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GH,IGF,Test,Slin,T3:Satellite Assault!

majutsu

Well-known member
GH, IGF, Test, slin, T3: Satellite cell assault

I am going to discuss the basics of making muscles bigger. This is a little Christmas tutorial :santa:

Muscle cells are fixed in number. Though there is some speculation that muscles may increase in number in adulthood under very unusual conditions, the overall amount of this would be very low. The major way for your muscles to get bigger, therefore, is for the muscle cells to increase in size.

The size of a muscle cell is limited by the number of nuclei available. Think of the nuclei as centers of government. If the muscles try to outgrow the number of available government buildings (nuclei), chaos ensues at the fringes of the empire. The muscle in this chaos cannot even initiate an organized contraction, and the size is short lived and dysfunctional. The size of a muslce is therefore limited by a nuclear-cytoplasmic ratio.

In order for the muscle to grow, therefore, satellite cells (which hover around the muscle for repair purposes) need to fuse to muscle cells, donating their nuclei, or government centers, to the cause of building bigger muscle. Any button we can push to increase the fusion of satellite cells to muscle cells will make us bigger. We shall examine these causes in turn, laying out the full tactical assault on these satellite cells.

First of all, we have steroids, particularly androgen receptor agonists. The model here will be testosterone. Anyone who doesn't know about the androgen receptor and how the different steroid profiles come to be should read my tutorial on steroids from last year this time steroid primer .

Androgens stimulate myogenesis (or the making of muscle mass), but we did not know until recently how this exactly was accomplished. Because testosterone promotes the fusion of satellite cells into muscle, it was hoped that AR would be expressed in satellite cells in the skeletal muscle. In an amazing recent study [J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Oct;89(10):5245-55] AR expression was evaluated by immunohistochemical staining, confocal immunofluorescence, and immunoelectron microscopy in sections of the quadriceps (vastus lateralis) from healthy men before and after treatment with high doses of testosterone enanthate. Satellite cell cultures from human skeletal muscle were also tested for AR expression. In this study, AR protein was expressed predominantly in satellite cells! In fact, many of the nuclei donated by the satellite cells and now incorporated in the muscle also demonstrated AR immunostaining, showing that the AR binding probably guided or was instrumental in the fusion process. To pound the proof in the dirt, AR mRNA and protein expression in satellite cell cultures was confirmed by RT-PCR, reverse transcription and real-time PCR, sequencing of RT-PCR product, and Western blot analysis!

In short, any AR-steroid (test-deca-primo-eq-tren) will activate the AR receptor on satellite cells leading to bigger muscle. Playing with the different anabolics would result in more or less tolerable AAS stacks for certain individuals, depending on their needs. But we can make a long story short by saying that 0.5-2g of testosterone per week would probably maximize the AR receptor mechanism on satellite cells for most beginning to intermediate bodybuilders.

Next, lets look at GH. GH is released from the anterior pituitary. In the liver (with involvement of insulin), GH results in the secretion of IGF-1 into the bloodstream. The IGF may then distribute to the muscle or other tissues. IGF-1 acting on the muscle also encourages the differentiation of satellite cells by the IGF-Receptor. [J Cell Physiol. 2004 Sep;200(3):387-94.] GH also acts directly on the muscle to causes the local release of IGF (not related to secretion from the liver). Therefore GH, both directly and through IGF, acts on satellite cells to make bigger muscle. See the diagram below for all the latest details. [Endocrine Reviews 17(5), 1996, 481)

ghmapbig0sw.png
 
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As you can see, IGF-Binding Proteins, namely IGFBP-3, can inhibit the secretion of IGF-1 from the liver dramatically. Also, other IGF-BPs can inhibit the function of IGF dramactically. Furthermore, GH related IGF is going to be insulin limited as well. So, because of Binding proteins and the limits of insulin, it would be nice to have IGF activation of satellite cells without these problems. That is where IGF-1-R3 comes in. It is an analogue of IGF-1 which lasts longer, making less injections per day, and does not bind to any binding proteins (especially the devastating IGF-1_BP3). [J Cell Physiol. 2004 Sep;200(3):387-94.] Therefore, R3-IGF-1 would be part of our satellite assault for sure!

Insulin itself is a very close analogue of IGF-1, hence the commonality of names. It has good activity at the IGF-Receptor. Also, it maximises the benefits of GH. Insulin should also be a part of our arsenal.

