Front-end loading simplified

[Andy13]

There's been a lot of talk about front-end loading recently. I dug these up in hopes that they would help clarify the purpost of a front end load.

The example is TE. Graphed are:
green-1200mg TE day1, 400mg TE E4D afterward
blue-800mg TE day1, 4 then 400mg E4D
red-400mg straight cycle.

Notice that the first two use the same amount of TE. That's 1600mg for the first week, then 800mg/week afterward. That's using an extra week's worth of TE right up front.. Now, compare that with the non-loaded cycle. It just about 30 days to reach the therapuric blood level attainable for 800mg/week when the cycle is NOT front-end loaded!!

What does all this mean? It means faster results, shorter cycles, more frequent cycles, and less wasted time.

I'll post a few more...

Andy

 

[Andy13]

200mgtp-then-400mgTEE4D.gif

Here's a graph representing a cycle consisting of 200mg TP EOD for one week followed by 400mg E4D TE. You can see from the picture that this is not an ideal way to cycle since there is a drop in blood levels upon switching from TP to TE.

It is compared to a straight 400mg E4D TE cycle.

 

[nautica]

Could you not figure out the proper balance and continue the TP until the TE has kicked in.

nautica

 

[Andy13]

Zyg and I have been pleading now for some time that using prop to "kick start a cycle until the longer esters kick in" is basically the same as a front end load with a single ester...

Here are the previous two front-end load schemes (1200mg on day 1, 400mg E4d afterward and 800mg day1,4 then 400mg E4D afterwards) compared with a common type of cycle where prop is used to "kick start the cycle until the longer esters kick in." In the later scheme, 100mg TP is used EOD for the first week. 400mg E4D TE starts on day one as well.

As you can see, this is very similar to front-end loading.. However, it is obvious that, because of the shorter half life of TP, blood levels fluctuate much, much more than the single ester (TE) front-end load.

For this reason, it is fair to say that front-end loading with a single ester not only accomplishes the same goal, but is superior to "kick-starting your cycle with prop until the longer esters kick in"

 

[Andy13]

tpload-compared.gif

.

 

[Andy13]

Could you not figure out the proper balance and continue the TP until the TE has kicked in.

nautica

Check out the third one. This is using 400mg E4D TE through and 100mg EOD TP for the first week...

This is about as good as it gets with using TP to kick start the cycle. Clearly, the best choice is the (green) 1200mg TE on day one, then 400mg E4D afterward. Of course the 1200mg does not need to be taken in the same shot.. You could even do 400mg TE ED for the first three days and then go to 400mg E4D for the rest of the cycle. It would look similar to the 1200mg on day one..

This also illustrates why I'm not in favor of splitting up the front load over the entire first (or first TWO weeks!?)..

Spreading the front-end load over two weeks nearly defeats the purpose.

Now, these graphs are with TE, and you can see how much time it would normally take you to reach max blood levels with a constant dose.. Imagine how much wasted time occurs when a constant dose of an AAS such as deca is used!!!

 

[SUST-MAN]

ANDY.....once again......a great post!

Someone please make this a sticky!

 

[SUST-MAN]

Andy, so if i wanted to do a cycle where i did an average of 750mg of enanthate per week....I'd do 1500mg day one....then 375mg E4D?

 

[Twitched]

Andy, obviously frontloading establishes the target "equilibrium" window of blood concentration, BUT.. for a first time cyclist.. do you think the natural up taper could be a good thing for resisting sides? I mean I'm wondering (I'm abotu to do my first real test cycle) if I shoot 1000mg week one (I'm gunning for 500mg/wk).. if my body is gonna go "holy shit whats going on" even more then with the natural up taped supplied by the depot..



Anyone have thoughts on this?

 

[mt]

Does this apply when you are stacking with a fast acting ester such as Fina when ED or EOD is require? Since you have to inject so often anyway wouldn't it make better sense to use a fast acting test like prop or even suspension since you can control it better being that it's in and out of your system faster? No front loading is necessary (except you should start a few days before your training cycle so that the compound is already active in your system). Perhaps best of all is to combine it with longer acting esters like Enanthate and Equipoise so that you have steady levels along with the ED or EOD spikes of Fina and Prop.

