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Gen. Franks is a moron!

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~HOUNDOG~

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He's left his flanks completely undefended, has not put any defense for the supply lines and is sending choppers into areas where they should not be. What the fuck? Ever heard of lessons learned from past wars franks? Idiot. Not to mention the lack of armor he requested to bring into Iraq. Seen the apache that was shot down? Why has it not been blown up? That disturbs me.
 
~HOUNDOG~ said:
He's left his flanks completely undefended, has not put any defense for the supply lines and is sending choppers into areas where they should not be. What the fuck? Ever heard of lessons learned from past wars franks? Idiot. Not to mention the lack of armor he requested to bring into Iraq. Seen the apache that was shot down? Why has it not been blown up? That disturbs me.

According to you he might be a moron but his record speak for himself..

What is your rank, btw?
 
I'm a civilian. Don't get me wrong I do think he is doing a good job but he has made some very basic mistakes that no general should be doing. Why do you think those mechanics got captured? No protection of supply.
 
Mistakes were made,are made and will be made...

He is away of schedule anyway in his advance to Bagdad.. He deserve credit for this!
 
I've got to agree that we have made some mistakes, but I'd wager that the general had a greater grasp on battlefield tactics before he was 21 than all of us here combined.

The fact that an armed apache is just chillin on the ground is disturbing...
 
He has made good porgress; great porgress. He deserves credit for this but at what cost has that progress been made? We got 36 apaches shot to shit yesterday attacking the medina republican guard; they could have carpet bombed them and not wasted precious choppers into and unfair battle.
 
Hound, those guys know a lot more than we do. I can sy from here to just nuke eevrything and it'll make evrything better and theoretically, it will, but in actuality, well, that's a difefrent story.
 
Our aircraft are also taking heavy AA fire from cities and populated areas but we cannot shoot back into them because of rules of engagement. I am concerned we wil have another vietnam type setback because of these rules. We will most likely win but we need to buck up and get dirty with these people.
 
The lack of infantry is causing problems. The armored infantry push toward baghdad has flanks unprotected because the Marine expeditionary units are behind mopping up. The 1st armored and 1st infantry div from germany should be sent over to Iraq ASAP. It might get ugly now folks, so beware. Franks has fucked up.
 
OTHER APACHES WERE SENT TO DESTROY IT BUT ENCOUNTERED HEAVY RPG FIRE.....HAD TO RETREAT.

THE SUPPLY LINE THAT WAS ATTACKED FELL BEHIND ITS TANK SQUADRON AND TOOK A WRONG TURN THUS RESULTING IN AN AMBUSH.

THE APACHES WERE SENT IN, ALONG WITH SCOUT CHOPPERS, TO WEED OUT THE HIDDEN UNITS AND IDENTIFY THEIR POSITION.

LACK OF ARMOR......LOL.





KAYNE
 
Im no tactical war buff, but heres an applicable article for the thread.........



Franks' War Strategy in Iraq Deemed Full of Risks
Mon March 24, 2003 03:29 PM ET
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle....CRBAEZSFEY?type=focusIraqNews&storyID=2439233

By Will Dunham
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. commander Gen. Tommy Franks is electing to bypass some Iraqi forces and not occupy key cities in the dash to Baghdad, raising questions about leaving behind dangerous enemy fighters and chaos in urban areas in the wake of his advancing troops.

Military analysts said on Monday that Franks, the head of U.S. Central Command, may be taking unnecessary risks in the strategy he is employing, including stretching supply lines, allowing concentrations of enemy forces in the rear of his advancing troops, and using an invasion force that simply may be too small for the task at hand.

"The force is so light that it probably has the lowest ratio to enemy forces of any major ground campaign we've fielded in the last century," said military analyst Loren Thompson of the Lexington Institute think tank in Virginia.

In essence the United States is attacking a dozen Iraqi divisions with two divisions of its own, he said. Divisions generally are composed of roughly 15,000 troops.

