If you answer Afghanistan, proceed to question 2.

The Afganies and probably other country, terrorist states!

2)Why? If you answer because the Taliban is allowing Bin Ladin to reside there proceed to question 3.

Because that's were the train and are indoctrinated into these groups that want to do nothing but destroy us.

3) Why do we have to bomb the whole country instead of just extraditing him out of there?

Because when you get rid of a cancer like this you have to destroy the entire infrastructor and will of the mechanism to operate. I.E. Japan and Germany in WWII.

If we had taken Emporer Hiro Hito from Japan or Hitler from Germany in WWII, it wold only steel the resolve of the people to fight.
Click to expand...


I agree with you but one thing we should never forget: Ben Laden was helped back in 1984 by the CIA in his war against Soviet army....... so those bastards at the CIA (those of 84) should also be bombed to have created one of the biggest monster humanity had.........
 
bad example

the IRA recieved funding from america for many years. theyd never bomb america

a better example would be africa. many countries political situations have been incredibly worsened due to the cold war and they havent bombed america. or the drug barons of columbia
 
Originally posted by flickenu
It's much the same as in ww2. The Jews (Palestinians) celebrating because Italy(USA) got bombed because Italy (USA) is an allie of Germany (Israel).
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Now just what the fuck does this bit of drivel mean??!! I mean, what in goddamn Hell are you attempting say???!!!
 
Plifter

If I drew you a map of your face , I honestly doubt you'd be able to find your nose. I tried to shine some light into a dark place (your thinking) and what do I get back? Pure un-researched , uneducated rhetoric . If you had bothered to read the link you might have found out that Bin Laden was not and still is not the leader of the Taliban , but merely a figure within it.

Here's another for you:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/afghanistan/afghan_11-17-83.html

If you don't want to learn anything then don't , be perfectly happy to have full confidence in what others do in your name. You will then be very much like that other creature who buries his head in the sand - the ostrich , whose main method of communication is via his asshole.
 
Mandinka, jeeze the tone of that reply made me laugh. Welldone I love the last line.
The map on the face was classic.
Fuck the board is getting back to normal already.
Bouncer
 
You need to understand the anger of the people. This is their immediate response. The president and his father (the former president) have both stated that we should not generalize. A little Arab girl said after the attacks, "Does this mean they are going to knock down our school?" This attack was not on blacks, whites, muslims, jews, hispanics, asian, native americans, gays etc. This attack was on the United States. This includes all the so-called "ragheads" so many of us are so rudely calling our law abiding islamic brethren. Guess what? That is exactly what they want--to disrupt our freedoms!

As young folk are saying: "DON'T GO THERE."
 
big4rt

You're right ,
people are upset , and they're grieving , I honestly don't have anything against anyone , least of all the people of the U.S.A. which was founded on great beliefs. So please don't take any of my comments as being an attack on your people as a whole. I was upset earlier because of Derek Smallhorn (see Bouncer's post) , I have since found out he was a driver from Cork. I talked to a guy who spent 14 years in the army who told me all about the incident , I was pretty upset when I got back on-line.
 
Re: Plifter

Mandinka said:
If I drew you a map of your face , I honestly doubt you'd be able to find your nose. I tried to shine some light into a dark place (your thinking) and what do I get back? Pure un-researched , uneducated rhetoric . If you had bothered to read the link you might have found out that Bin Laden was not and still is not the leader of the Taliban , but merely a figure within it.

Here's another for you:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/afghanistan/afghan_11-17-83.html

If you don't want to learn anything then don't , be perfectly happy to have full confidence in what others do in your name. You will then be very much like that other creature who buries his head in the sand - the ostrich , whose main method of communication is via his asshole.
Click to expand...

And the Taliban is keeping this terrorist nice and safe. His ass has been wanted for a long time but the nice people of the Taliban won't give him up.
 
Now just what the fuck does this bit of drivel mean??!! I mean, what in goddamn Hell are you attempting say???!!!
Click to expand...

i was telling alll the people that don't know why palestinians are celebrating the reason they are. just an analogy apparently you didnt understand. this isnt a flame either- im just saying you must not have understood what i meant by that. I'll see if i can explain it better. When hitler and his troops were persecuting the jews, the jews were pleased that italy got bombed because italy was an allie of germany. they figure if italy gets taken out of the way it will weaken the germans and make them more succeptible* to losing the war. Now in modern terms- The Palestinians are persecuted by Israel, and we've been an aide to israel in this conflict for a while. So when they think we're being 'taken out' they also think that it's making israel more succeptible. Like i said, yes this is sickening, and yes they are wrong about us being 'taken out', but they do have a reason to be happy about this.