Also, T3 and thyroid hormons in general also increase the binding of satellite cells. I will discuss this at length in a part three.

Therefore, the maximal assault is:

Test (0.5-2g ew substituted with primo/eq/tren/nandr)
GH (2-8 IU ed)
IGF-R3 (20-120mcg ed)
slin (8-20IU/ed divided)
T3 (25-100mcg/ed)

The compounds are to be added in order, when truly experienced. A compound would be added after complete familiarity with the previous level at the top of the dose range. A new compound would be started at the lowest dose range and increased as tolerated and needed. I myself am only between levels III and IV at this time.
 
Sooo... if we do AAS and HGH together (and work out, of course), make a lot of satellite cells fuse into our muscles thus giving them more nuclei that makes supports making this relatively fixed number of muscle cells larger -- I got that part.

1) What happens when the AAS/HGH is suspended? Do the nuclei that did fuse die over time?

2) What about when we take long breaks (i.e. 3-6-12 months) from lifting? Are those nuclei still laying in wait in those cells, waiting for stimuli to get big again?

If this is the mechanism for some sort of long-term "muscle memory", it would be quite exciting. All I know is that so many people will comment about how quickly they raced back to their old lifting maxes once resuming their workout routine.
 
Number 2 of yours is a fascinating hypothesis MrPlunkey. Well done! I don't think this basis for muscle memory has been proven, but that is a damn fine idea right there. That seems very likely to me.
 
Lumberg said:
DAmn good post bro.

Am I seeing things, or is there a picture of a man with his meat tucked between his legs like a warped out vagina in your avatar...?
 
Good stuff majutsu, this is what im going to try in 2005. Just a bit confused about the injection timing for GH, IGF-1 and slin.

I have taking GH and slin (humalog) before no problem but can Igf-1 be injected at the same time, or should that be done at a different time of day?
I always use a blood glucose monitor but id like to know the safest way of combining these.
 
escher said:
Am I seeing things, or is there a picture of a man with his meat tucked between his legs like a warped out vagina in your avatar...?

Exactly.......it's his "mangina"....:lmao:

We've been giving him shit non-stop 24-7-365 to change that shit....

Even Spellwin wants it changed... ;)





DIV

:chomp:
 
Anyway, unclebully, I like test and GH. But instead of insulin, I prefer dianabol, as it has insulin like properties, and is much safer from a hypoglycemia point of view. Plus, it also has "feel-good" benefits and increases nitrogen retention for further anabolic activity.

Also, I like meth-GH (the 192) as it is cheaper, is NOT shown to have more sides, and while a few antibodies are produced in some individuals, they don't seem to lower the effective dose or affect treatment outcome. Actually, some GH studies in fit individuals show better effectiveness of met-GH. Kexing makes a good met-GH. Jino makes a famous r-GH (191) which is most excellent too.

So I would run test 1.5g + dbol 40ed + 4IU ed met-GH. Then, as spring nears for my show, I might consider changing anabolics to primo and tren, continuing the met-GH (but maybe switching to r-HGH to lower GH antibodies for a while), adding IGF-1 at 40ucg ed, and changing dianabol to winny. Right before the show, 50ucg ed T3 can be added with Adipex to assist dieting and +- clen. THIS IS NOT FOR THE BEGINNER AND IS TOTALLY THEORETICAL.

GH is best administered at night for me. While bi-daily dosing is ideal, it is a daily grind, and makes me struggle with daytime fatigue. The difference in daily, bi-daily or eod dosing in trials was minimal. Insulin would be taken with GH, after a workout, allowing time to eat. IGF is best at night too, for the same fatigue reasons, although twice a day is significantly better on IGF if you can tolerate it.

And if you are going to mess around with insulin, I would strongly suggest investing in a glucometer. It's a lot cheaper than a coffin.

I hope that helps.
 
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majutsu said:
Anyway, unclebully, I like test and GH. But instead of insulin, I prefer dianabol, as it has insulin like properties, and is much safer from a hypoglycemia point of view. Plus, it also has "feel-good" benefits and increases nitrogen retention for further anabolic activity.