"Normally with a ground force of this size going up against a ground force the size of the Iraqis, one doesn't prevail quickly," said Thompson, who still foresees a decisive and swift victory for the U.S.-led forces. "Can air power compensate for that? It's going to be interesting to watch."

Franks, during a briefing in Qatar on Monday, said invading U.S. troops have moved rapidly toward the Iraqi capital and "intentionally bypassed enemy formations," including paramilitary forces, in southern Iraq.

Iraqi forces in the rear of the advancing U.S. troops already have drawn blood.

For example, an Army supply convoy that apparently took a wrong turn near the southern city of Nassiriya on Sunday was ambushed by irregular Iraqi forces, leaving 12 U.S. soldiers missing. Videotape of five of them being interrogated was shown on Iraqi government television, along with grisly footage of corpses, apparently those of the other missing Americans.

Franks said "you can expect that our clean-up operations are going to be ongoing" in the days ahead, saying Iraqi forces can be expected to "mill about to create difficulties."

"We'll fight this on our terms," Franks added.

VULNERABILITY OF SUPPLY LINES

Analysts said the U.S. strategy requires the invading troops arriving at Baghdad to be at the end of a 300-mile supply line.

"We're watching the flanks with the full realization that we are stretched out somewhat," said retired U.S. Rear Adm. Stephen Baker of the Center for Defense Information in Washington, who played a key role on an aircraft carrier battle group in the 1991 Gulf War. "The vulnerability of supply lines has been looked at with extreme intensity."

Another consequence of electing not to occupy cities and towns left in the rear of the advancing army is the possibility of civil unrest, looting and strife in those areas.

A U.S. defense official, who asked not to be identified, said American forces can adequately control some of these areas without actually occupying them. "There may be some populated areas where we're not interested in going street to street, building to building," the official said.

Thompson said one of the reasons for not occupying each and every city and town on the route to Baghdad is avoiding draining away forces needed for more critical battles ahead. He said there may be a breakdown in civil authority once invading forces pass through an Iraqi city or town.

"I think the United States would welcome a popular uprising in the wake of its forces against Saddam's people. But I doubt that was factored into the plan because Saddam's people are so heavily armed that it could result in a civilian massacre," Thompson said.

Asked whether U.S. forces opted not to occupy these places deliberately to allow ordinary Iraqis to rise up and exact revenge on President Saddam Hussein's local representatives, the defense official said, "Not at all. It's in keeping focused on what the military objectives are (advancing on Baghdad)."

The defense official said follow-on forces later may be assigned the task of providing security in these places.

Retired U.S. Army Gen. William Nash, who commanded an armored brigade in the Gulf War, said he hoped more forces would be made available soon to provide stability in territory in the rear of the advancing troops.

"I'm concerned about the necessary follow-on support forces to stabilize and then provide immediate humanitarian assistance," Nash said.
 
KAYNE said:
OTHER APACHES WERE SENT TO DESTROY IT BUT ENCOUNTERED HEAVY RPG FIRE.....HAD TO RETREAT.

-----If one apache was downed why send more? An AIR-STRIKE with FIXED WING aircraft should have been sent.

THE SUPPLY LINE THAT WAS ATTACKED FELL BEHIND ITS TANK SQUADRON AND TOOK A WRONG TURN THUS RESULTING IN AN AMBUSH.

----Supply lines can't keep up with advancing spear heads- it is a fact of war- they should have been guarded and weren't.

THE APACHES WERE SENT IN, ALONG WITH SCOUT CHOPPERS, TO WEED OUT THE HIDDEN UNITS AND IDENTIFY THEIR POSITION.

They didn't "weed out" hidden units they were sent directly into combat with the 2nd brigade Medina Reub Guard. A VERY strong and well-trained and capable unit. They should have cluster bombed them before attacking or at least sent UAV's to recon first.

LACK OF ARMOR......LOL.


---There is a lack of armor. Serious one too.