 

[FreakMonster]

I really can't see the diagrams but if I were to front load Deca how exactly would I do it? Assuming I want to do about 400mg a week.

 

[Andy13]

Andy, obviously frontloading establishes the target "equilibrium" window of blood concentration, BUT.. for a first time cyclist.. do you think the natural up taper could be a good thing for resisting sides? I mean I'm wondering (I'm abotu to do my first real test cycle) if I shoot 1000mg week one (I'm gunning for 500mg/wk).. if my body is gonna go "holy shit whats going on" even more then with the natural up taped supplied by the depot..



Anyone have thoughts on this?

There are a few ways to look at this.. When you take dbol at 50mg/day, you are "flooding" your body just the same as you would with a front end load.

Some report sides from front end loading.. But it hasnt' been clear if the sides are from the actual gear or additives such as BA..

Andy

 

[Andy13]

Andy, so if i wanted to do a cycle where i did an average of 750mg of enanthate per week....I'd do 1500mg day one....then 375mg E4D?

I used the example of 800mg TE. I would use 1200mg on day one and then go to the E3D or E4D dosing pattern.. Whatever you are most comfortable with.

But then again, that's ME.. Some people don't want to take that much test in one day.. It's no big deal for me.

 

[ROAD DOG]

Andy,great post!
You say that one reason for a front load is to shorten the cycles.So are you saying if you typically do a 10 week cycle,you will probably only need to run it for 8 weeks?Are you basically saying that by front loading for the first 2 weeks,you can shorten your cycles by 2 weeks in the end and end up with the same gains?

 

[George Spellwin]

Great post -- cool graph!

 

[Zyglamail]

Andy, obviously frontloading establishes the target "equilibrium" window of blood concentration, BUT.. for a first time cyclist.. do you think the natural up taper could be a good thing for resisting sides? I mean I'm wondering (I'm abotu to do my first real test cycle) if I shoot 1000mg week one (I'm gunning for 500mg/wk).. if my body is gonna go "holy shit whats going on" even more then with the natural up taped supplied by the depot..



Anyone have thoughts on this?

This whole post is largely due to a resurgance of frontloading questions that have come about since Andy's first great post. In that post which I think was a couple hundred posts long, it covered pretty much everything. It also stated frontloading is not for the novice.

However, to more thuroughly answer your question, you need to remember that just because you have 1000mg depot stuck in your glute (just an example, dont shoot that much at once or you will feel like crapola) 1000mg wont be "seen" by your system. It first has to be moved into the blood stream and then it has to be hydrolized (have the ester removed) for the test to even be of any use or have an affect. So, while it will definatly make the blood levels rise more steeply (and can possbly cause additional sides) blood levels are still generally in the range that the cycle would normally reach. For me, I suffer the most when hormone levels change. It doesnt seem to matter what the dose of AAS taken, the sides are the same and persist for about 2 weeks until my system gets accustomed, sides for me are basically just oily skin and acne. Then once again when the cycle end I go through the same thing for the next couple weeks, but during the majority of the cycle im fine.

 

[Zyglamail]

Andy,great post!
You say that one reason for a front load is to shorten the cycles.So are you saying if you typically do a 10 week cycle,you will probably only need to run it for 8 weeks?Are you basically saying that by front loading for the first 2 weeks,you can shorten your cycles by 2 weeks in the end and end up with the same gains?

Yep, thats exactly what he is saying.

 

[RICOSUAVE]

good info thanks!!!!!

 

[1Mistake]

I did 1000mg of QV cyp in 1 day- 3ccs in the glutes and 2 in the delts and I felt like SHIT for a couple of days..and I'm no novice!! I would break up the shots in a few days

J

 

[Andy13]

Does this apply when you are stacking with a fast acting ester such as Fina when ED or EOD is require? Since you have to inject so often anyway wouldn't it make better sense to use a fast acting test like prop or even suspension since you can control it better being that it's in and out of your system faster? No front loading is necessary (except you should start a few days before your training cycle so that the compound is already active in your system). Perhaps best of all is to combine it with longer acting esters like Enanthate and Equipoise so that you have steady levels along with the ED or EOD spikes of Fina and Prop.