Also, I like meth-GH (the 192) as it is cheaper, is NOT shown to have more sides, and while a few antibodies are produced in some individuals, they don't seem to lower the effective dose or affect treatment outcome. Actually, some GH studies in fit individuals show better effectiveness of met-GH. Kexing makes a good met-GH. Jino makes a famous r-GH (191) which is most excellent too.

So I would run test 1.5g + dbol 40ed + 4IU ed met-GH. Then, as spring nears for my show, I might consider changing anabolics to primo and tren, continuing the met-GH (but maybe switching to r-HGH to lower GH antibodies for a while), adding IGF-1 at 40ucg ed, and changing dianabol to winny. Right before the show, 50ucg ed T3 can be added with Adipex to assist dieting and +- clen. THIS IS NOT FOR THE BEGINNER AND IS TOTALLY THEORETICAL.

GH is best administered at night for me. While bi-daily dosing is ideal, it is a daily grind, and makes me struggle with daytime fatigue. The difference in daily, bi-daily or eod dosing in trials was minimal. Insulin would be taken with GH, after a workout, allowing time to eat. IGF is best at night too, for the same fatigue reasons, although twice a day is significantly better on IGF if you can tolerate it.

I hope that helps.

Yes that helps thanks.
Ill be using jinotropin and gensci IGF along with a gram of test. T3 and clen might be added if I felt the need.
Would anavar work in place of dbol or not? I dont really like dbol sides myself.

I would be taking GH/humalog at 6:30pm (post workout) then Igf-1 before bed at say 10:00pm. Would that be reasonably safe as I wont be able to take my blood sugar when im sleeping?
 
Good choice on the humalog. Here is the info for Eli Lilly:

Insulin lispro is a rapid-acting analogue of human insulin. Due to its quick onset of action, insulin lispro should be given within 15 minutes of a meal. Insulin lispro is created by inverting the natural Pro-Lys sequence in human insulin at positions 28 and 29 in the C terminal portion of the B-chain. This change in amino acid sequence slightly modifies the physicochemical properties of the molecule relative to native human insulin in such a manner that insulin lispro self-associates less avidly and dissociates into its monomeric form more rapidly than regular insulin. As a result, insulin lispro is absorbed more rapidly than regular soluble insulin from s.c. sites of injection and also has a shorter duration of action.

S.C. injected regular insulin typically results in serum insulin concentrations that peak later and remain elevated for a longer time than those following normal pancreatic insulin secretion in nondiabetics. When regular insulin is used to control postprandial blood glucose, adequate control is often not achieved because the amount of regular insulin needed to normalize postprandial glucose excursion often leads to late hypoglycemia. By producing more rapid and higher serum insulin concentrations with a shorter duration of activity (2 to 5 hours), insulin lispro decreases glucose excursion during and after meals with less chance for hypoglycemia.

The reversed sequence of lysine and proline in insulin lispro, is identical to that on human IGF-1's B-chain. The incidence of self-association with IGF-1 is known to be lower than observed with human insulin. Incorporating this IGF-1-like feature into the human insulin molecule markedly changes the physicochemical behavior of insulin lispro but does not significantly alter its pharmacodynamic action because the terminal part of the B-chain does not participate in insulin's interaction with the insulin receptor. In vitro experiments showed that insulin lispro interacts with the insulin receptor much like regular human insulin does. Although binding to the IGF-1 receptor is higher than for regular human insulin (´1.5), it is significantly less than that of IGF-1 itself (more than 1 000 times less) and does not promote cell growth in biological assays to any greater extent than human insulin.


Just to be safe, I would give myself 5 hours before bed, but your plan looks solid.
 
majutsu said:
if you are going to mess around with insulin, I would strongly suggest investing in a glucometer. It's a lot cheaper than a coffin.

CLASSIC SHIT, MajutsuNugg.....

;)





DIV

:chomp:
 
Ok in that case i'll take igf-1 in the middle of night as I always wake up for a protein shake about 2:00am.
This should be interesting! Hoping to get in the best shape of my life after this one.
 
That sounds great, unclebully. I wish I had GenSci IGF, I trust their quality. :) The jins are great.
 
Awesome thread. Just what I was looking for. I'm on GH, Slin, Dbol, Test, and NPP. Was curious about one thing.

What are opinions about eating around the time of GH injection. If you inject GH and insulin right after a workout, won't the post workout meal mess up the GH?
 
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