KAYNE
 
I JUST REPEATED (FOR THE MOST PART) WHAT A LT. COL. WAS SAYING IN HIS BRIEFING. IF YOU DONT BELIEVE ME, CALL CENTCOMM AND TAKE IT UP WITH HIM.





KAYNE
 
well in their defense, they had to start this invasion a lot sooner than planned. there's a whole lot of troops and armor on it's way that was supposed to be deployed in turkey. They also would have liked to bomb iraq a lot longer before invading, but the fact that some oil fields started getting lit up forced our hand. Because Dick Cheyney and his buddies NEED that oil to remain unharmed.
 
50 Miles for the Capital in 5 days with 50 American British deaths. I think you need to quit playing armchair general and inlist in the Army if you think you have such great insight on directing combat missions.
 
LMAO. you have got to be kidding me.


every retired military analyst ive seen on all the news channels have done nothing but praise the operation thus far. these people have studied war for years. when i read threads like this one it really takes away my optimism about our societies intelligence. as hard as it is for me to say im starting believe 2thick and others on thier assessment on the matter. :(
 
Franks has made some basic and fundamental mistakes that cost Rommel his life, and the Germans the War.

Our supply lines are stretched razor thin, we have gone up against an enemy with 1:2 odds, attacking from only one front, the south. The west, north and east (understandably left ungaurded) is not good. The sorties being flown are far less than awe and shock.

By passing key cities is a fatal mistake even a rookie armchair general would not make. In fact, it was such a huge mistake, that the Marines have been left up to the task of securing these cities along the way to cover the east of Baghdad.

The abandoned Apache really bothers me. The fact that they sent in Apaches to play ground grunt also bothers me. The fact that the crew had time to take their helmets off and set them on the seats bother me.

Franks is a moron. We should have secured those airstrips to the west first and foremost. Then secured the southern and eastern Iraqi cities, Um Qasr, Basra, Nasirya, and what ever else was there. Established a well defended souther front so that our supply lines were not as long and vulnerable.

I see the problem as they wanted this to be and thought it would be an antiseptic 7 day war. And that is the wa they have been fighting it. Big mistake.

I have been saying for over a year this would not be easy, and take more than a week.

Sooner or later we are gonna have to suck it up and start bombing the suberbs of Baghdad as that is where the military is hiding, we are gonna have to start attacking the Republican gaurd even thought they have been hiding behind supposed civilians. If we do not we are gonna start getting our asses kicked big time because we are being nice in a business that is not.

I agree with houndog on this one 100%
 
This was is a little different. I think 40 fully armed Apaches are well equiped to do grunt work against poorly armed troops. I don't think it was shot down. I think is had a malfunction and landed. They are trained to take their helmets off and get the hell away form the aircraft ASAP. Also the rescue choppers turned around because they said they encountered heavy small arms fire. These choppers are made to handle small arms fire from below and don't really phase them.

40 Apaches went out and took out several troops in bunkers and 39 came back.. Not bad IMO......
 
They were so outgunned it wasn't funny! The fire fight lasted three hours and not one of them achieved their objective. So much for poorly equipped and trained.
 
I don't know anything about combat but I'm worried that they are going out of their way to be soft on the camel jockeys. If you're going to go into a war you have to protect your own troops first. If they have to kill 200 Allah loving bastards to save one American then by all means kill the towel heads.
 
Im getting real fucking sick hearing about this dude that took a wrong turn. Yes, I hope for his safety. No, we are not getting our asses kicked because of it. This is war, shit happens. There is "Zero" chances of putting together a plan to invade without having people killed. Period. Put your big map and little plastic play men and tanks back in their box and break out the monopoly board.
 
In war people get captured, killed and injured on all sides. The Americans have suffered little casualties, and if anyone thinks it's too many already than they need to get a grip. I expected more by now actually. However; as chesty agreed with me Franks is making historically bad mistakes that can be backed up by reading about the mistakes of past-generals. BLITSKRIEG WORKS BUT IT CAN AND IS BEING OVERDONE. Too quick is ineffective.
And why the fuck havent at least 20,000 troops been airdropped in the north? Or at least 2-4 marine expeditionary units been flown to the captured H2 airbase? We need a northern front ASAP. It is fucking us up not having this. A modern day "Operation market garden" is needed (without the failure lol).
 