This is a sore spot for me.. And it will never go away...

Using "Fast acting" AAS does NOT mean you can control you blood levels better

I'm afraid the myth will never go away. Say you injected 1500mg of TE. The HIGHEST blood levels you will see from that injection will occur within 24hrs afterward. Then blood levels only decline.

Fast acting drugs like prop and suspension are NOT "in and out of your system faster." All esters of testosterone are not active until they are de-esterified. Once this happens, ALL active testosterones have the same blood half life.

I think this myth came about from WAR.. But believe me when I say that shorter esters do NOT result in more controlled or 'even' blood levels than longer esters. The ONLY time shorter esters should be preferred is toward the end of a cycle to replace longer esters so that down time waiting to begin clomid can be shortened.. Or, shorter esters should be preferred if you are attempting a Robert's type 2-week cycle.


Andy

 

[Andy13]

I did 1000mg of QV cyp in 1 day- 3ccs in the glutes and 2 in the delts and I felt like SHIT for a couple of days..and I'm no novice!! I would break up the shots in a few days

J

Want to elaborate on that?

 

[##spiderbaby##]

I will elaborate a bit.

the cycle was an EQ/400mg/wk and CYP/600mg/wk 10 weeks.

I frontloaded 1600mg of the EQ over three days, it may have been two days. Its been awhile since this happened but I do remember the sides I had.

I also frontloaded 1200mg of the cyp in the same 2-3 day period.

at 2 weeks into it I absolutely was ready to go to the doctor. I was beyond sick. I did not feel like I had a "touch of the flu" but rather "I am going to die" ;/ I really felt that bad.

I remember talking to Huck and explaining the situation and basicaly we (he )came to the quick conclusion to stop the cycle. A week later I was at 100%.

I was convinced that frontloading sucks. Now however after a bit more experience, time and intelligence I believe I just over did it.

Not much of an elaboration but thats my sad little frontloading story.

Long story short, I think if you are new then dont over do it. I guess I also am having a hard time getting out of my head that a newbie to AS should go slow on the first cycle to see how they react it. I see both sides and agree with frontloading however I believe one needs to be reasonable and not over do it.

 

[mt]

"Fast acting drugs like prop and suspension are NOT "in and out of your system faster." All esters of testosterone are not active until they are de-esterified. Once this happens, ALL active testosterones have the same blood half life."

If I give myself a 200mg shot of suspension vs. a 200mg shot of enanthate are you saying that I will still have just as much suspension in my system as I would with enanthate?

" I think this myth came about from WAR.. But believe me when I say that shorter esters do NOT result in more controlled or 'even' blood levels than longer esters. The ONLY time shorter esters should be preferred is toward the end of a cycle to replace longer esters so that down time waiting to begin clomid can be shortened.. Or, shorter esters should be preferred if you are attempting a Robert's type 2-week cycle. "

Say for example I'm taking daily injections of suspension making for a weekly total of 700mg per week. For some reason I decide not to use any anti-e's and by the third week I begin to see signs of gyno. I immediately cease the suspension injections.

Same scenario except this time I'm using test enanthate. Are you saying that it wouldn't matter how this will effect my gyno reaction? Doesn't suspension leave the system faster making it more likely that the gyno symptoms won't get much worse as oppose to enanthate which because of the longer ester will keep the blood concentration levels higher than suspension for a longer period of time?

 

[Andy13]

If I give myself a 200mg shot of suspension vs. a 200mg shot of enanthate are you saying that I will still have just as much suspension in my system as I would with enanthate?

When you inject an ester, think of it as a depot, outside of your body, dripping free testosterone into your blood over time-- like an IV bag. When you inject susp, this does not happen. Your blood levels rapidly rise and fall.

Say for example I'm taking daily injections of suspension making for a weekly total of 700mg per week. For some reason I decide not to use any anti-e's and by the third week I begin to see signs of gyno. I immediately cease the suspension injections.