This thread really indirectly got off topic from my original post, doesn't anyone want to argue wiht me about anything that I said? After reading all of people's posts about nuking every country in the middle east i'd really think someone would be arguing with me....
 
Strong_man20 I risked making these two children fatherless to bring peace to your region of the world, so next time you feel like calling me a cock sucker. A little apprication from just one of you people would be nice. This was taken last Oct. when I was leaving for Lebanon
 
flick, the Italians were Fascist under Mussolini at the time, more than just the Jews were celebrating. Bad analogy. Thanks for clarifying - no flame intended, I just disagree.
 
I don't think these children thought I was a cock sucker either, that day I was simply 'Santa' !.

Bouncer
 
FLICKENU

There was a lot of bullshit on this thread. And some good stuff too.

Here's a fact:

Arab and Islamic leaders treat their people like shit. Despite tremendous oil wealth, most of the people of the Middle East live like shit. The only democracy in the Middle East is ISRAEL.

Arabs born in ISRAEL have MORE RIGHTS than in any other middle eastern country. ISRAEL is the only middle eastern nation where a native born Arab can vote for his OR HER leader. We know how the rest of the Middle East treats women.

Because so many middle easterners are so poor, they are angry. This anger is increased in the face of the extravagant wealth of their "leaders". The leaders need to deflect this anger, or they will be overthrown.

The leaders have re-directed this anger toward Israel and by proxy the US. Arabs in Israel are treated REALLY WELL compared to any "Islamic" country. Middle Eastern leaders have used Islam, a peaceful religion, to re-focus the anger of the middle east population.

Islam is effective because of its belief in an afterlife and the centrality of Allah. If you are poor, the belief in an afterlife provides solace, becuse you believe it will get better. It is true in America too - the "Bible belt" coincides with the "poverty belt" in general. Note also the prevalence of churches in poor urban areas.

If you believe in an afterlife, and you are dirt poor, being talked into becoming a suicide bomber is a few short steps, especially if your local cleric promises you reunion with your Creator.

You don;t see bin LAden on these planes. He;s rich. He's not going to give up his life for some cause. Thee are plenty of poor people to do that.

Middle Eastern leaders are perpetrating the worst kind of propaganda and hate on their people. This is the result. Every Middle Eastern leader who keep his people poor while amassing an oil fortune is guilty of this crime.

I hope we punish every single one of them.
 
Where is Bin Laden anyway?

If he had the brains to pull this terrorist act off, he'll surely have the brains to stay the hell out of Afganistan.

He has money. He can go to a lot of places.
 
Bin laden is in afghanistan, he has asylum there. Alot of places don't want him in their country, even though he does have money. Why risk having their country bombed on for x amount of money? It's not like he can just hide in another country safely. We have satellites that can read any license plate in the world right now, and thats just the half of it. we don't even know what other type of spy technology we have.
 
Iwant to start by saying Hats off to you bouncer.. :)
As for you flickenu,, here in America if you are found guilty of the aiding and abetting a criminal let alone a mass terrorist you will be held accoutable... So fuck you and fuck the Afghanistan government...and anyone who celebrates the suffering of the American people.. If you dont appreciate living in the land of the free get the fuck out:kaioken: This aint no third world shithole and were going to keep it that way... Dont like the reply here a $.25 call somebody who cares
 
As for you flickenu,, here in America if you are found guilty of the aiding and abetting a criminal let alone a mass terrorist you will be held accoutable... So fuck you and fuck the Afghanistan government...and anyone who celebrates the suffering of the American
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dumbshit. why don't you read my post and put some thought into it rather than blurting out the 1st thing that comes to mind? oh and by the way, thanks for the information about aiding and abetting, it was a real reality check. :rolleyes:



Dont like the reply here a $.25 call somebody who cares
Click to expand...

speak enlgish when you talk. In case anyone else couldn't understand this I believe he mean't- If you don't like my reply, here's a quarter, call somebody who cares.

By the way, I'd like to hear your take on all of this. Let me know what you think I'm sure it will be very provocative and well thought out.

To bouncer- way to represent your country. by the way, I like your boy's jacket.
 
Bouncer

You're just a 250lb., ball of fluff arent' you?
MattTheSkyWalker, I'd like to see you back up the claim that Arabs are treated better in Israel than anywhere else , I have yet to see a report indicating Arab violence by government instruments (in particular torture) against fellow Arabs.
 
Mandinka said:
You're just a 250lb., ball of fluff arent' you?
MattTheSkyWalker, I'd like to see you back up the claim that Arabs are treated better in Israel than anywhere else , I have yet to see a report indicating Arab violence by government instruments (in particular torture) against fellow Arabs.
Click to expand...