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What do you think the 101st is doing? You really think our supply lines are in danger? One dude took a wrong turn and people start freakin out. Half are moving up from Kuwait by H2 &H3 to attack Bahgdad from the west. The whole other half is dedicated to protecting supply lines. Not to mention the massive air power we have protecting them also, plus constant drone survalance. We would detect any movement miles before they got close enough to danger supply lines.

They know where every vehicle is on the battle field. GPS positioning beacons are attached to each tanker, tank, Hummer, etc and it paints a perfect picture of where our troops are.
 
chesty said:
Franks has made some basic and fundamental mistakes that cost Rommel his life, and the Germans the War.


Rommel's 'mistake' was backing a plan to assassinate hitler that did not work. Strategic control of Nazi attacks, especially on Russia, was in the hands of Hitler.
 
So am I. And it was his defeat in Africa that forced him to commit suicide to save his family.

Yes, I think the supply lines are in grave danger. They are too long and thin with little defensive capabilities. The ony reason they haven't been attacked more is because of the Marines taking those three cities to the east and tieing up the Iraqi troops over there.

With the Marine General in the norht now, I think you will see some things happen. I hope for godsake that those Iraqi troops up there start getting their asses pounded with air strikes an sniper attacks. So far we have filmed them, and watched them do their thing, whatever that is with impunity.

There is another tactical mistake. What we should do is completely surround Baghdad, cutoff their electricity, water, food supply, etc. Wait it out for a month or two while bombing the living shit out of them. At the same time securing the rest of Iraq.

Then go in and attack, will still take losses, but a month or two without food, water, etc and your will to fight will diminish greatly.

50 some casualties is not many. But wait till it numbers in the thousands. Wait till this is here in August, when we have been gassed, etc. And we are still playing nice.

The second gas is used we need to drop a small thermonuclear warhead on downtown Baghdad, and call it a day.

I'll reiterate. Franks is an idiot.

Marines have still not retreated except for Chosen Resovoir hailed by most military analysts as one of the greatest military manuevers, and won the respect of the Chinese military.

Army was repelled the other day by ground forces because of improper use of military assets. IMO

I am by no means picking on the Army. They are doing a hell of a job. Its an Army Marine thing.

Historically speaking, this is the first time that the Marines and Army have fought side by side without one bitching about the other and who commands who. Vietnam, Korea, WWII was more like I am here, you are there, do your thing we do ours.

WWI, some Marine units were actually integrated somewhat into the Army as the Army didn't like the Marines. But that is another story.
 
KAYNE said:
MY PET MIDGET'S NAME IS ROMMEL. I CALL HIM BOB.




KAYNE

If you are done studying go to bed fool. You need the sleep to maintain your jackedness. Then again, i am awake and getting fucked up, so who am i to talk.
 
I am beginning to doubt some of the "political motives" that are beginning to surface with this offensive.

Yes, we want a regime change and their petroleum assests, but this whole "attack the leaders, not the civilians" is what will cost American soldiers (and coalition as a whole) lives.

Last time we fought a political war, we pulled out and let the red guys take over. We completely left the civilian population with their asses in the breeze and took some lead in the ass on our way out.

I personally think the air campaign was waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to short. We should have hit them long and hard with the sortes like we did the first time around. Mistakes were made in the Gulf war of 90-91 and god help us if we haven't learned from these past mistakes.

Now our troops are on the ground fighting the tough fight and giving their lives.

I hope that objectives are given priority over politics. Otherwise, this could get really ugly.
 
JohnyJuice said:


If you are done studying go to bed fool. You need the sleep to maintain your jackedness. Then again, i am awake and getting fucked up, so who am i to talk.