Same scenario except this time I'm using test enanthate. Are you saying that it wouldn't matter how this will effect my gyno reaction? Doesn't suspension leave the system faster making it more likely that the gyno symptoms won't get much worse as oppose to enanthate which because of the longer ester will keep the blood concentration levels higher than suspension for a longer period of time?

The highest (active/de-esterified) blood levels of testosterone are seen within 24hrs after you inject TE.. And blood levels only decline from there. In other words, when you inject TE, it's not like you have the whole 400mg of active test in your system. And it's also not as if you inject on monday, and then on thursday have the highest blood T levels from the shot.

As for gyno, it's kind of hard to say.. Some guys get gyno when they come off a cycle, and have very low blood T levels as compared to when they were on the cycle.

It can be argued that some sides from test are from greatly varied blood levels (spikes and drops). You would have to inject suspension several times a day to mimic the blood level "stability" that the enanthate ester provides (think IV bag).. I think it's arguable that mg/mg, t-suspension is much more problematic for gyno than TE

For these reasons, I disagree with the idea that someone is able to better control their blood-T levels with shorter esters or no esters at all. It is true that stopping suspension will result in faster elimination of test from your body than stopping TE.. But as I said before, if you suddenly wanted to stop the cycle, your blood T levels will only decrease from there.

Andy

 

[mt]

I guess what I'm getting at is that when using a fast acting ester like suspension or prop it's sort like using an oral. You can get your blood levels up quickly and when it's time to come off you can get them back down for your recovery period. Unless you front load, a longer acting ester takes a while for blood concentration levels to be built up before it has a positive effect and when you go off there is a longer lag period as the blood concentration levels slowly drop off. There's a longer period in which you don't have enough in your system for a positive anabolic effect but there's still enough to prevent HTPA recovery.

By better control I mean that with shorter esters, like orals, you can build up levels quicker and you can bring them down quicker.
When you say that shorter esters are not in and out of your system faster are you saying that, for example, when comparing a 8 week cycle of 800mg/wk of suspension with an 8 week cycle of 800mg/wk of cypionate that after your last injection of the cycle the blood levels a week later will be the same for both compounds? I would speculate that your test levels would be lower a week later after your last shot of suspension than it would be after your last shot of cypionate. The suspension being the shorter ester would be "out" of your system faster than cypionate.

 

[##spiderbaby##]

mt,

So far you and Andy are agreeing on everything except I believe he is stating that without properly timed multiple injections of suspension that your blood T levels are rising and falling rapidly.

Other than that it seems you are agreeing on the subject.

It would take a LOT of effort if not impossible to mimic the steady release effects of longer ester. Hence you will have T levels that are falling and rising possibly causing more negative side effects.

It seems to me that your point is that the T will be out of your system faster with suspension as opposed to TE. This is true but I think that Andy is basicaly indicating that you are not going to get even blood Test levels with suspension.

I know this is correct but I dont know if I helped answer what it is your looking for.

Anyways, I know what Andy is saying and what you are saying if I mucked things up, sorry.

 

[Andy13]

mt,

So far you and Andy are agreeing on everything except I believe he is stating that without properly timed multiple injections of suspension that your blood T levels are rising and falling rapidly.

Other than that it seems you are agreeing on the subject.

It would take a LOT of effort if not impossible to mimic the steady release effects of longer ester. Hence you will have T levels that are falling and rising possibly causing more negative side effects.

It seems to me that your point is that the T will be out of your system faster with suspension as opposed to TE. This is true but I think that Andy is basicaly indicating that you are not going to get even blood Test levels with suspension.

I know this is correct but I dont know if I helped answer what it is your looking for.

Anyways, I know what Andy is saying and what you are saying if I mucked things up, sorry.

That's exactly what I was saying.. Good looking out.

 

[danny x]

Looking at the frontloading chart on the first page that invovles 1200 then 400 every 3rd/4th day, I still notice spikes throught the cycle. In playing with a few charts/Calc and pluging in numbers I was able to reach an almost steady level without any dips. I front loaded with 500mg of TE and shot 100mg of TE every other day afterward(being the greatest release is seen within 24 hours, and decreases from there). The levels stayed pretty much around 500 to 485 through the entire cycle with out any major spikes. Can this be used in a real world situation or does it just work out on paper?