Sorry, Matt, but may I answer this?

Mandinka,

Are you serious? Are you that ignorant?

Hmmm... Let's see, I'll start in the west and move east.

Algeria - governmental retaliation against militants, who've slaughtered tens of thousands of civilians in the past decade, included unspeakable torture as well as murder.

Tunisia - constant struggle between el-Abidine's administration with some of the militants allied with the Islamic Brotherhood in Egypt. Cases of state-sponsored tortures and killings of these militants have been reported to Amnesty International.

Egypt - daily confrontations, between government troops and members of the Islamic Brotherhood in the cities that have elected (!) and allowed these militants to run their cities, have led to chaos and loss of innocent human life.

Syria - torture and murder of the Latakia separitists by the ruling Baath party since the early 1980's.

Do you want me to continue? There are many, many other examples of exreme brutality on the part of Arab governments. Unfortunately, people like you just want to point your finger at Israel and insist that the Jews are the source of all evil in the Middle East.

Do some research before you post.
 
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Stumpy

I can only assure you that I did not yet encounter reports from those places. Perhaps it is because of the times that we live in that current conflicts are given greater credence. I'll read up on each of those that you mention and get back to you. I had been made aware of some really brutal torture (electrode genital torture) which was widespread in an Israel controlled compound. If I am ignorant , then I can only say in my defence that I am (was) ignorant of my ignorance. Cheers.
 
Stumpy

Just one thing:
"Unfortunately, people like you just want to point your finger at Israel and insist that the Jews are the source of all evil in the Middle East".
You Sir are certainly ignorant of me. I believe no such thing (but I do have reservations over their rule) and I challenge you to back up your claim.
 
Mandinka said:
I can only assure you that I did not yet encounter reports from those places. Perhaps it is because of the times that we live in that current conflicts are given greater credence. I'll read up on each of those that you mention and get back to you. I had been made aware of some really brutal torture (electrode genital torture) which was widespread in an Israel controlled compound. If I am ignorant , then I can only say in my defence that I am (was) ignorant of my ignorance. Cheers.
Click to expand...

Mandinka,

Most of the information that I've provided is found in political journals that are not geared towards the amateur observer. However, if you have access to a decent university library (and have the time and desire :)), you can find this info.

As for the electrode genital torture in an Israeli compound, I think you're talking about the Khiam prison in southern Lebanon that was set up during the occupation of that country. It was an Israeli judicial commission that conducted an investigation regarding the methods used by the IDF at Khiam and found out that the methods were brutal and inhumane. Just goes to show that the Israeli political infrastructure allows serious and just investigations (according to international law) that preserve the checks and balances of a true democracy. I cannot say that for most of the Arab countries.


Mandinka said:
Just one thing:
"Unfortunately, people like you just want to point your finger at Israel and insist that the Jews are the source of all evil in the Middle East".
You Sir are certainly ignorant of me. I believe no such thing (but I do have reservations over their rule) and I challenge you to back up your claim.
Click to expand...

Forgive me for putting words into your mouth - I was out of line when I said that (I was actually thinking of someone else on this board while I was typing it up).

What kind of reservations do you have over their rule?

I'm not going to deny that right-wing elements don't exist in Israel, nor am I going to proclaim that everything that the Israeli government does is hunky-dory and understandable. They're a government, and as such they're prone to all the problems that accompany such an infrastructure.

I just object to the application of a double standard when it comes to the Israeli-Arab conflict - both sides in this conflict have to be meticulously examined and held accountable in order for peace to happen. There are many different political groups and parties in Israel that have a radically different approach (as opposed to the right) to the ongoing conflict, but there are far, far fewer such grass-roots organizations and parties on the Palestinian side (I'm not blaming them; I understand why it's the way it is.) When more such parties begin to form among the Palestinians, then there'll be real peace.

In any case, the situation is far more complicated than that; I just wanted to offer my .02.

I also would like to apologize for the tone of my first post - I put you on the defensive. That was clearly not the intent. Sorry.
 