LOL.......IF I GOT THE PROPER AMOUNT OF REST AND HALF OF THE CALORIES I AM SUPPOSED TO, I'D BE 30LBS HEAVIER!!!





KAYNE
 
if baghdad falls the rest will follow.

its almost like if we were able to take out hitler and berlin only a couple of weeks after d-day.
 
If Baghdad falls no one else in Iraq will know or surrender. If everyone hasn't figured it out by now these ragheads are gonna fight! Right now the Marines are securing the second or third city it has come across that originally was supposed to be by-passed, but now it is a key Euphrates river crossing.

The 3/7 Calvary is quagmired in human shielding, and the Iraqis aren't playing fair. Time for politics aside and to stop trying to please the rest of the fucking world.

I hate to say it, but a solid chemical attack on the US troops will wake Bush and Franks up completely. Then stand by as a nuke or two lands in downtown Baghdad.

If not, then our fighting better become the most brutal in histroy, women, children, etc. These morons have to realize that even if they use human shields they are dead. Once they figure this out then the war will end quickly.

Right now they are counting on our softness and willingness to appease the rest of the world.

I am betting we will be fighting here hard core 6-12 months.
 
~HOUNDOG~ said:
He's left his flanks completely undefended, has not put any defense for the supply lines and is sending choppers into areas where they should not be. What the fuck? Ever heard of lessons learned from past wars franks? Idiot. Not to mention the lack of armor he requested to bring into Iraq. Seen the apache that was shot down? Why has it not been blown up? That disturbs me.

im assuming you played alot of the board game "risk"
 
~HOUNDOG~ said:
Our aircraft are also taking heavy AA fire from cities and populated areas but we cannot shoot back into them because of rules of engagement. I am concerned we wil have another vietnam type setback because of these rules. We will most likely win but we need to buck up and get dirty with these people.

Whilst I agree with you, the reason why allied forces can't get dirty is because it would threaten their claims that this is a war for the sake of the Iraqi people.
 
~HOUNDOG~ said:
Seen the apache that was shot down? Why has it not been blown up? That disturbs me.

If I was the General, I would not blow up the downed Apache until I was 100% sure that the pilots were no longer in the craft.

Sounds like they destroyed it as soon as the pilots went from missing to POW's.
 
chesty said:
I hate to say it, but a solid chemical attack on the US troops will wake Bush and Franks up completely. Then stand by as a nuke or two lands in downtown Baghdad.

If not, then our fighting better become the most brutal in histroy, women, children, etc. These morons have to realize that even if they use human shields they are dead. Once they figure this out then the war will end quickly.

Right now they are counting on our softness and willingness to appease the rest of the world.

I am betting we will be fighting here hard core 6-12 months.

What you seem to be describing is a war of military conquest rather than a war to liberate the Iraqi people which the US is claiming as its motivation.

The hundreds (if not thousands) of Kurds killed by Saddam's weapons are cited as reasons for disarming and overthrowing him. If US forces kill as many then their claim that they are freeing Iraqis from the death and tyranny of Saddam looks weaker and weaker.
 
When it comes down to it, you gotta break some eggs to make a cake. And since we cannot afford to take the time to determine civilian or military or US hater, we do what we gotta do. Better 60,000 dead in 1 second, than 1-2 million over several years or longer with no victory. War is hell, it is brutal and bloody, but if you are gonna play, take off the gloves and play. Liberation is not as easy as marching into France and announcing I am here. Mybe the Iraqi's in Baghdad don't want to be liberated. Ever thought of that? Then this has to become a war of conquest and rebuilding.
 