 

[Andy13]

Looking at the frontloading chart on the first page that invovles 1200 then 400 every 3rd/4th day, I still notice spikes throught the cycle. In playing with a few charts/Calc and pluging in numbers I was able to reach an almost steady level without any dips. I front loaded with 500mg of TE and shot 100mg of TE every other day afterward(being the greatest release is seen within 24 hours, and decreases from there). The levels stayed pretty much around 500 to 485 through the entire cycle with out any major spikes. Can this be used in a real world situation or does it just work out on paper?

Of course the more often you inject, the smoother the blood levels.. But there comes a point where the # of extra shots no longer yields much benefit. That's for you to decide. Actually, about a year or so ago I posted graphs on TE injection frequency. You're right, it is better injected EOD than E4D. But the purpose of the thread was to graphically show front loading, not so much the peaks and dips afterward.

Front end loading won't have an affect on blood level stability later in your cycle.. It's mere purpose is to boost you up to max levels asap.


Also, you were calculating the amount of esterified TE.. To get amount released per day, subtract one day from the next.

Andy

 

[danny x]

"Also, you were calculating the amount of esterified TE.. To get amount released per day, subtract one day from the next."

Forgive me for sounding a bit slow, but exactly what am I subtracting to get released per pay?

 

[Andy13]

"Also, you were calculating the amount of esterified TE.. To get amount released per day, subtract one day from the next."

Forgive me for sounding a bit slow, but exactly what am I subtracting to get released per pay?

Let's say you inject 500mg of some AAS with some halflife. 24 hrs after the injection, you have (say) 480mg left. Subtracting one day from the next, you get 20mg as amount released in that day.

Andy

 

[go_hard_80]

I will elaborate a bit.

the cycle was an EQ/400mg/wk and CYP/600mg/wk 10 weeks.

I frontloaded 1600mg of the EQ over three days, it may have been two days. Its been awhile since this happened but I do remember the sides I had.

I also frontloaded 1200mg of the cyp in the same 2-3 day period.

at 2 weeks into it I absolutely was ready to go to the doctor. I was beyond sick. I did not feel like I had a "touch of the flu" but rather "I am going to die" ;/ I really felt that bad.

I remember talking to Huck and explaining the situation and basicaly we (he )came to the quick conclusion to stop the cycle. A week later I was at 100%.

I was convinced that frontloading sucks. Now however after a bit more experience, time and intelligence I believe I just over did it.

Not much of an elaboration but thats my sad little frontloading story.

Long story short, I think if you are new then dont over do it. I guess I also am having a hard time getting out of my head that a newbie to AS should go slow on the first cycle to see how they react it. I see both sides and agree with frontloading however I believe one needs to be reasonable and not over do it.

bro i know the feeling, i frontloades omnas at 1250mgs wk#1 and ooh fuck was i sick my head felt like it was going to explode, runny nose, sore throat, cough, flem, chills, sweats, name it i got it man im glad thats over and the omnas are finally starting to give their kick

go_hard_80

 

[Zyglamail]

bro i know the feeling, i frontloades omnas at 1250mgs wk#1 and ooh fuck was i sick my head felt like it was going to explode, runny nose, sore throat, cough, flem, chills, sweats, name it i got it man im glad thats over and the omnas are finally starting to give their kick

go_hard_80

Thats where this not being for a novice comes in, you have to know your bidy and what you can get away with for a frontload. I spread my last frontload (1600mg/wk EQ AND 1500mg/wk test enth) out over 2 weeks and had no ill feelings at all and strength gians started end of the first week.

 

[1Mistake]

I felt exactly like the other guys...I had a flu-like 3 days and I felt like puking. The next time I'll just spread the shots over a couple of days,instead of doing 2 shots in 10 mins!!!

J

 

[Andy13]

I felt exactly like the other guys...I had a flu-like 3 days and I felt like puking. The next time I'll just spread the shots over a couple of days,instead of doing 2 shots in 10 mins!!!

