True, but the real deal guts are mostly thought to be a results of excessive dosages right? Meaning that supplementing even 3-4 ius isn't far removed from typical nat. production which is 2 ius I think. I'm guessing problems wouldn't appear under 6-8 ius, but its a major guess. As Mak. said, its gonna vary a great deal so one has to be aware. That said, the pro guts are probably from unreal daily gh, just look at the supposed pro cycles posted lately. I've heard even higher gh number too. Talk about a gear bill.