This is hilarious that people here are calling Franks an idiot. I was an airborne ranger myself in the Gulf War, but that doesn't make me an expert. Some people on here think their average military careers make them experts in military strategy. When you look at Franks in the press conferences, he looks almost giddy. You cannot compare strategies of WWII with current warfare. Its stupid to do that. Speed was the priority here and we have huge logisitics convoys right at Bagdad's doorstep in 4 days time. This will become know as one of the most impressive expeditions in history. Sure we are leaving smaller units behind to battle isolated troops in pickup trucks with machine guns. If we would have done it the way that's being proposed, we would have at least twice the casualties and not be anywhere near Bagdad right now. We're in a position to finish this war off quickly now. The only problems I see with our strategy has nothing to do with Franks. The extreme desire to not harm civilians or damage infrastructure has and will cause deaths of our troops. This comes from above Franks. Franks' operational strategy will be looked as as remarkable in history.
 
Leaving your ass uncovered and unprotected is not very tactically smart. The only reason we have not incurred casualties is because the Iraqi forces are in and around Baghdad. Leaving others to play guerilla warfare with us.

I don't find anything average about my Marine career,nor do I need to have an exceptional career to know good from bad. And yes, tactics from the past as well as mistakes will help you avoid future ones. Just look at the errors Hitler made in invading Russia twice. The same bone headed mistakes Napolean made.

We are making simialr mistakes akin to Vietnam. We are trying to win the hearts and minds, playing soft, etc. This can't happen.

Wait, when the seige of Baghdad commences, the US body count will start to multiply greatly and we will start having logistical supply problems.
 
chesty said:
Leaving your ass uncovered and unprotected is not very tactically smart. The only reason we have not incurred casualties is because the Iraqi forces are in and around Baghdad. Leaving others to play guerilla warfare with us.

[...]

We are making simialr mistakes akin to Vietnam. We are trying to win the hearts and minds, playing soft, etc. This can't happen.

Wait, when the seige of Baghdad commences, the US body count will start to multiply greatly and we will start having logistical supply problems.

I agree with you (see my post above).

We cannot fight a political war. It must be military objectives first, politics last.
 
chesty said:
Leaving your ass uncovered and unprotected is not very tactically smart. The only reason we have not incurred casualties is because the Iraqi forces are in and around Baghdad. Leaving others to play guerilla warfare with us.

I don't find anything average about my Marine career,nor do I need to have an exceptional career to know good from bad. And yes, tactics from the past as well as mistakes will help you avoid future ones. Just look at the errors Hitler made in invading Russia twice. The same bone headed mistakes Napolean made.

We are making simialr mistakes akin to Vietnam. We are trying to win the hearts and minds, playing soft, etc. This can't happen.

Wait, when the seige of Baghdad commences, the US body count will start to multiply greatly and we will start having logistical supply problems.

I'm sorry that I used the word "average" referring to anybody's military career. It was a poor choice of words. However, General Franks and others know more about military strategy than most of us prior military will ever know. His strategy is effective given the political restraints he's under. I just get pissed when we're calling him "stupid" or a "moron." I truly don't think we've seen what our guys can do yet. Franks is holding things close to the vest. We've seen an uprising in Basra and I suspect we'll see something similar in Bagdad. In addiditon the Kurds will be fighting. These factors were planned for. We have about 11 casuaties at this point and we've executed a massive expedition. Obviously we're not hanging our guys out to dry. But like always there are going to be bullets flying both ways. If they get lucky they might hit us. But it will take total luck. Our strategy is sound.
 
I again ask you what the 101st is doing?????????

Again I tell you,, they are protecting the supply line, and a portion of them are going to attack Bahgdad from the West.

The war plans change almost everyday. Don't go off the plans from the start of the war which I assume you are, or you wouldn't post stuff like "our supply line is not protected" when they sure as hell are. Just don't be a dumbass and take a wrong turn away from the line and they will be more that fine.
 
manny78 said:
If Baghdad was bombed the same way as Dresde in 1945, the war would be over in 2-3 days.

More than 100,000 civilians, 3/4ths of them women, died Feb 13, 1945 in the RAF firebombing of Dresden. ("Only" 72,000 civilians were instantly incinerated in HIroshima.)

Are you suggesting that we kill a hundred thousand civilians in order to "liberate" the Iraqis?
 
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