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Stumpy

First ,
thanks for the sincerity (and content) of your reply , it is always good to know that one is conversing with individuals who despite the closeness of the subject matter to their hearts are able to respect one another.
You are correct - it was Al-Khiam that I had direct knowledge of , you are further correct that the Israeli judicial system found against the prison and it was closed - now it is a tourist centre (essentially for Arabs) much like those used to expose Nazi persecution. But to suggest or even to imply that Israel is a "peace-loving" democracy is to be blind to the facts. Torture has been authorized in that country from the highest in command:
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0795/9507025.htm
But no-one has been punished for these actions , least of all the government , I do not accept your contention that such things are inevitable due to infrastuctural issues.
I am from such a country where the poverty-stricken oppressed and tortured eventually managed to achieve self-determination. Thankfully we did not and I hope will never seek retribution for what occurred , but such achievements (of freedom) did not occur until the World itself was forced to observe the misery that our captors had created. I think that it obvious that production of a suitable court system/ education system (in Palestine) and police force is impossible underneath such a climate that exists at present. It certainly was in our case.
Anyway I do have access to one od the largest University archives in Europe so I'll investigate your previous claims.
Yours respectfully....
 
oh fucking great another fucking post about, "how knowledgable i am and how stupid you are!" if your such a goddamn expert why arent you working with the foreign national affairs office? im sure they could use your help right now!
 
Mandinka said:
First , thanks for the sincerity (and content) of your reply , it is always good to know that one is conversing with individuals who despite the closeness of the subject matter to their hearts are able to respect one another.
Click to expand...

I try to be respectful - it doesn't make much sense to be belligerent when discussing such things with levelheaded people.


Mandinka said:
You are correct - it was Al-Khiam that I had direct knowledge of , you are further correct that the Israeli judicial system found against the prison and it was closed - now it is a tourist centre (essentially for Arabs) much like those used to expose Nazi persecution. But to suggest or even to imply that Israel is a "peace-loving" democracy is to be blind to the facts. Torture has been authorized in that country from the highest in command:
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0795/9507025.htm
But no-one has been punished for these actions , least of all the government , I do not accept your contention that such things are inevitable due to infrastuctural issues.
Click to expand...

I did not say "peace-loving" - the term I used was "true." You cannot deny the fact that only in a democracy such an investigation can actually take place. Sure, the highest level of command in the IDF sometimes border on the extreme right-wing, however, there are limits as to how far they can go. This cannot be said of any Arab government. Plus, Israel has to behave accordingly when it comes to certain situations. Israel is not located next to Denmark or Sweden - the rules of engagement are very different in the Middle East.



Mandinka said:
I am from such a country where the poverty-stricken oppressed and tortured eventually managed to achieve self-determination. Thankfully we did not and I hope will never seek retribution for what occurred , but such achievements (of freedom) did not occur until the World itself was forced to observe the misery that our captors had created. I think that it obvious that production of a suitable court system/ education system (in Palestine) and police force is impossible underneath such a climate that exists at present. It certainly was in our case.
Anyway I do have access to one od the largest University archives in Europe so I'll investigate your previous claims.
Yours respectfully....
Click to expand...

I applaud the bravery and determination of the Irish people, but I would like to remind you that Israel is not located in northwestern Europe. The problems that they face, be they geo-political, military, or socio-economic, are unique to the Middle East and require the Israelis to adopt certain methods of dealing with these problems that would not be accepted by the Scandinavians or other northern Europeans. Let's not forget that.
 
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Re: Bouncer

Mandinka said:
You're just a 250lb., ball of fluff arent' you?
MattTheSkyWalker, I'd like to see you back up the claim that Arabs are treated better in Israel than anywhere else , I have yet to see a report indicating Arab violence by government instruments (in particular torture) against fellow Arabs.
Click to expand...

That's a solid 250 Mandinka. :-) And I never indicated any personal disrespect, just disagreement with your points.

I know that the Israeli government has authorized torture as a means of discovering enemy information. Never said they did everything right, or even most everything.

At the end of the day, Israel is still the only country that allows its citizen Arabs the right to vote.

Thanks Stumpy for the other info.
 
Matt , Stumpy.

Just back in for a night out drinkin - no women (as usual).
Anyway , respect to you both. I'm happy to accept that there are (probably more than) two sides to this particular story.
Although , though I say it half tongue-in-cheek , I think that many "great" British politicians (Wilson, Churchill etc.) would consider the reason why the occupation of our little plot of land ultimately failed to be precisely the belligerence of the natives!
Which is half the reason why we fight so much amongst ourselves (my opinion).
Anyway Stumpy I was again being cheeky when I used the term "'peace-loving' democracy" since it has sadly become such a cliche.
Sleep well all.
 
SpongeBob

If you had bothered your balls to read this thread you might have realised that I accepted that I might not know as much about the situation as I thought I did. Anyway , I sincerely doubt knowledge of areas affects the chances of success or failure in the diplomatic corps., at least not from the cursory experience I have with diplomats. (One of them is my Dads best friends , another was my landlord and the Irish ambassador to Mexico).
 
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