J

This is interesting to me... I can't believe it's the actual AAS.. Probably injection volume or maybe additives in the AAS.. People pop 50mg dbol to start a cycle and don't have such problems..

Also, what about the guys who use suspension? That gets blood levels up there WAY fast.. Do they have these kinds of symptoms?

Nahh.. Still don't think it's the actual steroid.

 

[Zyglamail]

This is interesting to me... I can't believe it's the actual AAS.. Probably injection volume or maybe additives in the AAS.. People pop 50mg dbol to start a cycle and don't have such problems..

Also, what about the guys who use suspension? That gets blood levels up there WAY fast.. Do they have these kinds of symptoms?

Nahh.. Still don't think it's the actual steroid.

My guess would be the additives, primarily BA. I know that I was using anastrozole suspended in water, which of course needed BA to help suspend it, tasted like ass and gave me the worst headaches.

 

[serge]

zyg or andy, how would you front load eq, if you were to run 600mg/week for maintanance dose

 

[Zyglamail]

I cant speak for Andy, but I find doubling the dose for the first two weeks works well for me. So in your example taking 1200mg/wk for the first 2 weeks.

 

[Andy13]

zyg or andy, how would you front load eq, if you were to run 600mg/week for maintanance dose

What's the half life? I'd probably do something similar to the first example where the the first day would be 1200mg and then 300mg E4d..

Andy

 

[solidspine]

frankly it only makes sense

solidspine,

I always front load

 

[panerai]

Excellent post!

 

[Dr.RobertBanner]

Alright, I didn't read all the posts on this thread, so if someone already said this forgive me.

I like frontloading, works for me, no bad sides.

My advice is to double your weekly dose (of whatever long acting AAS) in the first week, BUT spread that amount out throughout the week i.e. : 800mg EQ a week, 1600mg in the first week as 4 400mg shots or whatever resonable # of shots are needed to get the required volume in using moderate sized 2-3cc shots.

I don't think jacking up levels quickly would "shock" your system more than a straight cycles gradual build up. You just saturate receptors quicker and get you cycle moving quicker, it's a more efficient use of your juice. We know that tapering off doesn't really work, so why would tapering up? Get jacked, make your gains, switch to fast acting stuff, come off quick and get right to recovering. It ain't rocket science folks.

That's my 2 cents.

 

[Andy13]

Alright, I didn't read all the posts on this thread, so if someone already said this forgive me.

I like frontloading, works for me, no bad sides.

My advice is to double your weekly dose (of whatever long acting AAS) in the first week, BUT spread that amount out throughout the week i.e. : 800mg EQ a week, 1600mg in the first week as 4 400mg shots or whatever resonable # of shots are needed to get the required volume in using moderate sized 2-3cc shots.

I don't think jacking up levels quickly would "shock" your system more than a straight cycles gradual build up. You just saturate receptors quicker and get you cycle moving quicker, it's a more efficient use of your juice. We know that tapering off doesn't really work, so why would tapering up? Get jacked, make your gains, switch to fast acting stuff, come off quick and get right to recovering. It ain't rocket science folks.

That's my 2 cents.

The thread summarized in a single post with a little attiditude on top of it..

That's good shit.

 

[hard]

Great info Andy ( once again)

How about frontloading the TE like you say, but pumping it up with lets say 100mg TP for the 1st 5 days to really bang your serum test levels up into the right concentration?

 

[Andy13]

Great info Andy ( once again)

How about frontloading the TE like you say, but pumping it up with lets say 100mg TP for the 1st 5 days to really bang your serum test levels up into the right concentration?

You can actually use ONLY the long ester and "bang you serum test levels up into the right concentration."

In theory, you can use TP to load and make the graph look just like it would with a single ester.. But, for several reasons mentioned earlier, the single-ester load is superior to using TP along with the long ester.

Andy

 

[Dr.RobertBanner]

The thread summarized in a single post with a little attiditude on top of it..

That's good shit.

LOL, thanks Andy.

 

[DownUnder23]

simple!